JV talks, sort of

[Dr. Maserati]

Hi Dr. M.,

Definitely I'll fix the post. But I've been unable to work out the phrase/quote that needs fixing??

Just let me know what you want me to do,

Argyle_Fan

It was post number 27 - you quoted sniper in your reply, but it came up with my username.

Also- yes, that is the Kimmage JV article - although where it got posted is hilarious. It's one way around the pay wall.

 

[pmcg76]

I had (and still have) myself convinced Saxo went there to try and get AC cleared. That it didn't work doesn't mean they didn't try. You won't find a single post where I claim he is going to get off. So pleazz


Doc, it's sniper, small /s/.

sniper and his ilk are unreal at taking anything minor and turning it into something huge even though they have no clue.

How many times have we heard Garmin are based in Girona because it is a doping haven. Lo and behold it turns out that this is unlikely considering the likes of Hamilton and other dopers had to travel to other destinations to see their doping doctors and receive their transfusions despite living in Girona. Even when they were based in Nice they were still doping. It didn't stop them so don't matter if they are based in Nice, Girona, Lucca or whatever.

I know one of the sticks frequently used to beat David Millar with is that he worked with a doping doctor Luigi Cecchini on his return, we now have it from three admitted dopers Riis, Hamilton & Jaksche(Dekker also?) that Cecchini had little or nothing to do with actual doping but was a fantastic trainer who only really gave training advice. Seems unlikely now that Millar was with Cecchini for doping reasons.

Allan Lim is another figure used to thrash Garmin. Floyd Landis has said that Lim had nothing to do with his doping other than help with logistics. That might damage Lim's cred but I don't think JV has ever claimed that he employs people with spotless resume's unlike SKY. The JV mantra has always been what happens in the past ends there when you join Garmin.

Inigo San Milan is another fellow with apparently dodgy credentials but there are actual posters on here who can personally vouch for the integrity of San Milan, yet it hasn't stopped the know-all crowd from attacking him despite not knowing anything about him.

Funny having recently finished Tylers book how some of the know-all posters here reflect traits akin to those dopers they loathe so much. They believe so self-assuredly in what they are posting that they actually believe it to be fact, like the dopers who believe so much in their lies they don't think they are actually telling lies.

 

[Benotti69]

Now, this is a perfect example of why JV would not stay here and why he rightly ridiculed some members...

I thought on the Sky thread you were insinuating it was Sky?
Which is it?
Oh, that's right you have no idea.

Who cares what i know Doc! Ashenden knows and if you read the story correctly doctor pedantic detail, you would have read that Ashenden said 'so called new age teams'. Now why would i put a post about Garmin in the sky thread. I also posted the same about what Ashenden said in the garmin/JV thread in the name of pedantic detail, you understand.

Do YOU know Lowe was doping? Or did you just make that up too?

No i did not say he was doping. it points to doping, as why would he be allowed to race if he was ill, his blood values were wrong and not from a sickness so it points to being to high over 50% so doping, i guess. Just a dot, you understand.

If you read the full email exchange between Lowe & JV it is clear that first JV knows about del Moral is when Lowe brings it up and JV is incredious - which one would expect if they did not want their rider going to a guy who JV knows all about.

JV refused to talk to Lowe. that is obvious. JV refused to meet his own rider that is obvious. It is also obvious to me it was about doping.

But that would destroy your and JVs myth as Ashenden has just destroyed it about Garmin being new age clean.

Why would JV engage with people like you when you don't know the basics and then misrepresent the facts?

IDGAF if Vaughters never posts in here again as i find him as repulsive as Brailsford, Bruyneel, Riis, et all the DS out there with their doping.

 

[Benotti69]

I think reading this as some slick PR trick to hide something is a bit silly.

My understanding is that D|ck Pound called for a truth and reconciliation commission.
Pat at the UCI called for the same, but was perhaps hoping to keep it in house and under his "able hands".
Now there was a UCI council meeting in Maastricht on Wednesday and JV said that it would be a good idea if WADA intervened and put the commission together.

Hence JV doesn't want the UCI to be able to hide anything.

Additionally he suggests a comprehensive database, which is a concrete suggestion of what steps one would need to take in this commission.

"Vaughters wants an independent tribunal to record a comprehensive database of the sports turbulent doping past so the truth can be fully acknowledged before moving on to a bright future."


As far as Ashendens comments, when I heard the term new age, Garmin is not the team that came to mind first.

Anyway, Ashendens " I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers even within ‘new age’ cycling teams."

To me does not necessarily imply that the Team is aware of it. It could be they are aware, but it could also mean they are not.

Anyway if this truth an reconciliation commission gets rolling, I expect some of these pockets to start leaking and finally revealing themselves.

As for all the talk of sky in the article, it is a British paper and the Telegraph is a "very British" paper, so I would not take that as anymore than nationalism for the readers. How much of that JV said and after what questions, would perhaps say more about the paper than JV.

to be pedantic like a certain poster.

Ashenden said 'so called new age teamS'

Garmin and Sky

 

[luckyboy]

I do wonder why JV never contacted Lowe for most of 2010.

That whole saga is quite opaque

 

[Benotti69]

I do wonder why JV never contacted Lowe for most of 2010.

That whole saga is quite opaque

I can only guess as i do not know, that JV was aware of what was happening offside or found out and did not know how to handle it. He hoped rather pathetically it appears that Lowe would just leave of his own accord without making a fuss. Looked like it was gonna happen till Vaughters made the mistake of being greedy and immature and not paying him. Right out the book of Armstrong that stupid move.

 

[ToreBear]

to be pedantic like a certain poster.

Ashenden said 'so called new age teamS'

Garmin and Sky

Details, details. I think we'll find out eventually though. Some one will tweet the wrong message or something.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Who cares what i know Doc!

I care.
It's obvious you know very little. Yet you continue to misrepresent what people say to push your own objectives.

Ashenden knows and if you read the story correctly doctor pedantic detail, you would have read that Ashenden said 'so called new age teams'. Now why would i put a post about Garmin in the sky thread. I also posted the same about what Ashenden said in the garmin/JV thread in the name of pedantic detail, you understand.

Asheden does know - but you don't.
You haven't a clue which team (or teams) he is on about.

No i did not say he was doping. it points to doping, as why would he be allowed to race if he was ill, his blood values were wrong and not from a sickness so it points to being to high over 50% so doping, i guess. Just a dot, you understand.

Backtrack noted.

JV refused to talk to Lowe. that is obvious. JV refused to meet his own rider that is obvious. It is also obvious to me it was about doping.

What?
If JV is the mastermind of this doping conspiracy in Garmin, why would he have a problem if one of his team is doping?

But that would destroy your and JVs myth as Ashenden has just destroyed it about Garmin being new age clean.

Aha - back misrepresenting what I say again - I suppose that is your only tactic.

Let me make it clear - I have no idea if Garmin are clean or not.
Unlike you though I have no problem if many of the riders, DSs and staff have a history, it is what they are doing now.

Do NOT misrepresent what I say.

IDGAF if Vaughters never posts in here again as i find him as repulsive as Brailsford, Bruyneel, Riis, et all the DS out there with their doping.

Then you will be able to cry Omertà and say JV doesn't answer your silly questions.
Also, it's amazing that you find someone that you know little about repulsive.
That is not a reflection of JV - but a reflection on you.

 

[Altitude]

If the admins are willing to tolerate the obvious astroturfing and baiting, then why would anyone want to participate in earnest in these discussions?

Wtf is astroturfing?

 

[Benotti69]

I care.
It's obvious you know very little. Yet you continue to misrepresent what people say to push your own objectives.

Yeah, my oh so big objective is to call Garmin a doping team just like all the others. I call them dopers more than others on here because Vaughters is vile with his lies.

Asheden does know - but you don't.
You haven't a clue which team (or teams) he is on about.

It dont take a genuis to figure out. He also said the peloton was no cleaner now than before. I suppose that doesn't include Garmin in your mind because he didn't put a link in or a note.

Backtrack noted.

I bet you have an archive of little notes.

What?
If JV is the mastermind of this doping conspiracy in Garmin, why would he have a problem if one of his team is doping?

re-read it slowly. than make a little note.

Aha - back misrepresenting what I say again - I suppose that is your only tactic.

aha- another little note.

Let me make it clear - I have no idea if Garmin are clean or not.
Unlike you though I have no problem if many of the riders, DSs and staff have a history, it is what they are doing now.

Ashenden has no problem calling out Garmin as one of the 'new age teamS' as having elements that are doping. It is what they are doing now in the present. Make a note.

Do NOT misrepresent what I say.

I didn't but noted.

Then you will be able to cry Omertà and say JV doesn't answer your silly questions.
Also, it's amazing that you find someone that you know little about repulsive.
That is not a reflection of JV - but a reflection on you.

JV has always been omerta in my little noted opinion.

Yeah i find anyone that spouts BS about new age cleanliness when they are lying repulsive. But i have been worng before. maybe i'll be worng about JV, but then that would mean Ashenden was wrong too. Make a note of that.

 

[badboygolf16v]

Anyone who says a skinsuit offers the same benefit as EPO is a charlatan and not to be trusted.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yeah, my oh so big objective is to call Garmin a doping team just like all the others. I call them dopers more than others on here because Vaughters is vile with his lies.

Can you show some lies that JV said?
Oh, of course - you know that Garmin are a doping team (yet cannot articulate how you know) so then everything JV says is a lie and therefore he is vile.

It dont take a genuis to figure out. He also said the peloton was no cleaner now than before. I suppose that doesn't include Garmin in your mind because he didn't put a link in or a note.

I bet you have an archive of little notes.


re-read it slowly. than make a little note.


aha- another little note.

Ashenden has no problem calling out Garmin as one of the 'new age teamS' as having elements that are doping. It is what they are doing now in the present. Make a note.

I didn't but noted.

JV has always been omerta in my little noted opinion.

Yeah i find anyone that spouts BS about new age cleanliness when they are lying repulsive. But i have been worng before. maybe i'll be worng about JV, but then that would mean Ashenden was wrong too. Make a note of that.

Yet again you attempt to misrepresent my view - I made it quite clear for you, and yet you ignore it. That about sums up your position.

 

[Benotti69]

Can you show some lies that JV said?
Oh, of course - you know that Garmin are a doping team (yet cannot articulate how you know) so then everything JV says is a lie and therefore he is vile.

JV claimed Garmin are clean. Ashenden claims they are not. In case you might want to get pedantic at this point. I know he did not mention Garmin. But he is talking about Garmin. I dont care whether you need that signed sealed and delivered.

Yet again you attempt to misrepresent my view - I made it quite clear for you, and yet you ignore it. That about sums up your position.

I did not misrepresent your view. I gave an opinion on your view. So go do one. Your pedanticness has long passed its sell by date as it was only useful for putting the public stategy and liestrongs trolls back into their little sad boxes.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

JV claimed Garmin are clean. Ashenden claims they are not. In case you might want to get pedantic at this point. I know he did not mention Garmin. But he is talking about Garmin. I dont care whether you need that signed sealed and delivered.



I did not misrepresent your view. I gave an opinion on your view. So go do one. Your pedanticness has long passed its sell by date as it was only useful for putting the public stategy and liestrongs trolls back into their little sad boxes.

So asking you to back up your claims is pedantry? Misrepresenting someone like Ashenden and getting called on it is pedantry?

If you want my opinion just ask for it. Indeed I have given it plenty of times - you ignore it because it easier to misrepresent someone then address the points.

And when you go around misrepresenting people's view to push your own agenda you are no different from the public strategy, Livestrong trolls. You are exactly the same.

 

[Benotti69]

So asking you to back up your claims is pedantry? Misrepresenting someone like Ashenden and getting called on it is pedantry?

If you want my opinion just ask for it. Indeed I have given it plenty of times - you ignore it because it easier to misrepresent someone then address the points.

And when you go around misrepresenting people's view to push your own agenda you are no different from the public strategy, Livestrong trolls. You are exactly the same.

Is pedantry your OCD?

How did i misrepresent Ashenden when he said nothing changed.

Personally, I don’t accept that the ‘dark era’ has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

now what did i misrepresent? he said the dark era has a new guise. If that isn't everyone doping, what is it?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Is pedantry your OCD?

How did i misrepresent Ashenden when he said nothing changed.



now what did i misrepresent? he said the dark era has a new guise. If that isn't everyone doping, what is it?

You must have forgotten you wrote this just a very short time ago....

JV claimed Garmin are clean. Ashenden claims they are not. In case you might want to get pedantic at this point. I know he did not mention Garmin. But he is talking about Garmin. I dont care whether you need that signed sealed and delivered

Also you said Regarding Ashenden - "he said the dark era has a new guise. If that isn't everyone doping, what is it?"

What is it? Its a classic case of you misrepresenting something - Ashenden was quite clear in his quotes.
"I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers even within ‘new age’ cycling teams. Personally, I don’t accept that the ‘dark era’ has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise".

 

[Benotti69]

You must have forgotten you wrote this just a very short time ago....

Also you said Regarding Ashenden - "he said the dark era has a new guise. If that isn't everyone doping, what is it?"

What is it? Its a classic case of you misrepresenting something - Ashenden was quite clear in his quotes.
"I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers even within ‘new age’ cycling teams. Personally, I don’t accept that the ‘dark era’ has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise".

Ashenden was quite clear. "I don’t accept that the ‘dark era’ has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise"

Now let me be quite clear and take note. JV = BS. Garmin are new age team that are part of the dark era in a new guise.

 

[AcademyCC]

Whilst it is quite good entertainment watching you two knock seven shades of **** out of each other. I think we can safely say any remote chance of JV answering any of the questions at hand has now gone. Good work.

I think he'd be too afraid of being misrepresented

 

[Benotti69]

Whilst it is quite good entertainment watching you two knock seven shades of **** out of each other. I think we can safely say any remote chance of JV answering any of the questions at hand has now gone. Good work.

I think he'd be too afraid of being misrepresented

It is fun reading ol doc pedantic.

But JV was pretty damn good at the misrepresentation on his own account

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Whilst it is quite good entertainment watching you two knock seven shades of **** out of each other. I think we can safely say any remote chance of JV answering any of the questions at hand has now gone. Good work.

I think he'd be too afraid of being misrepresented

He already has been here, many times but he still came back.

However after the last time I doubt he will come back and he pretty much said that when asked a question on twitter yesterday. I realize he was talking about responding on twitter, but I think the same applies here.
He said:
...honestly, I'm done. I've tried to speak openly and logically, and I only get attacked and ridiculed. No more twitter debates.

 

[AcademyCC]

He already has been here, many times but he still came back.

However after the last time I doubt he will come back and he pretty much said that when asked a question on twitter yesterday. I realize he was talking about responding on twitter, but I think the same applies here.
He said:
...honestly, I'm done. I've tried to speak openly and logically, and I only get attacked and ridiculed. No more twitter debates.

Don't worry I followed closely. I am very much in your corner on not slaughtering JV when he chooses to post. It achieves nothing for people in here wanting to know more and have dialogue with a central figure of the cycling world.

Ask the tough questions no doubt but I agree he has probably been well and truly scared off.

Having said that in behind the hardline attitude Benotti has - their are some legitimate concerns.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Don't worry I followed closely. I am very much in your corner on not slaughtering JV when he chooses to post. It achieves nothing for people in here wanting to know more and have dialogue with a central figure of the cycling world.

Ask the tough questions no doubt but I agree he has probably been well and truly scared off.

Having said that in behind the hardline attitude Benotti has - their are some legitimate concerns.

Indeed - and thats what pees me off.

Instead of getting to the heart of issues and asking the tough and uncomfortable (and maybe even wrong) questions and being able to articulate the fans view (and role) in this it gets lost because some have already there minds made up.
It also gives The Clinic (and probably fans in general) a bad rep by association.

Some people here took issue that JV made some nasty comments about posters here, saying he should not be personal in his comments - of course he is going to take being accused of lying and essentially running a doping program personally.

 

[AcademyCC]

Indeed - and thats what pees me off.

Instead of getting to the heart of issues and asking the tough and uncomfortable (and maybe even wrong) questions and being able to articulate the fans view (and role) in this it gets lost because some have already there minds made up.
It also gives The Clinic (and probably fans in general) a bad rep by association.

Some people here took issue that JV made some nasty comments about posters here, saying he should not be personal in his comments - of course he is going to take being accused of lying and essentially running a doping program personally.

Agree. Only difference would be JV didn't need to make a few of those condescending comments, they were usually in his first couple of posts as well which didn't help. The pitbulls went into full attack mode.

It's a little similar to Wiggo's tirade at the tour - no need. They both have to understand given the history fans will have doubts. You can't start trying to appease (which is clearly what JV was trying in here) these doubts with insult. I understand he's going to be ****ed at getting accused of doping but would have been better to start with 'Listen guys - i understand but......'

It's only a minor flaw in his approach but may have made a difference.

I did notice you trying to get the pitbulls back on a leash - tough gig.

 

[rata de sentina]

It is fun reading ol doc pedantic.

Maserati has seen off many a LA fanboy with this patience. So it’s not surprising that it’s being applied to a representative of the other extreme end of the spectrum like yourself. Always entertaining to see Maserati at work, not sure where the patience comes from.

 

[Benotti69]

Maserati has seen off many a LA fanboy with this patience. So it’s not surprising that it’s being applied to a representative of the other extreme end of the spectrum like yourself. Always entertaining to see Maserati at work, not sure where the patience comes from.

I dont consider myself extreme nor a pitbull. Thanks for the Talansky like comparison AcademyCC. My bark is worse than my bite.

I dont believe Millar/JV when they said that they are clean. I say so. No big deal.

That we need to have evidence to prove they are not is not required for the clinic or any forum. It is opinion based as most are anonymous. I back up my opinions when I can with what think strenthgen my opinion. If posters can back up their opinions with facts great. But then lots dont take those facts as true facts. Armstrong failed tests a long time ago yet plenty dont believe it because UCI never said he failed.

Ashenden made a huge statement that the 'dark era' is still here. He singled out 'new age teams' as having doping elements.

That is the complete opposite of what Vaughters declares about his team and also declares Sky to be clean.

There is no more to be discussed with Vaughters. Some of his team are doping. He is part of the problem of pro cycling. He claimed that he was not going to do this. Some of his team are doping. Ashenden has not used the words, garmin, slipstream or Vaughters team, but he is talking about garmin and sky.

I dont know what is so hard for people to believe, that a sport like cycling where nothing has changed that permitted the doping in the dark era is still in place and doping continues. Why believe Vaughters? Why believe Brailsford? What makes them believable over other DSs that have the same history? It is because they took 'a new guise', well it seems it worked and suckered people.