JV talks, sort of

[Dr. Maserati]

+1
excellent points.


why thank you, indeed.

Recall that i (and others) have explicitly asked JV which teams he thinks Ashenden was referring to with "new age teams". A straightforward question, and it would be great to get a straightforward answer.

How would JV know (for sure) - he is not Ashenden.
Would you ask Ashenden what its like to wear sideburns- because he must know JV?


BTW - talking of straightforward questions, you avoided answering mine about where someone should live.

 

[LeLanternRouge]

Like an small island with few roads.

I readily admit that I've never been to Girona and don't know enough about it to make a determination.

Applying merely principles of logic, the issues may be summarised:

1) What conditions make a location ideal for cyclist training? (proximity to competition, climate, infrastructure, etc.)

2) Does Girona meet the standard of a location that is ideal for cyclist training?

If the answer to 2 is "yes", then the correlation between doping and cyclists in Girona is most likely that the doping has followed the cyclists. If the answer to 2 is "no" or even "less than ideal" vis-a-vis alternate locations, then the correlation between doping and cyclists in Girona is may be that the cyclists have followed the doping.

Someone who has been to Girona and is more knowledgeable than myself could easily answer this question and put the issue to bed.

 

[Benotti69]

For the record I don't think Garmin use Girona for a doping camp but the bolded can be answered as a general question.

Tylers Book extract: talking about moving out of France when the heat was being turned up on investigations.

"I told Lance about Girona, that ancient walled Spanish city I'd lived in before coming to France. I told him about its cool restaurants, its decent training nearby, the half dozen other American riders who lived there, including several of our teamates. As an additional plus, we all knew the Spaniards were far less strict about doping; no gendarmes raiding hotel rooms, no dumpster-diving reporters. The decision took five minutes. We were headed to Girona"

There are also no anti-doping laws in Spain like the ones in France and since there are no anti-doping organizations in Spain like the ones there are in other countries.

We've also heard from riders coming clean (Jesus Manzano) that Spanish testers are sometimes kind enough to either alert you they are coming or check if you will be in at a certain time the day before. How friendly - a great place to be based.

Ooh dont post that, it doesn't fit with the myth.

Obviously the airport in Perpignan is crap and the Pyrennees on the French side not as good.

 

[Benotti69]

I readily admit that I've never been to Girona and don't know enough about it to make a determination.

Applying merely principles of logic, the issues may be summarised:

1) What conditions make a location ideal for cyclist training? (proximity to competition, climate, infrastructure, etc.)

2) Does Girona meet the standard of a location that is ideal for cyclist training?

If the answer to 2 is "yes", then the correlation between doping and cyclists in Girona is most likely that the doping has followed the cyclists. If the answer to 2 is "no" or even "less than ideal" vis-a-vis alternate locations, then the correlation between doping and cyclists in Girona is may be that the cyclists have followed the doping.

Someone who has been to Girona and is more knowledgeable than myself could easily answer this question and put the issue to bed.

Someone like Tyler hamilton.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ooh dont post that, it doesn't fit with the myth.

Obviously the airport in Perpignan is crap and the Pyrennees on the French side not as good.

I dont know about the airport in Perpignan - but the airport outside Girona is 20 mins away and is a central hub as it also serves the Costa del Sol and Barcelona.

And the riders around Girona use the Rocacorba for tests as it is close to the town.

Someone like Tyler hamilton.

Ya, Tyler- who went to Italy to meet Checcini and went to Madrid to dope.

 

[sniper]

I dont know about the airport in Perpignan - but the airport outside Girona is 20 mins away and is a central hub as it also serves the Costa del Sol and Barcelona.

And the riders around Girona use the Rocacorba for tests as it is close to the town.


Ya, Tyler- who went to Italy to meet Checcini and went to Madrid to dope.

are you saying tyler didn't dope in girona?
if he didn't mention that in his book, i assume it's because it's too obvious.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

are you saying tyler didn't dope in girona?
if he didn't mention that in his book, i assume it's because it's too obvious.

You haven't read Tyler's book - what a surprise

Tyler doped in Girona - but unlike what yourself and Benotti are trying to suggest he did not just go there to dope.
If he was moving somewhere to dope then he would have gone to Madrid.

 

[Benotti69]

I dont know about the airport in Perpignan - but the airport outside Girona is 20 mins away and is a central hub as it also serves the Costa del Sol and Barcelona.

Well Perpignan airport is 5 mins away so that's a big nope to living in Perpignan.

The Pyrennees is all of a few kilometres away so another big nope.

The French are hard on doping.

Ya know i would guess a clean team might be based in a country that has pretty damn strict anti doping laws. but i suppose that is not written on the back of the stamp with the instructions for clean teams.

And the riders around Girona use the Rocacorba for tests as it is close to the town.

Ya, Tyler- who went to Italy to meet Checcini and went to Madrid to dope.

Ya think all the riders could afford Fuentes? What do the doms do on their petty wages? They got to hook up with someone local, they cant be flying and spending thousands on doctors like Fuentes.

 

[AcademyCC]

You haven't read Tyler's book - what a surprise

Tyler doped in Girona - but unlike what yourself and Benotti are trying to suggest he did not just go there to dope.
If he was moving somewhere to dope then he would have gone to Madrid.

The discussion is being changed by every post here. Anyway;

Hes not going to move to Madrid to dope because Girona provides the complete package - friends, good riding, nice city etc etc

Girona airport services Costa Brava not Costa del Sol.

 

[D-Queued]

I readily admit that I've never been to Girona and don't know enough about it to make a determination.

Applying merely principles of logic, the issues may be summarised:

1) What conditions make a location ideal for cyclist training? (proximity to competition, climate, infrastructure, etc.)

2) Does Girona meet the standard of a location that is ideal for cyclist training?

If the answer to 2 is "yes", then the correlation between doping and cyclists in Girona is most likely that the doping has followed the cyclists. If the answer to 2 is "no" or even "less than ideal" vis-a-vis alternate locations, then the correlation between doping and cyclists in Girona is may be that the cyclists have followed the doping.

Someone who has been to Girona and is more knowledgeable than myself could easily answer this question and put the issue to bed.

Girona has the number one rated restaurant in the world.

That should be enough, right?

It is also a pretty/beautiful town.

So, if you are rich, are looking for an accessble good year-round climate local near France, that has lots of variable terrain and is, as they say, close to "well known training routes"* whose popularity is enhanced by the manana attitude toward doping, then Girona is perfect.

Dave.

*From an actual ad for cyclist accommodation, and has all of the double entendre that you can imagine.

 

[sniper]

Ya know i would guess a clean team might be based in a country that has pretty damn strict anti doping laws. but i suppose that is not written on the back of the stamp with the instructions for clean teams.

Legendary.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Well Perpignan airport is 5 mins away so that's a big nope to living in Perpignan.

The Pyrennees is all of a few kilometres away so another big nope.

The French are hard on doping.

Ya know i would guess a clean team might be based in a country that has pretty damn strict anti doping laws. but i suppose that is not written on the back of the stamp with the instructions for clean teams.



Ya think all the riders could afford Fuentes? What do the doms do on their petty wages? They got to hook up with someone local, they cant be flying and spending thousands on doctors like Fuentes.

Just for you: From Ryanair - the largest carrier in Europe.

Perpignan airport:

Girona:

 

[sniper]

After spending a few weeks recovering in his European base of Girona, Spain, Hesjedal is ready to tackle the challenge of winning two Grand Tours in three months.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/30/sports/cycling/30iht-tour30.html?pagewanted=all&_moc.semityn.www

I wonder what recovery in Girona looks like?

Do Garmin (and other teams) have something like their own building/headquarters in Girona where they gather, sleep and do tests? Or do all riders have their own appartment to sleep and one separate centre for shared Garmin training/testing activities?

Can anybody (perhaps JV) help me out: did Ryder get tested for the bloodpassport in those couple of weeks in Girona?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/30/sports/cycling/30iht-tour30.html?pagewanted=all&_moc.semityn.www

I wonder what recovery in Girona looks like?

Do Garmin (and other teams) have something like a teambuilding/headquarters in Girona? Or do all riders have their own appartment? Or both?

Can anybody (perhaps JV) help me out: did Ryder get tested in those couple of weeks in Girona?

A better question would be - dear JV why do you not send all your riders home to where they live (like Canada) every night?
Is it because you wasted all the money on drugs?

 

[Elagabalus]

Ooh dont post that, it doesn't fit with the myth.

Obviously the airport in Perpignan is crap and the Pyrennees on the French side not as good.

'Cept he forgot the most important part. Tyler suggested Girona to Lance because he had already lived in Girona previously.

 

[sniper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U1zRKTBxtE

Hesjedal in 2012 training up the Rocacorba for the first time(!?)

p.s. Interesting conversation with San Millan at around 1:40 to 1:50

 

[Elagabalus]

You know; a cow is an animal, so are you seriously saying all animals are cows?

In other words:
- yes, some riders dope,
- yes, some of those riders live Girona
- no, not all riders living in Girona dope by definition. That assumption is just plain stupid and offering it as evidence of doping no less, is indeed borderline ***.

While I agree with most of what you say I also think it doesn't add much to the discussion if you keep suggesting to a poster that he or she is a "***". (And, indeed, I believe it is also a posting violation).

 

[hrotha]

Whenever Girona is brought up, things get ridiculous.

Maybe I should move there. I bet they breathe EPO mixed with oxygen.

 

[Willy_Voet]

Just for you: From Ryanair - the largest carrier in Europe.

Girona:

Yes, much easier to fly in black market EPO from dodgy eastern European countries.

 

[Mr.38%]

In Girona they have EPO doped virgins ****ing in the groundwater. Some ProTour riders got pregnant from it, but hey - you can't have everything.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Whenever Girona is brought up, things get ridiculous.

Maybe I should move there. I bet they breathe EPO mixed with oxygen.

Blood banks on every corner - lodgment's and withdrawals.

Yes, much easier to fly in black market EPO from dodgy eastern European countries.

No need - you can buy EPO in the pharmacys there, only place in the world so I hear.

 

[frenchfry]

Not exactly a scientific survey, but we know some people who live in Perpignan and they don't recommend it as a place to live (even though Salvador Dali exclaimed that the train station is the center of the world). I have only passed through Girona on the train, but I think it has a better reputation as a place to live.

This is before any considerations for compatibility for doping etc.

 

[Benotti69]

You haven't read Tyler's book - what a surprise

Tyler doped in Girona - but unlike what yourself and Benotti are trying to suggest he did not just go there to dope.
If he was moving somewhere to dope then he would have gone to Madrid.

No you are misrepresenting what is merely being suggested.

What is being suggested is that Girona is in Spain, which has a very lax attitude to doping.

What is being suggested is that yes Girona is close to an airport and that helps riders get to and from races, home and doping doctors(see Tyler).

It can also be centre that is good for training, but then so is just across the border in France, which has a hard line against doping.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

While I don't disagree with your proposition, it isn't going to be a path I take, for a number of reasons:

1. To assume that a rider was privy to doping programs or even witness to, just because they were on a team is incorrect. Perhaps in 1998, yes, but as enforcement clamped down, so too did the "inner circle" in each team. By early-mid 2000's, there were very few teams where riders would be open or anything less than extremely covert about any possible doping with other riders.

2. I think you vastly underestimate the political strain I have put my team under by even taking the position we have, which you deem "not good enough"... I cannot destroy a 100+ person organization due to being over zealous. My opinion would be that we've moved things in a very positive direction in a very short period of time. Changing a 100 year old culture isn't something that's easy. While Manzano and others have been the catalyst for movement, there actually has to be someone inside the sport that is willing to move things once the fire is set.
I know I catch a lot of heat, from both sides of this issue. But to me, that means I'm navigating it, just right. Get it changed without becoming a martyr.
That's a tightrope.

While I expect that this will get lost in a sea of anally retentive trolling and **** waving, I will respond.

If I am misreading what you are saying then I apologise but from what you've said above and previously I take it then that you have not asked any of your riders who have not been sanctioned about doping on their past teams. While you had some idea of how 'in' the ex-USP riders were from your experience on the team, how can you make the same judgement call about riders who were on teams that you were less closely involved in?

Does this not bring us full circle back to the first question I asked you. Namely have unsanctioned dopers been compelled to confess/disclose their doping in the way in which sanctioned dopers have been.

It appears from what you have told us is that while Dekker was forced to undergo a 're-education' programme as a convicted ex-doper, unconvicted ex-dopers within Garmin are not obliged to do the same. It seems a little bit like a two tier process.

A question - if Dekker had not been caught and had just reached the end of his contract, how would you have approached signing him and dealing with your suspicions of past doping?

Don't you think that part of breaking omerta requires a basic level of openness about the past - even if this is conducted internally and not in public. Do you not also think that talking to people about how they avoided testing positive etc would help you in your anti-doping measures?

The problem with a reactive approach such as the one you propose is twofold. Firstly, it depends upon others to act as the triggers for change and reform. You are never instigators, and this leads to the second problem - the danger of being left behind. As you acknowledge, at the moment, things are for cycling moving relatively fast and we truly have little idea what the landscape will look like in 12 months time.

Although you say you are happy with your approach do you not think you can do more and be more assertive and proactive in encouraging riders to break omerta and to come forward about past doping? It is something of a sophist argument to say well because the radicals and reactionaries disagree with me our policy must be right. It could be that the reactionaries are wrong and the radicals are right. I am certainly more aware of voices saying either you are not radical enough, or you are doing fine, but I've never heard anyone complain that you are too radical.

Within your conservative reform framework, while it would be unrealistic to expect you to compel riders to blow the whistle - would you i) encourage (rather than compel) riders to blow the whistle about activities at their former teams, ii) support those riders who choose to blow the whistle?

Do you think that you have done enough to support whistleblowers? How do you feel about how David Millar reacted to Landis' accusations against Armstrong?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No you are misrepresenting what is merely being suggested.

What is being suggested is that Girona is in Spain, which has a very lax attitude to doping.

What is being suggested is that yes Girona is close to an airport and that helps riders get to and from races, home and doping doctors(see Tyler).

It can also be centre that is good for training, but then so is just across the border in France, which has a hard line against doping.

Have you been to Perpignon or Girona?
Have you gone training in either of theses places?
Or are you just making it all up as you go along?