JV talks, sort of

[Dr. Maserati]

are you seriously saying "Spidertech, UnitedHealthcare, Rabobank and a few other riders" are all clean? Hate to break it to you, but there are dopers in their midst. I guess you'd agree with me on that, though, wouldn't you?
So how exactly should the previous and current presence of a whole series of dopers in Girona make me believe that Garmin aren't there to dope?

Since you have gone full sniper - only fair to ask.
In your considered opinion, are you suggesting that Girona is the only place that is favorable to doping, and therefore that is the only reason people go there?

Also - can you recommend somewhere that people who do not in any way wish to be associated with doping should live - which city or country?

 

[sniper]

Knock it off with the Girona-thingy. It is getting really tiresome. FFS, Hamilton and Armstrong were neighbors while hardly talking to each other. Every time you get called on it, you say you don't mean it to be as evidence or doing anything wrong only to turn around and say quite the opposite. I mean look at your post above, where you do exactly the same in just one friggin' post.

Regards
GJ

ok, here it comes, in plain english:

if lance is found guilty on the basis of ten testimonies, it's the sum of the testimonies that makes for a compelling case.
if we discover that italian is related to french, it is on the basis of countless of similarities, not just one single word or sound correspondence.
It's the body of data that matters and that we make inferences from.
The point being: stop talking about girona in isolation. I'm not talking about girona in isolation, and neither should you. Girona is just one single piece of data which, in isolation, would indeed be irrelevant.

 

[pmcg76]

ok, here it comes, in plain english:

if lance is found guilty on the basis of ten testimonies, it's the sum of the testimonies that makes for a compelling case.
if we discover that italian is related to french, it is on the basis of countless of similarities, not just one single word or sound correspondence.
It's the body of data that matters and that we make inferences from.
The point being: stop talking about girona in isolation. I'm not talking about girona in isolation, and neither should you. Girona is just one single piece of data which, in isolation, would indeed be irrelevant.

But that's the thing, you have jack all other evidence other than what you imagine.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Personal Experience Doping

Here's two very safe questions for JV1973.

Can you post a memorable the short term side effects of your doping experiences? For example, what were the unpleasant side effects of getting off a doping cycle, if any?

Do you have any long-term health complications due to doping? Rarely do we hear of long-term consequences to doping and I'm just wondering if there were any in your case.

For both questions there are no specifics necessary, just some general information.

 

[sniper]

Since you have gone full sniper - only fair to ask.
In your considered opinion, are you suggesting that Girona is the only place that is favorable to doping, and therefore that is the only reason people go there?

Also - can you recommend somewhere that people who do not in any way wish to be associated with doping should live - which city or country?

Not the only, but favorable nonetheless. Buy EPO without prescription certainly sounds favorable to me. doesn't it to you?

My point is: if you claim Italian is related to France, there have to be certain historical preconditions for that thesis to be possible, such as the fact that France and Italy were both settled by descendents of speakers of Latin-speakers.
In the case of Garmin, of course we're only speculating about doping (there is no empirical evidence), and that speculation is nourished not primarily by Girona, but by other indications (Hesjedal, Wiggins, Ashenden, Lim,White, Weltz etc.). But the Girona-link is nonetheless important as it shows that at least the socio-geographical precondition of living in a doping-friendly environment has been fulfilled. Without that precondition, such speculation would be a lot less convincing.

 

[AlpineClimbr]

I'm no expert - I hope I made that clear. I have no idea what it means, I just recognise patterns.

The human mind is geared to finding patterns. Even when they don't exist. A good book on the topic is Fooled by Randomness by Nassim Nicholas Taleb.

 

[sniper]

But that's the thing, you have jack all other evidence other than what you imagine.

dude, where do i say i have evidence?
please, if it doesn't overload your brains, try to differentiate between empirical evidence, on the one hand, and mere indications on the other.
evidence there is none, indications there are plenty.

 

[pmcg76]

dude, where do i say i have evidence?
please, if it doesn't overload your brains, try to differentiate between empirical evidence, on the one hand, and mere indications on the other.
evidence there is none, indications there are plenty.

Whatever way you want to spin it, you have very little indicators either.

 

[the big ring]

The human mind is geared to finding patterns. Even when they don't exist. A good book on the topic is Fooled by Randomness by Nassim Nicholas Taleb.

Are you saying there is no pattern in those three graphs? That they are just random?

Did you enjoy it? It doesn't sound like the right book for me, but if you have any other suggestions along similar lines I'm all ears. er eyes.

 

[pmcg76]

Not the only, but favorable nonetheless. Buy EPO without prescription certainly sounds favorable to me. doesn't it to you?

My point is: if you claim Italian is related to France, there have to be certain historical preconditions for that thesis to be possible, such as the fact that France and Italy were both settled by descendents of speakers of Latin-speakers.
In the case of Garmin, of course we're only speculating about doping (there is no empirical evidence), and that speculation is nourished not primarily by Girona, but by other indications (Hesjedal, Wiggins, Ashenden, Lim,White, Weltz etc.). But the Girona-link is nonetheless important as it shows that at least the socio-geographical precondition of living in a doping-friendly environment has been fulfilled. Without that precondition, such speculation would be a lot less convincing.

But you have yet to show anywhere why Girona is more of a doping friendly environment than anywhere else. You cannot just say Girona is doping friendly because it is and EPO is easily available when that is true all over Spain.

Also ironic considering that none of the big SKY names are based in Girona and they are definitley on the sauce.

 

[sniper]

Also ironic considering that none of the big SKY names are based in Girona and they are definitley on the sauce.

This is an interesting point, and one i've been trying to raise, by asking if anyone has perhaps sighted Wiggo in Girona ever since he's been with Sky. He used to come there while at Garmin.
Anyway, you are obviously correct that you need not be in Girona to dope.

But you have yet to show anywhere why Girona is more of a doping friendly environment than anywhere else. You cannot just say Girona is doping friendly because it is and EPO is easily available when that is true all over Spain.

Fair enough. I'm happy to be proven wrong on the issue of Girona.
I'm simply fascinated by the fact that so many teams and riders cluster in Girona.
Also, we know for a fact that a lot of cyclists dope, so is it so difficult to understand why I'm looking for a correlation between Girona and doping?
If such a correlation doesn't exist, I'd be positively surprised.

 

[the big ring]

(Make a Girona thread and put this stuff in there )

 

[Avoriaz]

This is an interesting point, and one i've been trying I'm simply fascinated by the fact that so many teams and riders cluster in Girona. I have no idea why that should be so.

The weather? The airport? The training rides?

That's what Michael Barry says:

foreign professional cyclists who were attracted to the town for its proximity to the mountains, the Mediterranean climate, and the swelling pool of training partners

Seems fair. If you are a long way from home, you do tend to seek out like minded people and people of similar backgrounds.

I don't really know, but according to the link it began with our old friend Weltz:

http://pedalingtheroad.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/girona-cycling-enclave-off-season.html

Teammates can go months without seeing each other, as rosters at races usually have a limitation of the number of riders allowed to compete. This does not mean riders are all alone, they tend to gather in enclaves around Europe. Some in the south of France, some around lake Como and others in Girona, Spain. Girona has many American riders, ever since Johnny Weltz, former USPS team director set up in Girona in 1996, Hincapie, Hamilton and Vande Velde followed soon after, many have followed in their footsteps. Brent Bookwalter and Peter Stetina to mention a few.

 

[pmcg76]

The weather? The airport? The training rides?

That's what Michael Barry says:



Seems fair. If you are a long way from home, you do tend to seek out like minded people and people of similar backgrounds.

I don't really know, but according to the link it began with our old friend Weltz:

http://pedalingtheroad.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/girona-cycling-enclave-off-season.html

He already know's all this as it has been pointed out to him countless times and yet he continues trolling with it. As I said earlier I think he is a bit *** or something.

 

[Benotti69]

JV & Millar both worked with Wiggins, so they have evidence - you have none.

Would that be David Millar who lambasted Floyd Landis, who opened his mouth so wide and spat so much into the soup that Millar now finds the balls to question McQuaid?

Yeah we can really trust what he says.

Funny that you say "all we can do is read into the information available to us" and then mention Benottis interpretation that it must be Garmin, not sound logic.

Who are the new age teams in the peloton?

Please do not attempt to have your crackpot theorys as having anything to do with The Clinic. This is a forum - which has many wide ranging views and different opinions on different matters.

Your knowledge of cycling could be clearly written on the back of a stamp.

So crackpot theories? Does that make Ashenden a crackpot who wrote cycling is still in a 'dark era under a new guise'?

So you accept Vaughter's and Millar's word over Michael Ashenden, hmmm.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Girona's for the plebs mate. Tenerife Toffs all the way for the Sky crew. Toodle pip eh what? Tally ho!

THAT was funny!

 

[sniper]

The weather? The airport? The training rides?

That's what Michael Barry says:



Seems fair. If you are a long way from home, you do tend to seek out like minded people and people of similar backgrounds.

I don't really know, but according to the link it began with our old friend Weltz:

http://pedalingtheroad.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/girona-cycling-enclave-off-season.html

good post.

However, as pcmg said earlier, certain riders (i believe he mentioned floyd and tyler) had been neighbours in girona, yet without ever going out for a ride together. Iow, they were in girona for other things than friendship. Of course, the argument of comradship might well apply to many other riders who settle in girona. but i won't and don't believe that's the whole story.

But it raises an interesting point:
all this presumed friendly neighbourship in Girona, wouldn't that jeopardize the marginal gains advantages a team like Garmin pretends to have over competing teams?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

good post.

However, as pcmg said earlier, certain riders (i believe he mentioned floyd and tyler) had been neighbours in girona, yet without ever going out for a ride together. Iow, they were in girona for other things than friendship. But of course, the argument of comradship might well apply to many other riders who settle in girona.

But it raises an interesting point:
all this presumed friendly neighbourship in Girona, wouldn't that jeopardize the marginal gains advantages a team like Garmin pretends to have over competing teams?

More BS.
You obviously have not read Tylers book - he explains why he trained alone - and also goes in to some detail about his doping, in Madrid.

 

[LeLanternRouge]

It might be considered that it is more likely that the doping follows the cyclists, not that the cyclists following the doping.

Cyclists perhaps train in Girona because the conditions there are ideal - and those who are aware of the doping culture of cycling follow to where the market is largest. If a large group of cyclists migrated to Canada, you would probably find readily available doping products there as well.

To my mind, the issue of geography as a doping haven would only come into play where the location is actually less than ideal for cyclist training - in which case, the primary motive for being there would be to facilitate doping.

 

[RownhamHill]

Probably. Thomas' extra weight is about half fat, but also about 2 kgs of upper body muscle mass that he acquired while serving his suspension. When you are consistently racing and training your body catabolizes upper body muscle. But when you aren't doing so much exercise, your upper body goes back to a more normal state. I've gained around 3kgs of upper body muscle, without ever lifting weights, just since I quit racing (I've also gained some fat!)...Anyhow, losing that 4 kgs will be very rough for TD. He'll need to put himself in a severely catabolic state on a few occasions to make it happen, as it's not just fat he needs to lose.

The interesting thing in all of this is that it seems that the body catabolizes inactive muscle groups more readily than active ones. When cyclists become very catabolic they tend to eat up their upper bodies more than legs. Amazes me that the endocrine system could be that smart, but there you go.

JV

Hi JV, thank you for contributing to these threads, I appreciate it. I wanted to follow up on this post, as I'm interested in what would be involved in Thomas Dekker putting himself in a severely catabolic state on a few occasions. Does this essentially mean starving himself while continuing to train? And how long would he (or anyone) be able to do this for at a time?

(NB there's no agenda to this question, I'm just interested in the answer)

 

[mikkemus23]

Don't misrepresent what I say.
I asked you (and others) what these dodgy issues that you appear to see are, it is your problem that they are worthless - and now you are backtracking.


Ashendens issue is very serious. Not surprising, sadly but it shows that there is still a problem within the sport.

What you (&benotti) have done is attempt to imply that it IS Garmin - which is actually deflecting the serious points Ashenden raises.

Leinders/Sky/Wiggins has zero to do with Garmin or JV.

At the same time one can not rule out that Ashenden doesn`t mean Garmin, right? To be honest I see that Benotti and Sniper are speculating quite a bit, but, come on, with the history this sport has, the cover ups, etc etc, I don`t think that they are over the line, when they they at the same time seems to make it clear that it is not proven. Puh

 

[Dr. Maserati]

At the same time one can not rule out that Ashenden doesn`t mean Garmin, right? To be honest I see that Benotti and Sniper are speculating quite a bit, but, come on, with the history this sport has, the cover ups, etc etc, I don`t think that they are over the line, when they they at the same time seems to make it clear that it is not proven. Puh

I didn't rule it out - but there is a difference in directly saying that IT IS team a or b.

 

[sniper]

It might be considered that it is more likely that the doping follows the cyclists, not that the cyclists following the doping.

Cyclists perhaps train in Girona because the conditions there are ideal - and those who are aware of the doping culture of cycling follow to where the market is largest. If a large group of cyclists migrated to Canada, you would probably find readily available doping products there as well.

To my mind, the issue of geography as a doping haven would only come into play where the location is actually less than ideal for cyclist training - in which case, the primary motive for being there would be to facilitate doping.

+1
excellent points.

At the same time one can not rule out that Ashenden doesn`t mean Garmin, right? To be honest I see that Benotti and Sniper are speculating quite a bit, but, come on, with the history this sport has, the cover ups, etc etc, I don`t think that they are over the line, when they they at the same time seems to make it clear that it is not proven. Puh

why thank you, indeed.

Recall that i (and others) have explicitly asked JV which teams he thinks Ashenden was referring to with "new age teams". A straightforward question, and it would be great to get a straightforward answer.

 

[Benotti69]

It might be considered that it is more likely that the doping follows the cyclists, not that the cyclists following the doping.

Cyclists perhaps train in Girona because the conditions there are ideal - and those who are aware of the doping culture of cycling follow to where the market is largest. If a large group of cyclists migrated to Canada, you would probably find readily available doping products there as well.

To my mind, the issue of geography as a doping haven would only come into play where the location is actually less than ideal for cyclist training - in which case, the primary motive for being there would be to facilitate doping.

Like an small island with few roads.

 

[AcademyCC]

But you have yet to show anywhere why Girona is more of a doping friendly environment than anywhere else. You cannot just say Girona is doping friendly because it is and EPO is easily available when that is true all over Spain.

Also ironic considering that none of the big SKY names are based in Girona and they are definitley on the sauce.

For the record I don't think Garmin use Girona for a doping camp but the bolded can be answered as a general question.

Tylers Book extract: talking about moving out of France when the heat was being turned up on investigations.

"I told Lance about Girona, that ancient walled Spanish city I'd lived in before coming to France. I told him about its cool restaurants, its decent training nearby, the half dozen other American riders who lived there, including several of our teamates. As an additional plus, we all knew the Spaniards were far less strict about doping; no gendarmes raiding hotel rooms, no dumpster-diving reporters. The decision took five minutes. We were headed to Girona"

There are also no anti-doping laws in Spain like the ones in France and since there are no anti-doping organizations in Spain like the ones there are in other countries.

We've also heard from riders coming clean (Jesus Manzano) that Spanish testers are sometimes kind enough to either alert you they are coming or check if you will be in at a certain time the day before. How friendly - a great place to be based.