JV talks, sort of

[ToreBear]

AFAIK he was always clean.

But, if there is any dispute whatsoever, that was his cleanest moment.

Dave.

Yep I thought you were joking. Just wanted to be sure. I don't like to be the bearer of bad news, at least not unintentionally. Kinda like getting too drunk on christhmas and spilling the beans of Santas real identity in front of the children.

As for his cleanest moment, good point! Cleanness is after all a contrast to the dirtiness of ones suroundings.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

So in the case of CSC, there would be the testimony of CVV, Tyler Hamilton and lets include other ex CSC/Garmin riders DZ and Julian Dean. Would those testimonies suffice in the absence of any other actual evidence. Could those guys rely on the sporting authorities to secure the depth of evidence that is available on US Postal for exampl. Would other unsanctioned CSC rider's tell the truth in front of the UCI, Danish Federation or WADA? I doubt it.

This is not a simple case of spilling the beans and things will work out. Guys like Kimmage, Landis, Manzano, Jaksche or Hamilton had very little to lose when they broke 'ometra'. They were already out of cycling and were either already disgraced or nobodies. All the Garmin guys are still active.

I think if people really expect people to sacrifice their career's for something then there should be at least a guaranteed result to off-set the risk and right now there isn't, so its totally understandable why nobody goes involuntarily to the authorities.

We also have Basso, Lombardi, who knows maybe Frank Schleck might be encouraged to speak out as well. When Landis blew the whistle who knew that Hamilton and 9 others would speak out, so who knows who might speak out if CVV or whoever were to trigger an investigation into CSC, or HH into Gerol.

Regarding the last point - this is where Garmin and JV I think have to take the lead in providing a team/set up which can give some measure of security (financial and otherwise) to riders who are prepared to blow the whistle. To help to offset the risk of blowing the whistle. A safe harbour for want of a better word. This is where Garmin as a team and JV as a DS/Owner can and IMO should take the lead.

Ultimately, this is one for JV and whether he feels active riders should be encouraged to break omerta and blow the whistle about doping and what he thinks can and should be done to encourage it and to protect those riders. (Assuming of course he is in favour of it).

 

[pmcg76]

We also have Basso, Lombardi, who knows maybe Frank Schleck might be encouraged to speak out as well. When Landis blew the whistle who knew that Hamilton and 9 others would speak out, so who knows who might speak out if CVV or whoever were to trigger an investigation into CSC, or HH into Gerol.

Regarding the last point - this is where Garmin and JV I think have to take the lead in providing a team/set up which can give some measure of security (financial and otherwise) to riders who are prepared to blow the whistle. To help to offset the risk of blowing the whistle. A safe harbour for want of a better word. This is where Garmin as a team and JV as a DS/Owner can and IMO should take the lead.

Ultimately, this is one for JV and whether he feels active riders should be encouraged to break omerta and blow the whistle about doping and what he thinks can and should be done to encourage it and to protect those riders. (Assuming of course he is in favour of it).

But that is a falsehood, they didn't speak out, they were called in front of a Grand Jury where the punishment for lying is jail-time. They then told the truth to USADA because if they changed their story and the FBI intervened again, they could face jail-time.

If the 9 guys had just been facing USADA, things would have probably gone in a different direction which is my whole point. What sport's authorities are capable of getting the required evidence to make the risk of admitting worthwhile. In the case of CSC, why would Basso, Lombardi or Schleck say anything?

Lets analyse some former investigations, according to Philip Gaumont, everyone was doping at Cofidis apart from Moncoutie and Tombak. How many riders, team-managers etc served suspensions from that investigation. Very few.

The Puerto scandal, allegedly over 50 pro riders involved. How many were suspended. Valverde, Basso and Scarponi and the latter two only because they admitted and the former only because the Italians wanted revenge. Now this case is coming back again 6 years later, would you really risk two years of your career for an investigation that might be solved after 6 years.

The US Postal investigation was different because it involved the Feds and the real possibility of jail-time. That is the level of threat required for revelations to occur.

 

[the big ring]

he trained in Girona and Manchester, mainly. He was coached by Rod Ellingworth (sp?)

Manchester, England?

 

[the big ring]

Disagree - I think you guys are obsessed with Garmin/Sky. Ashendon's statement had nothing to indicate what teams he referred to. Nothing, nothing at all. "New age" is meaningless - it arguably applies to pretty much EVERY team out there today. We are ALL in the new age!

Ashenden mentions "data bending".

Please list any team with public statements about data:

Garmin (Brad's 2009 values, Ryder's 2012 values)
Sky (constant reference to power values up climbs justifying performance)
Astana (Armstrong's blood values)

Any others?

Teams - not individual riders like Frei, we are discussing teams.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ashenden mentions "data bending".

Please list any team with public statements about data:

Garmin (Brad's 2009 values, Ryder's 2012 values)
Sky (constant reference to power values up climbs justifying performance)
Astana (Armstrong's blood values)

Any others?

Teams - not individual riders like Frei, we are discussing teams.

Are "we" - lets check what Ashenden says, shall we?

First, there must be something to hide. Despite the self-serving data bending and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers even within ‘new age’ cycling teams. Personally, I don’t accept that the ‘dark era’ has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

Data bending - I took that to be a swipe at the UCI.

 

[the big ring]

Are "we" - lets check what Ashenden says, shall we?

Despite the self-serving data bending and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers even within ‘new age’ cycling teams.

Data bending - I took that to be a swipe at the UCI.

I took it to be a swipe at the teams. "New age" teams in fact. He's saying "despite the data bending". ie data is being used (and bent) to justify "clean". Which data have the UCI released? UCI don't release data to the public.


Teams do. So far we have Sky, Garmin and Astana.

That's off the top of my head, because it is so widely publicised and recent. Got any others?

Sky mention power values, and Garmin and Astana release passport data.

And when it's released, what does JV say about the results, because they are not perfect?

The UCI's machines are not quite right: http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/post/31367299894/expert-analysis-ryder-hesjedal-2012-giro-blood

6. may 3rd hgb 16.0
or hgb just before giro start
nearly equals his season high 16.1
not normal
(at this point in the season , yuh’d expect some volume expansion and a lower hgb)
explanations

a. Altitude camp ?
vaughters says no

b. lab error
vaughters says yes
hct at giro start was high across the board

so did the lab screw up ?
ie not good

2009 Wiggins Giro values:

2009 Wiggins TdF values:

2012 Hesjedal Giro values:

NB: Ryder became leader of the Giro on May 12th, and remained leader May 13th and 14th. He was not tested until his 3rd day in the leader's jersey. That slight jump in Ryder's Hgb was from a test taken on May 14th.

I am not an expert. I am not saying they are doping. I just recognise patterns. The expected trend is for Hgb to go down over a 3 week tour. And in the 3 passport datasets released by Garmin, each one has seen an increase in Hgb in the 3rd week of a GT.

And I am pretty sure it is just written off as "lab error". Propaganda? Data-bending?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I took it to be a swipe at the teams. "New age" teams in fact. He's saying "despite the data bending". ie data is being used (and bent) to justify "clean". Which data have the UCI released? UCI don't release data to the public.

Teams do. So far we have Sky, Garmin and Astana.

<snipped fro brevity>

Ashenden quote:
First, there must be something to hide. Despite the self-serving data bending and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers even within ‘new age’ cycling teams. Personally, I don’t accept that the ‘dark era’ has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

If he meant data bending of teams, then there is no need to add the distinction - also, you have added the data, so how is it bent?
As I said - it appears to be about the UCI and 'their interpretation' of things like the Bio-passport.

 

[JV1973]

I took it to be a swipe at the teams. "New age" teams in fact. He's saying "despite the data bending". ie data is being used (and bent) to justify "clean". Which data have the UCI released? UCI don't release data to the public.


Teams do. So far we have Sky, Garmin and Astana.

That's off the top of my head, because it is so widely publicised and recent. Got any others?

Sky mention power values, and Garmin and Astana release passport data.

And when it's released, what does JV say about the results, because they are not perfect?

The UCI's machines are not quite right: http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/post/31367299894/expert-analysis-ryder-hesjedal-2012-giro-blood


2009 Wiggins Giro values:

2009 Wiggins TdF values:

2012 Hesjedal Giro values:

NB: Ryder became leader of the Giro on May 12th, and remained leader May 13th and 14th. He was not tested until his 3rd day in the leader's jersey. That slight jump in Ryder's Hgb was from a test taken on May 14th.

I am not an expert. I am not saying they are doping. I just recognise patterns. The expected trend is for Hgb to go down over a 3 week tour. And in the 3 passport datasets released by Garmin, each one has seen an increase in Hgb in the 3rd week of a GT.

And I am pretty sure it is just written off as "lab error". Propaganda? Data-bending?

Lab error was only in the first reading. I only know that, as I spoke with many other team doctors that said they got very high readings at the start of Giro, so it seemed to be systemic, not isolated. This happens. A blood sample left at room temp just a bit too long is totally screwed up.

I don't see anything erroneous in the all of the other readings. Blood values do drop over 3 weeks, but never in a perfect linear fashion. Remember, hydration status, at the moment of the test, can have large impacts. Along with plasma retention, which can be affected by something as simple as weather (ever notice you pee more at the start of a cold ride?)

I've been observing blood values since about 1996, and I've seen doped, micro-doped, and undoped profiles aplenty. While I don't have the education level of many researchers, my bet is I might not be so bad at understanding these profiles.

I wouldn't release this stuff if I thought the riders in question weren't clean. I'd just fire them instead. It's really only logical.

 

[D-Queued]

...

I wouldn't release this stuff if I thought the riders in question weren't clean. I'd just fire them instead. It's really only logical.

Takes all the fun out of the thread, though.

Dave.

 

[the big ring]

I'm no expert - I hope I made that clear. I have no idea what it means, I just recognise patterns.

One thing I did find interesting is Ryder's reticulyte % went UP on the final day.

In the morning he was at:

Hb: 14.1
Hct: 43.4
Retic: 1.34

then I am guessing some time after the stage he was at:

Hb: 14.1
Hct: 43.4
Retic 1.71

reticulytes are the new blood cells yeah? So Hb and Hct stayed the same, but he has a bunch more new blood cells, is that right? He has 27% (1.71-1.34/1.34) more after the TT than he did in the morning.

 

[JV1973]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3654450


This is just one example of how sensitive the human body is. Plasma shifts around a lot. If you took every unstable blood profile in the general human population, you'd have biopassport cases for lawyers and garbage collectors going on constantly. This is why the bio passport is trickier than it is made out to be. And it's also why blood values must always be put into pragmatic context by real experts.

 

[D-Queued]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3654450


This is just one example of how sensitive the human body is. Plasma shifts around a lot. If you took every unstable blood profile in the general human population, you'd have biopassport cases for lawyers and garbage collectors going on constantly. This is why the bio passport is trickier than it is made out to be. And it's also why blood values must always be put into pragmatic context by real experts.

Not a good sample set...

...just saying.

I suppose you could have chosen investment bankers and special forces or fighter pilots, though.

Dave.

 

[the big ring]

Man, kidney disease sounds awful. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003637.htm I don't even know how to pronounce the other things except bleeding.

A higher than normal percentage of reticulocytes may indicate:

Bleeding
Erythroblastosis fetalis
Hemolytic anemia
Kidney disease with increased erythropoietin production

 

[JV1973]

We also have Basso, Lombardi, who knows maybe Frank Schleck might be encouraged to speak out as well. When Landis blew the whistle who knew that Hamilton and 9 others would speak out, so who knows who might speak out if CVV or whoever were to trigger an investigation into CSC, or HH into Gerol.

Regarding the last point - this is where Garmin and JV I think have to take the lead in providing a team/set up which can give some measure of security (financial and otherwise) to riders who are prepared to blow the whistle. To help to offset the risk of blowing the whistle. A safe harbour for want of a better word. This is where Garmin as a team and JV as a DS/Owner can and IMO should take the lead.

Ultimately, this is one for JV and whether he feels active riders should be encouraged to break omerta and blow the whistle about doping and what he thinks can and should be done to encourage it and to protect those riders. (Assuming of course he is in favour of it).

While I don't disagree with your proposition, it isn't going to be a path I take, for a number of reasons:

1. To assume that a rider was privy to doping programs or even witness to, just because they were on a team is incorrect. Perhaps in 1998, yes, but as enforcement clamped down, so too did the "inner circle" in each team. By early-mid 2000's, there were very few teams where riders would be open or anything less than extremely covert about any possible doping with other riders.

2. I think you vastly underestimate the political strain I have put my team under by even taking the position we have, which you deem "not good enough"... I cannot destroy a 100+ person organization due to being over zealous. My opinion would be that we've moved things in a very positive direction in a very short period of time. Changing a 100 year old culture isn't something that's easy. While Manzano and others have been the catalyst for movement, there actually has to be someone inside the sport that is willing to move things once the fire is set.
I know I catch a lot of heat, from both sides of this issue. But to me, that means I'm navigating it, just right. Get it changed without becoming a martyr.
That's a tightrope.

 

[slowspoke]

JV,

Thank you for posting these and for the love of God can we stop abusing the ONE DS who comes here and is open and engaging? If JV really had something to hide why would he do this? It's not like the Hog or Riis is here doing the same?

 

[sittingbison]

lawyers have no blood, they are blood sucking leeches. So they have a transfusion with billing every client

Lawyers
pre billing
Hb: 0.0
Hct: 0.0
Retic: 0.0

billing:
Hb: 18.1
Hct: 63.4
Retic: 2.34

 

[sittingbison]

While I don't disagree with your proposition, it isn't going to be a path I take, for a number of reasons:

1. To assume that a rider was privy to doping programs or even witness to, just because they were on a team is incorrect. Perhaps in 1998, yes, but as enforcement clamped down, so too did the "inner circle" in each team. By early-mid 2000's, there were very few teams where riders would be open or anything less than extremely covert about any possible doping with other riders.

2. I think you vastly underestimate the political strain I have put my team under by even taking the position we have, which you deem "not good enough"... I cannot destroy a 100+ person organization due to being over zealous. My opinion would be that we've moved things in a very positive direction in a very short period of time. Changing a 100 year old culture isn't something that's easy. While Manzano and others have been the catalyst for movement, there actually has to be someone inside the sport that is willing to move things once the fire is set.
I know I catch a lot of heat, from both sides of this issue. But to me, that means I'm navigating it, just right. Get it changed without becoming a martyr.
That's a tightrope.

1) ergo et demonstratum Wiggo Froome Rogers Porte

2) Thats what I always thought you were about

 

[ChewbaccaD]

lawyers have no blood, they are blood sucking leeches. So they have a transfusion with billing every client

Lawyers
pre billing
Hb: 0.0
Hct: 0.0
Retic: 0.0

billing:
Hb: 18.1
Hct: 63.4
Retic: 2.34

In a pinch, we'll feed on small rodents and the occasional dog.

 

[User Guide]

Quick and simple question here JV...
1, how many tests a year is the passport supposed to need to be effective.
2, how many tests actually happen.
thx in adv

Edit.. if anyone else knows the answers id be grateful,thx

 

[the big ring]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/dekker-needs-to-lose-up-to-four-kilos

Dekker, 28, told Wielerland Magazine that he did not feel that he could “show what I wanted to show. And I did not ride as I had in mind. That takes time, and I am convinced that I can still do it.”

However, he said, “I still have a few points to improve. In the short stage races and one-day races I did pretty well this year. But for a Grand Tour, I really need to be lighter. There is still a kilo or four to go.”

Dekker, who at 188cm weighs 70kg, according to his team website, said, “It is a matter of eating less. Not during the race, but before and after. Only cycling is not enough, because even after three weeks of the Vuelta [a Espana], I only lost 900 grams.”

Question: like Brad, will Thomas' absolute power remain the same or go up a bit when he loses that final 4kg of unwanted weight?

 

[JV1973]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/dekker-needs-to-lose-up-to-four-kilos


Question: like Brad, will Thomas' absolute power remain the same or go up a bit when he loses that final 4kg of unwanted weight?

Probably. Thomas' extra weight is about half fat, but also about 2 kgs of upper body muscle mass that he acquired while serving his suspension. When you are consistently racing and training your body catabolizes upper body muscle. But when you aren't doing so much exercise, your upper body goes back to a more normal state. I've gained around 3kgs of upper body muscle, without ever lifting weights, just since I quit racing (I've also gained some fat!)...Anyhow, losing that 4 kgs will be very rough for TD. He'll need to put himself in a severely catabolic state on a few occasions to make it happen, as it's not just fat he needs to lose.

The interesting thing in all of this is that it seems that the body catabolizes inactive muscle groups more readily than active ones. When cyclists become very catabolic they tend to eat up their upper bodies more than legs. Amazes me that the endocrine system could be that smart, but there you go.

JV

 

[Elagabalus]

Probably. Thomas' extra weight is about half fat, but also about 2 kgs of upper body muscle mass that he acquired while serving his suspension. When you are consistently racing and training your body catabolizes upper body muscle. But when you aren't doing so much exercise, your upper body goes back to a more normal state. I've gained around 3kgs of upper body muscle, without ever lifting weights, just since I quit racing (I've also gained some fat!)...Anyhow, losing that 4 kgs will be very rough for TD. He'll need to put himself in a severely catabolic state on a few occasions to make it happen, as it's not just fat he needs to lose.

The interesting thing in all of this is that it seems that the body catabolizes inactive muscle groups more readily than active ones. When cyclists become very catabolic they tend to eat up their upper bodies more than legs. Amazes me that the endocrine system could be that smart, but there you go.

JV

This is OT-but since You're here. Don't know whether you saw this or not (it's on the third page) but some questions (just a few) for you from a fan:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18592

And cycling should always be for the fans-like Coca-Cola!.

 

[the big ring]

Probably. Thomas' extra weight is about half fat, but also about 2 kgs of upper body muscle mass that he acquired while serving his suspension. When you are consistently racing and training your body catabolizes upper body muscle. But when you aren't doing so much exercise, your upper body goes back to a more normal state. I've gained around 3kgs of upper body muscle, without ever lifting weights, just since I quit racing (I've also gained some fat!)...Anyhow, losing that 4 kgs will be very rough for TD. He'll need to put himself in a severely catabolic state on a few occasions to make it happen, as it's not just fat he needs to lose.

The interesting thing in all of this is that it seems that the body catabolizes inactive muscle groups more readily than active ones. When cyclists become very catabolic they tend to eat up their upper bodies more than legs. Amazes me that the endocrine system could be that smart, but there you go.

JV

Please note: I did not say relative power (P:W), I said absolute power. For the sake of precision, let's talk absolute FTP: the maximum power he can sustain for 1 hour. Not in W/kg, but in W.

Will Thomas' absolute FTP (W) remain static or increase when he loses 4kg from his current (team website claimed) 70kg?

 

[the big ring]

Looking at what you've said "Thomas' extra weight is about half fat" - so 2kg of fat.

Assume a healthy bf% of 6% @ 66kg. Say 4kg of fat.
66kg ideal weight = A+B+C
A = 4kg fat
B = 28 kg muscle (assuming 30kg of muscle for 70kg male)
C = 66-28-4 = 34kg bone, etc

Fit that back into the equation for current Thomas:

70kg fat weight:
Fat = A+2 = 4+2 = 6kg
Muscle = 30kg
C = 34kg (assuming weightloss does not impact on weight of bone + connective tissue)

So currently, Thomas has a bf% of 6/70 = ~8.5%