JV talks, sort of

[sniper]

Why do you keep referring to Weltz then if he is not the central question. All the things that have arisen concerning Weltz have concerned his time at US Postal which JV is clearly aware of and ok with. Having Weltz at Garmin does not contradict any of their own policies like SKY having Leinders does.

You keep applying SKY standards to Garmin which ain't the reality of the situation but you seem to have a major problem understanding that. Of course when that is pointed out to you, then the whole thing changes to what Ashenden has said about new age teams.

You just keep muddling things in an effort to slam Garmin.

JV's whole theoretical framework that you seem to buy without hesitation crucially depends on Sky and Wiggo being clean.
If Leinders is dodgy, as JV seems to think as well, then how can he be so sure Wiggo under Sky is clean?

And surely I'm not here to slam Garmin. Just that I don't see any reason to buy into JV's clean team theme. Do you? Are you buying it just because JV says so? And don't bomb me with VO2 max figures. I don't buy the data bending (or simply am too *** to digg those data).

 

[RichWalk]

The central issue is that JV depends on, and actively proliferates, the view that sky are clean. why? He himself admitted Leinders at sky is "worrying".

I would suggest its a 'vested interest' he markets clean cycling, Wiggo has come *clean* from his Team and Sky are the centre of cycling attention; they also proffer a similar mantra. So it makes sense, until proven otherwise to hop on the Sky band wagon.

Back in the real world I expect he as many do, have suspicions that there is an inner circle of doping going on there. If Brad et al don't get busted and this year passes by the 'clean brigade' have notched up a sucess

 

[Benotti69]

Ashenden called the new era of cycling a 'dark era under a new guise', in case all the Vaughters love in lads forgot.

'THE DARK ERA IN A NEW GUISE'.

Now how does that not equate with nearly everyone doping?

In the dark era there were maybe a handful of non doping riders, allegedly, Moncoutie as an example.

So where does that leave the 20 or so riders at Garmin in this new guise dark era?

Clean because Vaughters claims it?

I dont think so.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Evidently I don't. Which is why I am not claiming to know for a fact that Garmin are doping, yet JV and Millar (with equally little evidence) seem to know for a fact that Wiggo c.s. are clean.

In the absence of evidence in both directions, all we can do is read into the information available to us. When Benotti and others read into Ashenden's words as referring to Sky and Garmin, that is a perfectly plausible piece of reasoning, yet you're countering it as if it weren't a logical inference. It is (imo).

JV & Millar both worked with Wiggins, so they have evidence - you have none.

Funny that you say "all we can do is read into the information available to us" and then mention Benottis interpretation that it must be Garmin, not sound logic.

Knowing what we know about cycling, and looking at the available data (Weltz, Girona, White, Lim, Ashenden's comments, Wiggo 2009, Hesjedal 2012), I don't see why, here in the Clinic, we should treat Garmin as innocent until proven guilty? In the standard press and court rooms, ok, but in here? meh.

Please do not attempt to have your crackpot theorys as having anything to do with The Clinic. This is a forum - which has many wide ranging views and different opinions on different matters.

Your knowledge of cycling could be clearly written on the back of a stamp.

 

[ChrisE]

JV's whole theoretical framework that you seem to buy without hesitation crucially depends on Sky and Wiggo being clean.
If Leinders is dodgy, as JV seems to think as well, then how can he be so sure Wiggo under Sky is clean?

And surely I'm not here to slam Garmin. Just that I don't see any reason to buy into JV's clean team theme. Do you? Are you buying it just because JV says so? And don't bomb me with VO2 max figures. I don't buy the data bending (or simply am too *** to digg those data).

What's funny is somebody can toss some numbers onto the inernet and people take them at face value.

Me thinks you are ****ing in the wind here sniper. You will never get the crowd to jam JV on Wiggins even though they are posting in the other thread jamming him and Sky. They are too star struck.

I don't know about you, but I am still waiting for the answer to how his clean riders can win GT's, while simultaneously calling for a tripling of testing. WTF do you need more testing if you can win GT's clean?

*crickets*

 

[the big ring]

What's funny is somebody can toss some numbers onto the inernet and people take them at face value.

Me thinks you are ****ing in the wind here sniper. You will never get the crowd to jam JV on Wiggins even though they are posting in the other thread jamming him and Sky. They are too star struck.

I don't know about you, but I am still waiting for the answer to how his clean riders can win GT's, while simultaneously calling for a tripling of testing. WTF do you need more testing if you can win GT's clean?

*crickets*

I don't mind the numbers being thrown onto the Internet. If he was publishing bad values it would look pretty obvious to UCI / WADA yeah? Or is there insufficient scrutiny for that to be a deterrent?

I have some questions about Ryder's values but I'm gonna chuck 'em in the Ryder thread. Even at face value they are full of WTF.

 

[RichWalk]

I don't know about you, but I am still waiting for the answer to how his clean riders can win GT's, while simultaneously calling for a tripling of testing. WTF do you need more testing if you can win GT's clean?

*crickets*

Spot on, if either riders were clean or the tests actually worked or perish the thought both, maybe then we could start to believe...........

 

[sniper]

Back in the real world I expect he as many do, have suspicions that there is an inner circle of doping going on there. If Brad et al don't get busted and this year passes by the 'clean brigade' have notched up a sucess

good post.
definitely.
JV isn't stupid, even though he pretends to be.
I love the term 'data bending'. Thanks Ashenden for bringing that up.

 

[sniper]

JV & Millar both worked with Wiggins, so they have evidence - you have none.

Funny that you say "all we can do is read into the information available to us" and then mention Benottis interpretation that it must be Garmin, not sound logic.


Please do not attempt to have your crackpot theorys as having anything to do with The Clinic. This is a forum - which has many wide ranging views and different opinions on different matters.

Your knowledge of cycling could be clearly written on the back of a stamp.

"we" in this case was a pluralis modestiae.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralis_Modestiae
anyway, you're back to your usual habit of avoiding the issue at hand by punching below the belt?

and what is your encyclopedic knowledge of cycling worth if it hinders you to see the scam unfolding in front of you

 

[ChrisE]

I don't mind the numbers being thrown onto the Internet. If he was publishing bad values it would look pretty obvious to UCI / WADA yeah? Or is there insufficient scrutiny for that to be a deterrent?

I have some questions about Ryder's values but I'm gonna chuck 'em in the Ryder thread. Even at face value they are full of WTF.

I doubt there is sufficient scrutiny. Is WADA lurking to play gotcha with numbers posted on a public forum to toss bones to fans? Why would they care?

I recall awhile back when somebody posted some numbers, and then the ones that looked off there was an "excuse". I cannot remember the details.

It's all BS.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

"we" in this case was a pluralis modestiae.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralis_Modestiae
anyway, you're back to your usual habit of avoiding the issue at hand by punching below the belt?

Avoiding the issue? I had to ask you twice for some (any) evidence - don't blame me that it is worthless.

and what is your encyclopedic knowledge of cycling worth if it hinders you to see the scam unfolding in front of you

Actually - it allows me distinguish where the real problems are in the sport.
You see a scam in everything.

 

[sniper]

Actually - it allows me distinguish where the real problems are in the sport.
You see a scam in everything.

as I said, I don't. I don't know Garmin is dirty. I don'T know if it's a scam (hence the ). But there are some dodgy issues which posters here are trying to raise, and which you seem desperate to dismiss beforehand.
One of those issues is Ashenden's reference to new age teams. Another is Leinders/Sky/Wiggins which rather directly concerns JV/Garmin.

 

[ChrisE]

So what about Ashendon? He is a scientist; does he have inside knowledge on what is going on within teams? If not, then he should STFU. If he says Wiggins numbers are not possible then say so. I pay him no attention when it comes to "opinions" not based upon fact. He has zero idea who is doing what or else he would be taking his own advice about speaking up and naming names, right?

How serious can somebody be taken on this subject if they think it is outlandish that people can't freely speak their minds, regardless of situation and pressures? That's stupid talk.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

as I said, I don't. I don't know Garmin is dirty. I don'T know if it's a scam (hence the ). But there are some dodgy issues which posters here are trying to raise, and which you seem desperate to dismiss beforehand.

Don't misrepresent what I say.
I asked you (and others) what these dodgy issues that you appear to see are, it is your problem that they are worthless - and now you are backtracking.

One of those issues is Ashenden's reference to new age teams. Another is Leinders/Sky/Wiggins which rather directly concerns JV/Garmin.

Ashendens issue is very serious. Not surprising, sadly but it shows that there is still a problem within the sport.

What you (&benotti) have done is attempt to imply that it IS Garmin - which is actually deflecting the serious points Ashenden raises.

Leinders/Sky/Wiggins has zero to do with Garmin or JV.

 

[the big ring]

So what about Ashendon? He is a scientist; does he have inside knowledge on what is going on within teams? If not, then he should STFU. If he says Wiggins numbers are not possible then say so. I pay him no attention when it comes to "opinions" not based upon fact. He has zero idea who is doing what or else he would be taking his own advice about speaking up and naming names, right?

How serious can somebody be taken on this subject if they think it is outlandish that people can't freely speak their minds, regardless of situation and pressures? That's stupid talk.

Did you see the article on CN? Someone called him and told him something is going on - but refused to go public. He hung up and then penned a missive to publish hinting that things are no different, just in a different guise. He specifically mentioned "new-age" teams, data bending and propaganda.

You really should try visiting more often

 

[pmcg76]

Evidently I don't. Which is why I am not claiming to know for a fact that Garmin are doping, yet JV and Millar (with equally little evidence) seem to know for a fact that Wiggo c.s. are clean.

In the absence of evidence in both directions, all we can do is read into the information available to us. When Benotti and others read into Ashenden's words as referring to Sky and Garmin, that is a perfectly plausible piece of reasoning, yet you're countering it as if it weren't a logical inference. It is (imo).

Knowing what we know about cycling, and looking at the available data (Weltz, Girona, White, Lim, Ashenden's comments, Wiggo 2009, Hesjedal 2012), I don't see why, here in the Clinic, we should treat Garmin as innocent until proven guilty? In the standard press and court rooms, ok, but in here? meh.

Yet you post with such confidence that Garmin are in fact doping.

The problem is that some of the stuff you have listed as compelling evidence is not compelling at all.

You have admitted elsewhere that being based in Giona is of no value as evidence of doping yet here you are again listing it as evidence.

What has Weltz doping during his career or being an enabler during his Postal days got to do with being a team director at Garmin. The team has never claimed to only employ people with spotless resume's as JV was a doper himself. How is having Weltz as a director evidence of doping.

The only relationship between Lim and doping is that he helped Landis with logistics. Landis has stated on record that Lim had no part in his actual doping. Again even if you consider him dodgy, he falls under the same category as JV, Weltz, Millar and all the other former Postal riders. Garmin are not SKY.

The whole White/Lowe saga, nobody seems to know the full story on so I generally don't comment on that.

On the Ashenden comments, you are once more making assumptions that may or may not be correct. Maybe he is referring to SKY and Garmin or maybe he is referring to one team and doesn't want to make it too obvious. We don't know but you guys are claiming to know exactly to whom he is referring.

Actually when you put it all together, there is very little decent evidence of anything other than what you want to believe.

You keep projecting the standards set by SKY onto Garmin and then bashing them for not doing things they never claimed to do.

People can throw **** at Garmin all they want. I would just like to see some realism and balance and not just ridiculous proof of doping with no substance.

 

[ChrisE]

Did you see the article on CN? Someone called him and told him something is going on - but refused to go public. He hung up and then penned a missive to publish hinting that things are no different, just in a different guise. He specifically mentioned "new-age" teams, data bending and propaganda.

You really should try visiting more often

Yes, I should. I can only take this place in small doses, though. BTW, I've been reading alot of your posts and thanks for the contribution. Good stuff.

In this case I did read the article. I try to do that because when I toss something out there about a hero in a non-**** sniffing sense, I usually get called on it and have to defend it. I am not talking about his whole article in general; only a certain part. I agree omerta still exists, and that is one of the reasons along with JV's puzzling tap dance I call BS on his schtick, unless he answers my single question with logic.

On the particular issue I am posting about here, the issue that sniper is hung up about 'new age teams' and who he is talking about, is vague and worthless. This, in light of his 'why can't we all be honest' type attitude.

If he is talking about Garmin and/or Sky, then say it. Say what he knows. He needs to take his own advice.

 

[the big ring]

If he is talking about Garmin and/or Sky, then say it. Say what he knows. He needs to take his own advice.

If it's an employee of a team talking to him in confidence, I think he should not have said anything - it's grand standing and if we know who the new-age teams are, the friggin new-age teams know it too. I was thinking phone records would have been on the hitlist at certain teams after that letter.

I can understand his frustration at learning something from someone on a team, and not being able to do anything about it, and lashing out as he has done. I can empathise with that.

I just personally think it's dangerous (for the snitch) and unprofessional (?) as all it does is stir the pot. I am not sure any good comes of it - I certainly don't think the new-age teams are gonna change.

 

[ChrisE]

If it's an employee of a team talking to him in confidence, I think he should not have said anything - it's grand standing and if we know who the new-age teams are, the friggin new-age teams know it too. I was thinking phone records would have been on the hitlist at certain teams after that letter.

I can understand his frustration at learning something from someone on a team, and not being able to do anything about it, and lashing out as he has done. I can empathise with that.

I just personally think it's dangerous (for the snitch) and unprofessional (?) as all it does is stir the pot. I am not sure any good comes of it - I certainly don't think the new-age teams are gonna change.

Exactly. There are situations where you cannot run your mouth and this is one of them.

That is my point....what was his point in referencing only the 'new age' teams? Are we to believe they are the only ones, and OPQS for example is squeaky clean? He should have just said omerta still exists and be done with it.

That is the whole issue inre to both of these teams. If we all believe omerta still exists and doping still occurs in other teams, then it is preposterous we should give the benefit of the doubt to those who claim they are clean that win GT's, especially if they claim testing is inadequate.

 

[sniper]

Yet you post with such confidence that Garmin are in fact doping.

The problem is that some of the stuff you have listed as compelling evidence is not compelling at all.

You have admitted elsewhere that being based in Giona is of no value as evidence of doping yet here you are again listing it as evidence.

What has Weltz doping during his career or being an enabler during his Postal days got to do with being a team director at Garmin. The team has never claimed to only employ people with spotless resume's as JV was a doper himself. How is having Weltz as a director evidence of doping.

The only relationship between Lim and doping is that he helped Landis with logistics. Landis has stated on record that Lim had no part in his actual doping. Again even if you consider him dodgy, he falls under the same category as JV, Weltz, Millar and all the other former Postal riders. Garmin are not SKY.

The whole White/Lowe saga, nobody seems to know the full story on so I generally don't comment on that.

On the Ashenden comments, you are once more making assumptions that may or may not be correct. Maybe he is referring to SKY and Garmin or maybe he is referring to one team and doesn't want to make it too obvious. We don't know but you guys are claiming to know exactly to whom he is referring.

Actually when you put it all together, there is very little decent evidence of anything other than what you want to believe.

You keep projecting the standards set by SKY onto Garmin and then bashing them for not doing things they never claimed to do.

People can throw **** at Garmin all they want. I would just like to see some realism and balance and not just ridiculous proof of doping with no substance.

i said girona as a stand-alone fact is worthless evidence. that is why i bring it up only in a context of other more or less dodgy facts, the sum of which results in a rather muddy picture. and to be sure, i fully agree, the term 'evidence' is not called for here. It's merely issues that I'd like to see more transparently.

I'm just saying, if a team wants to dope, girona is a favorable place to live. That doesn't make Garmin guilty, but it's one of those cloudy issues that i'd like to see more transparently.

talking about girona, it is nice to see that White is based there with Greenedge. So in 2009(10?) garmin supposedly 'dump' White over the Del Moral affair, yet they conveniently continued to live side by side in good ol' girona (indeed, that same girona, where the drugstores sell you epo without prescription.)
The perception back then was "wow, look at JV taking resolute anti-doping measurements". The reality is probably slightly more complex.
Which leads me to ask: is White still performing services of any kind for Garmin (riders)? One would assume, being neighbours and all, White and JV at least go for the occasional coffee together?

Regarding Wiggins: he used to train (or do tests) in Girona when at garmin. Does anybody know if he's been sighted in Girona while at Sky?

 

[the big ring]

Regarding Wiggins: he used to train (or do tests) in Girona when at garmin. Does anybody know if he's been sighted in Girona while at Sky?

Girona's for the plebs mate. Tenerife Toffs all the way for the Sky crew. Toodle pip eh what? Tally ho!

 

[pmcg76]

i said girona as a stand-alone fact is worthless evidence. that is why i bring it up only in a context of other more or less dodgy facts, the sum of which results in a rather muddy picture. and to be sure, i fully agree, the term 'evidence' is not called for here. It's merely issues that I'd like to see more transparently.

but talking about girona, it is nice to see that White is based there with Greenedge. So in 2009(10?) garmin supposedly 'dump' White over the Del Moral affair, yet they conveniently continued to live side by side in good ol' girona (indeed, that same girona, where the drugstores sell you epo without prescription.)
The perception back then was "wow, look at JV taking resolute anti-doping measurements". The reality is probably slightly more complex.

I'm just saying, if a team wants to dope, girona is a favorable place to live. That doesn't make Garmin guilty, but it's one of those cloudy issues that i'd like to see more transparently.

Which leads me to ask: is White still performing services of any kind for Garmin (riders)?

Regarding Wiggins: he used to train (or do tests) in Girona when at garmin. Does anybody know if he's been sighted in Girona while at Sky?

Everywhere is favorable for doping in case you didn't notice. Why is Girona more favorable than say San Sebastain, Belgium or Italy?

Once more you are back to trying to create news where there is none. In case you didn't notice, Greenedge have quite a few former Garmin riders who mostly lived in, you guessed it Girona. Did you also know that Spidertech, UnitedHealthcare, Rabobank and a few other riders are based there also.

You truly are a *** of epic levels.

 

[GJB123]

i said girona as a stand-alone fact is worthless evidence. that is why i bring it up only in a context of other more or less dodgy facts, the sum of which results in a rather muddy picture. and to be sure, i fully agree, the term 'evidence' is not called for here. It's merely issues that I'd like to see more transparently.

I'm just saying, if a team wants to dope, girona is a favorable place to live. That doesn't make Garmin guilty, but it's one of those cloudy issues that i'd like to see more transparently.

talking about girona, it is nice to see that White is based there with Greenedge. So in 2009(10?) garmin supposedly 'dump' White over the Del Moral affair, yet they conveniently continued to live side by side in good ol' girona (indeed, that same girona, where the drugstores sell you epo without prescription.)
The perception back then was "wow, look at JV taking resolute anti-doping measurements". The reality is probably slightly more complex.
Which leads me to ask: is White still performing services of any kind for Garmin (riders)? One would assume, being neighbours and all, White and JV at least go for the occasional coffee together?

Regarding Wiggins: he used to train (or do tests) in Girona when at garmin. Does anybody know if he's been sighted in Girona while at Sky?

Knock it off with the Girona-thingy. It is getting really tiresome. FFS, Hamilton and Armstrong were neighbors while hardly talking to each other. Every time you get called on it, you say you don't mean it to be as evidence or doing anything wrong only to turn around and say quite the opposite. I mean look at your post above, where you do exactly the same in just one friggin' post.

Regards
GJ

 

[sniper]

Everywhere is favorable for doping in case you didn't notice. Why is Girona more favorable than say San Sebastain, Belgium or Italy?

Once more you are back to trying to create news where there is none. In case you didn't notice, Greenedge have quite a few former Garmin riders who mostly lived in, you guessed it Girona. Did you also know that Spidertech, UnitedHealthcare, Rabobank and a few other riders are based there also.

You truly are a *** of epic levels.

are you seriously saying "Spidertech, UnitedHealthcare, Rabobank and a few other riders" are all clean? Hate to break it to you, but there are dopers in their midst. I guess you'd agree with me on that, though, wouldn't you?
So how exactly should the previous and current presence of a whole series of dopers in Girona make me believe that Garmin aren't there to dope?

 

[GJB123]

are you seriously saying "Spidertech, UnitedHealthcare, Rabobank and a few other riders" are all clean? Hate to break it to you, but there are dopers in their midst. I guess you'd agree with me on that, though, wouldn't you?
So how exactly should the presence of dopers in Girona cause me to drop the topic of Girona?

You know; a cow is an animal, so are you seriously saying all animals are cows?

In other words:
- yes, some riders dope,
- yes, some of those riders live Girona
- no, not all riders living in Girona dope by definition. That assumption is just plain stupid and offering it as evidence of doping no less, is indeed borderline ***.