JV talks, sort of

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pmcg76 said:
sniper and his ilk are unreal at taking anything minor and turning it into something huge even though they have no clue.

How many times have we heard Garmin are based in Girona because it is a doping haven. Lo and behold it turns out that this is unlikely considering the likes of Hamilton and other dopers had to travel to other destinations to see their doping doctors and receive their transfusions despite living in Girona. Even when they were based in Nice they were still doping. It didn't stop them so don't matter if they are based in Nice, Girona, Lucca or whatever.

I know one of the sticks frequently used to beat David Millar with is that he worked with a doping doctor Luigi Cecchini on his return, we now have it from three admitted dopers Riis, Hamilton & Jaksche(Dekker also?) that Cecchini had little or nothing to do with actual doping but was a fantastic trainer who only really gave training advice. Seems unlikely now that Millar was with Cecchini for doping reasons.

Allan Lim is another figure used to thrash Garmin. Floyd Landis has said that Lim had nothing to do with his doping other than help with logistics. That might damage Lim's cred but I don't think JV has ever claimed that he employs people with spotless resume's unlike SKY. The JV mantra has always been what happens in the past ends there when you join Garmin.

Inigo San Milan is another fellow with apparently dodgy credentials but there are actual posters on here who can personally vouch for the integrity of San Milan, yet it hasn't stopped the know-all crowd from attacking him despite not knowing anything about him.

Funny having recently finished Tylers book how some of the know-all posters here reflect traits akin to those dopers they loathe so much. They believe so self-assuredly in what they are posting that they actually believe it to be fact, like the dopers who believe so much in their lies they don't think they are actually telling lies.
Oh wow,I have tried several times convey this message to the likes of sniper. I've tried it nicely and I've tried it by being blunt and rude, neither seemed to work. However I have never done it so eloquently. May I perhaps use it as a quote the next time sniper et al. go off in another CT-type rant? :D

Regards
GJ
 
Benotti69 said:
I dont consider myself extreme nor a pitbull. Thanks for the Talansky like comparison AcademyCC. My bark is worse than my bite. :D

I dont believe Millar/JV when they said that they are clean. I say so. No big deal.

That we need to have evidence to prove they are not is not required for the clinic or any forum. It is opinion based as most are anonymous. I back up my opinions when I can with what think strenthgen my opinion. If posters can back up their opinions with facts great. But then lots dont take those facts as true facts. Armstrong failed tests a long time ago yet plenty dont believe it because UCI never said he failed.

Ashenden made a huge statement that the 'dark era' is still here. He singled out 'new age teams' as having doping elements.

That is the complete opposite of what Vaughters declares about his team and also declares Sky to be clean.

There is no more to be discussed with Vaughters. Some of his team are doping. He is part of the problem of pro cycling. He claimed that he was not going to do this. Some of his team are doping. Ashenden has not used the words, garmin, slipstream or Vaughters team, but he is talking about garmin and sky.

I dont know what is so hard for people to believe, that a sport like cycling where nothing has changed that permitted the doping in the dark era is still in place and doping continues. Why believe Vaughters? Why believe Brailsford? What makes them believable over other DSs that have the same history? It is because they took 'a new guise', well it seems it worked and suckered people.
Even so, unless JV keeps his entire team on a short leash there might still be possibilities that that are riders or small pockets of riders within the team who cheat. He is no Big Brother, he doesn't keep tabs on all his riders 24/7, not van he be expected to. He does try and find out if they are cheating, but if the cheaters can beat the regular tests why not the team's tests. He also stated quite clearly that he let go of some riders and employees if he got the feeling they were still into doping and that he would go to WADA if he knew for sure (even in his own riders). Now that may or or may not be true (there is no way of knowing), but to lump him in with the likes of Bruyneel who basically organised the doping is quite something else. At worst est JV is being either naive with regard Garmin riders doping or he is purposefully turning a blind eye.

Regards
GJ
 
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Benotti - I like your hard line attitude. It quite often stops me in my tracks and makes me think about a situation from a different perspective. You call a spade a spade - unfortunately you call diamonds, hearts and clubs a spade as well sometimes.

My only point being if JV does ever decide to post again grinding him into the dirt straight away is of no use to anyone. Get him involved, ask the tough questions in a reasonable manner. I can't think of another sport where a high profile participant gets involved in debate with fans like JV tried to.

No matter what you think his motives are its better to have him posting here supplying his side of the story than taking his bat and ball and going home.
 
Jul 13, 2012
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AcademyCC said:
Benotti - I like your hard line attitude. It quite often stops me in my tracks and makes me think about a situation from a different perspective. You call a spade a spade - unfortunately you call diamonds, hearts and clubs a spade as well sometimes.

My only point being if JV does ever decide to post again grinding him into the dirt straight away is of no use to anyone. Get him involved, ask the tough questions in a reasonable manner. I can't think of another sport where a high profile participant gets involved in debate with fans like JV tried to.

No matter what you think his motives are its better to have him posting here supplying his side of the story than taking his bat and ball and going home.
Agree, most here have an idea of his stance, his limitations be it legal or personal, his comments however restrained or accountable come 'straight from the horses mouth'. If we are to join dots, speculate etc then having an information flow from someone like JV provides a good barometer to whats permissable in 'his world', such nuances are a vital part of the bigger picture and despite my own reservations about 'new age cycling' I welcome his input.
 
May 26, 2010
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AcademyCC said:
Benotti - I like your hard line attitude. It quite often stops me in my tracks and makes me think about a situation from a different perspective. You call a spade a spade - unfortunately you call diamonds, hearts and clubs a spade as well sometimes.

My only point being if JV does ever decide to post again grinding him into the dirt straight away is of no use to anyone. Get him involved, ask the tough questions in a reasonable manner. I can't think of another sport where a high profile participant gets involved in debate with fans like JV tried to.

No matter what you think his motives are its better to have him posting here supplying his side of the story than taking his bat and ball and going home.
Thanks. But i wont be grinding on JV. His immatture name calling on here was below even Wiggins throwaway insults.

I dont see any point o engage with him.

Gerard Vroomen has bequeathed more insider information about cycling than JV ever did imo and Vroomen claims to have been on the outside.

But If JV is put of by a few clinics so called 'pitbulls' and i dont consider my self a pitbull then that reflects badly on him.

He has used here for his own devices again in my opinion. For someone in his position he has actually told the clinic very little about the inner workings of the pro peloton and its dark side.
 
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Benotti69 said:
He has used here for his own devices again in my opinion. For someone in his position he has actually told the clinic very little about the inner workings of the pro peloton and its dark side.
Thats very accurate but its representative in itself :)
 
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GJB123 said:
Even so, unless JV keeps his entire team on a short leash there might still be possibilities that that are riders or small pockets of riders within the team who cheat. He is no Big Brother, he doesn't keep tabs on all his riders 24/7, not van he be expected to. He does try and find out if they are cheating, but if the cheaters can beat the regular tests why not the team's tests. He also stated quite clearly that he let go of some riders and employees if he got the feeling they were still into doping and that he would go to WADA if he knew for sure (even in his own riders). Now that may or or may not be true (there is no way of knowing), but to lump him in with the likes of Bruyneel who basically organised the doping is quite something else. At worst est JV is being either naive with regard Garmin riders doping or he is purposefully turning a blind eye.

Regards
GJ
I doubt Vaughters needs anyone to make excuse for him.

But the whole point of the internal team testing by the likes of IsM were to ensure no doping. So if the internal team testing is not picking it up why bother. Or if it is then why are the riders not kicked off the team?

How does Ashenden know that 'new age teams' are doping. It is because he saw it on the biopassport while he was invloved?

I have always suspected the internal testing by teams is to ensure the riders dont blow cover on the biopassport. Otherwise why the need? If riders are doping they will get caught if they are not internally tested. If the rider gets caught great.

So if Ashenden knew riders were/are doping so does JV and if he doesn't well time to hang up the argyle sidis and go take that corporate big wig job he boasted about.

His recent dealings with Lowe showed something clearly very strange going on at garmin.

On this last note. Vaughters in my opinion made a big mistake coming in here like one of the lads. He isnt. It was obvious he was enjoying the mystery his appearance postings created and the attraction of it all. All he ha done is to throw fule on a small fire that he was not straight in any way with fans about his team.

He aint no RR that's for sure.
 
Actually I am not making an excuse for him or at least not consciously. I am just someone who like to look at all the sides to a story and like to point out that even when taken out of context even the simplest of words van interpreted in more than 1 way. Now in your eyes that might make me a fanboi or an apologist, but really, the world is hardly ever just black and white. If I am not with you doesn't automatically means I am with JV.

Regards
GJ
 
May 12, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
I dont believe Millar/JV when they said that they are clean. I say so. No big deal.
David Millar ‏@millarmind
What's amazing is the more the UCI continue to act in this manner the more they reveal themselves to be to blame for the last 20yrs.

David Millar ‏@millarmind
UCI = SHAMEFUL. They continue to sue Kimmage which is disgusting and Verbruggen speaks out proving he must have nothing to do with cycling.


You wouldn't believe sh!t even if they put everyone in quarantine and test 24/7. +ignore, finally silence.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Benotti69 said:
I dont believe Millar/JV when they said that they are clean. I say so. No big deal.

That we need to have evidence to prove they are not is not required for the clinic or any forum. It is opinion based as most are anonymous. I back up my opinions when I can with what think strenthgen my opinion. If posters can back up their opinions with facts great. But then lots dont take those facts as true facts. Armstrong failed tests a long time ago yet plenty dont believe it because UCI never said he failed.
You don't need evidence - no one said you did, that is just you playing the poor me card.

You have an opinion, fine - you are entitled to it, but you are not entitled to misrepresent what people say to "strengthen" your opinion.

Benotti69 said:
Ashenden made a huge statement that the 'dark era' is still here. He singled out 'new age teams' as having doping elements.

That is the complete opposite of what Vaughters declares about his team and also declares Sky to be clean.
And here is a perfect example.
You are right, Ashenden did make a "huge statement" and it should be followed up and discussed.

But from his statement you state he is talking about Sky and/or Garmin, and then state that JV is declared Sky clean, he didn't, here's his quote:
"I feel like the best riders, on the best teams with the best training and best tactics are winning the biggest races and winning them clean and that is happening consistently".


Benotti69 said:
There is no more to be discussed with Vaughters. Some of his team are doping. He is part of the problem of pro cycling. He claimed that he was not going to do this. Some of his team are doping. Ashenden has not used the words, garmin, slipstream or Vaughters team, but he is talking about garmin and sky.

I dont know what is so hard for people to believe, that a sport like cycling where nothing has changed that permitted the doping in the dark era is still in place and doping continues. Why believe Vaughters? Why believe Brailsford? What makes them believable over other DSs that have the same history? It is because they took 'a new guise', well it seems it worked and suckered people.
Besides a few fans of certain teams, I don't think anyone would argue with that.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Mr.38% said:
David Millar ‏@millarmind
What's amazing is the more the UCI continue to act in this manner the more they reveal themselves to be to blame for the last 20yrs.

David Millar ‏@millarmind
UCI = SHAMEFUL. They continue to sue Kimmage which is disgusting and Verbruggen speaks out proving he must have nothing to do with cycling.


You wouldn't believe sh!t even if they put everyone in quarantine and test 24/7. +ignore, finally silence.
finally some sense coming from the mouth of of Millar.
A bit late though, wouldn't you think?
It's not hard to tell that the UCI with Phat and Verdruggem represents a sinking ship. Why would anyone stay on it?
A bit opportunistic from Millar to speak out now after being silent for almost a decade, even though the UCI's corruption has been out in the open for everybody to see.
Comments of this type would have been welcome at an earlier date.
Nonetheless they are hopeful comments, and better late than never.
 

Dr. Maserati

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sniper said:
finally some sense coming from the mouth of of Millar.
A bit late though, wouldn't you think?
It's not hard to tell that the UCI with Phat and Verdruggem represents a sinking ship. Why would anyone stay on it?
A bit opportunistic from Millar to speak out now after being silent for almost a decade, even though the UCI's corruption has been out in the open for everybody to see.
Comments of this type would have been welcome at an earlier date.
Nonetheless they are hopeful comments, and better late than never.
Absolutely.
Why hasn't Millar written a book about his life. Omertà that's why.
Ya - it's too late now, why doesn't he talk with WADA or something, probably because he is living in Girona, which is the drug capital of Spain - did you know that the head of the Spanish Olympics was jailed for his role in Festina - it's true it's on the Internet.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
did you know that the head of the Spanish Olympics was jailed for his role in Festina - it's true it's on the Internet.
you corrected me on that almost two months ago and i accepted and even thanked you for the correction straight away. and you're still baggering on about it? (for the fourth consecutive time that is) :confused:
check your archive, doc, and try to stay on topic.
 

Dr. Maserati

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sniper said:
you corrected me on that almost two months ago and i accepted and even thanked you for the correction straight away. and you're still baggering on about it? (for the fourth consecutive time that is) :confused:
check your archive, doc, and try to stay on topic.
Tell you what - I will make a deal or a pledge with you (&benotti).

I will stop correcting you, stop being pedantic in my replies, stop showing your shortcomings and inconsistencies - if you stop making stuff up and misrepresenting stuff and that one of you might actually read Millars book.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
You're really all over the place Doc.
The poodle, doc, that's you looking in the mirror.
Benotti's post in this thread (on Ashenden) that provoked your rant, that post wasn't directed at you. My posts in several threats that provoked several of your rants weren't directed at you either. Your barking all over the place even when nobody's talking to you. Take some pride in not squeeling like a poodle every time another dog passes by.
 

Dr. Maserati

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sniper said:
You're really all over the place Doc.
The poodle, doc, that's you looking in the mirror.
Benotti's post in this thread (on Ashenden) that provoked your rant, that post wasn't directed at you. My posts in several threats that provoked several of your rants weren't directed at you either. Your barking all over the place even when nobody's talking to you. Take some pride in not squeeling like a poodle every time another dog passes by.
This isn't personal - no need to deflect and make it so.

This is about your posts, thats what I object to, what you write - you don't like me correcting them then stop making stuff up or basic errors. Simple.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
This isn't personal - no need to deflect and make it so.

This is about your posts, thats what I object to, what you write - you don't like me correcting them then stop making stuff up or basic errors. Simple.
i don't see a need to be pedantic, regardless of the errors we make.
so let the deal be that you just stop being pedantic. simple.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Tell you what - I will make a deal or a pledge with you (&benotti).

I will stop correcting you, stop being pedantic in my replies, stop showing your shortcomings and inconsistencies - if you stop making stuff up and misrepresenting stuff and that one of you might actually read Millars book.
i don't see a need to be pedantic, regardless of the errors we make.
so let the deal be that you just stop being pedantic. simple.

errors? yours are countless, but never do you seem able to admit to them. it's why some are inclined to call you pedantic in the first place.
my errors? countless. i'm not proud of them but i gladly admit to them. try it. the truth hurts but will eventually set you free.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
This isn't personal - no need to deflect and make it so.

This is about your posts, thats what I object to, what you write - you don't like me correcting them then stop making stuff up or basic errors. Simple.
as I said in my previous post, I actually do like you correcting them. I even thanked you for correcting them.
It's the zillionth time that you misrepresent me.
to use your words: do NOT misrepresent me.
 
sniper said:
you corrected me on that almost two months ago and i accepted and even thanked you for the correction straight away. and you're still baggering on about it? (for the fourth consecutive time that is) :confused:
check your archive, doc, and try to stay on topic.
Are you deleting your own posts or the mods?
 

the big ring

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Found this quote from an interview in 2010: http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/05/news/garmins-jonathan-vaughters-on-floyd-landis-allegations-we-will-win-the-tour-of-california-and-win-it-clean_117464

“We have a race to win,” he said. “We will win this race clean, and we can withstand any level of scrutiny that anyone wants to place on that (result), period. I have no doubt in my mind, whatsoever. In fact I invite the world to put more scrutiny, more controls, more surveillance on us, to verify what I’m saying.”
 
Oct 16, 2010
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I wonder how the investigation into Weltz' is going.
Wait, what investigation?
Hell, even Sky now looks more willing to provide transparency than Garmin. Sky at least pretend to be 'investigating' Leinders.
 

the big ring

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sniper said:
I wonder how the investigation into Weltz' is going.
Wait, what investigation?
Hell, even Sky now looks more willing to provide transparency than Garmin. Sky at least pretend to be 'investigating' Leinders.
Dude. There's a public anti-doping policy, which washes away all the doping sins of the past.

Noone can tell me what that policy is exactly, or where, but there is one. Somewhere. Apparently.

At least Sky are willing to publicise their policy. Something about a line or something.
 
Here's a question I haven't seen asked-

Since Tom Danielson was one of the Garmin riders recently outed by Vaughters, does this mean he is one of the ten riders who gave testimony to the USADA about Armstrong?
 
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