JV talks, sort of

[mikkemus23]

He responded to what he could - but because it does not fit your warped view you are not happy.
I don't remember an odd rant - I do vaguely remember he called you an idiot or clueless, which you confirm with every keystroke.

Lighten up, doc!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sigh.

That's his final relapse, which we have mentioned already. That's what we already knew about.

What we didn't know is that he doped at CA before that, and from what he had told us the vast majority of people would have come to the conclusion he didn't dope before that.

Yes, I was under the mistaken impression that Vaughters only doped once/during one period while with Credit Agricole.

I wouldn't have guessed that he was doping in 2000 and 2001 as well.

But those are meaningless details apparently.

Ok.
Finally I get your points. (and would agree)

But again he wasn't inconsistent - he just never went in to the detail. Before his public confession, I would have assumed that JV doped at USPS and stopped doping at CA. The NYT piece showed that it went on further - and his comments on this forum and the Bicycling interview show that it was more than one occasion.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I have a question for JV and it concerns rider 21, who some people suspect of being Hesjedal (but who may not be).

Did you ask Hesjedal when he signed for you about whether he had been involved in doping at USP/Disco/Phonak? If not, why not?

 

[pastronef]

how do you think Vaughters and his 3 riders have decided to come out, and also do they have a plan for next year, and for the questions that will come, and for Vaughters' role in Slipstream Sports?

they certainly have been planning for this thing to happen since July or even before, not to be hit so strong. and not to let the other riders on the team be hit by this problem.
hey, the Garmin team MUST keep on riding. i am not kidding

 

[pastronef]

http://mobile.twitter.com/Vaughters/status/256444199195525120

VdV, Danielson, Zab will stay with Garmin in 2013. confirmed by Vaughters

 

[Tinman]

JV talks to CN Daniel Benson today calling for a separate and independent investigation:

"Jonathan Vaughters, who manages Garmin-Sharp, and who confessed to doping during the USADA investigation with his own 22 page affidavit told Cyclingnews that any decisions over the UCI’s governance should be decided after a separate and independent investigation.

“Obviously I think that there needs to be thorough and independent look at the leadership and what was going in at that time. The strategic and executive leadership during the period of time that the USADA investigation covers needs to be examined in a thorough manner.”

“So of the decision making that has gone on there in the past needs to be audited and reviewed. This investigation is a catalyst to make that happen.”

Any suggestions JV who should head up the investigation and under whose auspices this should be conducted? Vrijman and UCI come to mind...?

 

[Willy_Voet]

I'm sure many of the folks in this thread will have read the the Betsy Andreu story with interest, particularly those passages regarding JV. May ease a little of the misdirected vitriol.

“Of all the guys Frankie has ever ridden with, two people supported Frankie. One was Greg LeMond, the other was JV. JV was the only teammate, the only one, who supported us from the very beginning through this thing."

 

[skidmark]

I'm sure many of the folks in this thread will have read the the Betsy Andreu story with interest, particularly those passages regarding JV. May ease a little of the misdirected vitriol.

“Of all the guys Frankie has ever ridden with, two people supported Frankie. One was Greg LeMond, the other was JV. JV was the only teammate, the only one, who supported us from the very beginning through this thing."

Yeah, reading that today has put me over the top in terms of my conviction that Vaughters means what he says. Betsy's pretty much been the gold standard for honesty in this forum for years, and alongside the fact that Vaughters' arguments here are logical and consistent, and the fact that he's forthcoming about the past, paints a good picture.

I really don't know what it's like inside the peloton so I suppose there is a possibility that even a staunch 'anti-doping' stance in today's cycling just means getting away with what you can but not f*cking with your blood (I'm sure alot of riders were as freaked out as Danielson said, not wanting to turn out like Ricco or something), but I'm gonna err on the side of trusting the guy.

 

[AcademyCC]

JV talked me round pretty well last time he was in here. I went away happy enough Garmin are above board.

Anyway, one thing that has been bothering me is his revelation in here about his riders doping past. He denied this was planned but he was 110% getting that info out there before the storm hit.

He came out saying this was him being stupid and not a premeditated PR stunt. He tried to sell us hes some bumbling plonker. He most certainly is not.

I'd have done the same thing in his shoes and it must be difficult navigating his way round this minefield. I just wish he hadn't tried to play the stupid card, it leaves a little doubt in my head.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Betsy's words about JV are significant. Whenever someone honest and well connected talks about JV, they have the same message about his anti-doping stance.

Staying within the sport but sticking to your principles is an absolute minefield to navigate. JV has gone about it with real pragmatism, keeping his eye on the big picture, picking his battles, taking his wins where he could get them and living to fight another day. People underestimate how tough it is to successfully swim against the tide for that long. I respect him for it.

Of course I don't always like his methods, but that's not the point. When we identify one of the good guys, whose efforts are making some difference, we need to support them IMO. Otherwise those who want change shoot themselves in the foot with the old divide and conquere routine.

 

[nevada]

Something in the transcripts of Barry that says JV had
Eft ampules in credit Agricola bags - JV says he stopped at CA. Something not right there.

Also, time for Millard to fess up, completely.

 

[AcademyCC]

Betsy's words about JV are significant. Whenever someone honest and well connected talks about JV, they have the same message about his anti-doping stance.

Staying within the sport but sticking to your principles is an absolute minefield to navigate. JV has gone about it with real pragmatism, keeping his eye on the big picture, picking his battles, taking his wins where he could get them and living to fight another day. People underestimate how tough it is to successfully swim against the tide for that long. I respect him for it.

Of course I don't always like his methods, but that's not the point. When we identify one of the good guys, whose efforts are making some difference, we need to support them IMO. Otherwise those who want change shoot themselves in the foot with the old divide and conquere routine.

Your completely right and nicely put. Especially the point about staying in the sport. That is and has been so important. If Lance had got his way JV would have been dusted long ago. It's such a complicated situation that their is no correct way, just his judgement on how to move things forward. I'm with him, my only issue was don't make a statement and hide behind a fallacy. Make the statement and stand behind it.

 

[JV1973]

Your completely right and nicely put. Especially the point about staying in the sport. That is and has been so important. If Lance had got his way JV would have been dusted long ago. It's such a complicated situation that their is no correct way, just his judgement on how to move things forward. I'm with him, my only issue was don't make a statement and hide behind a fallacy. Make the statement and stand behind it.

My outing of my boys was a mistake. But I thought it was the right thing to do.Makes no sense, right? Basically, my PR people told me not to put anything ahead of usada, I did anyway, but only because I got into a heated argument, here, and lost my composure a bit. As to say, it was bubbling beneath the surface and I let it out, despite the advice of others. I did what i thought was right, but it was still unintentional, in the strictest sense.

As for CA, yes I doped there. Its in my affidavit, its on this forum, it's on bicycling.com...

 

[Arnout]

Something in the transcripts of Barry that says JV had
Eft ampules in credit Agricola bags - JV says he stopped at CA. Something not right there.

Also, time for Millard to fess up, completely.

As Mr Vaughters said above me, this was clarified a long time ago.

And indeed, thanks to Betsy Andreu and also the way this whole episode turned out I have a lot more trust in JV and Garmin. Still like to see more numbers though, as simply believing is hard.

I still have one question though: Mr Vaughters, you often say that a scientific approach and marginal gains and what have you can now beat dopers, thanks to the blood passport and better controls etc. However, what if you do marginal gains and dope within the limits? I understand that a donkey will never be a racehorse, even less so than 10, 15 years ago, but assuming equal talent and preparation, doping will still give the edge, right?

 

[hrotha]

I can see why people question JV's version of the event, but I find it very believable. It's very telling that it took a while for anyone to point out that the outing of the Garmin riders (although the only one who was 100% explicitly outed was Tommy D) was kind of a big deal, because everybody participating in the discussion already knew, and JV knew we knew. In those circumstances it makes perfect sense that he'd let his guard down and say more than he should have or planned to.

 

[Arnout]

I can see why people question JV's version of the event, but I find it very believable. It's very telling that it took a while for anyone to point out that the outing of the Garmin riders (although the only one who was 100% explicitly outed was Tommy D) was kind of a big deal, because everybody participating in the discussion already knew, and JV knew we knew. In those circumstances it makes perfect sense that he'd say more than he should have or planned to.

I also think it is a lot harder to say what you think when still involved in cycling and involved in this case than it is as a poster of the clinic. We tend to forget that once in a while.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I can see why people question JV's version of the event, but I find it very believable. It's very telling that it took a while for anyone to point out that the outing of the Garmin riders (although the only one who was 100% explicitly outed was Tommy D) was kind of a big deal, because everybody participating in the discussion already knew, and JV knew we knew. In those circumstances it makes perfect sense that he'd let his guard down and say more than he should have or planned to.

But the question is - what about the riders he hasn't outed?

What about ryder h? What about riders on other dodgy teams such as HH?

Every answer opens up more questions.

 

[the asian]

But the question is - what about the riders he hasn't outed?

What about ryder h? What about riders on other dodgy teams such as HH?

Every answer opens up more questions.

Obviously no rider will sign for your team if you insist that they come clean and tell everything they know about doping practices to the relevant authorities, because the riders will most probably get an one year ban.

 

[Froome19]

Well the problem is that now the teams which have come out with what has been labelled staunch anti-doping stances are now being considered just as vulnerable as all the other teams due to their riders involvement in the Lance case.

Once again the riders do not seem to be pushed, JV could have pushed Millar for info, Sky could have pushed Barry rather than just asking him whether he was doping. He was never going to break omerta in the first place so what was the point. If these teams do not put more pressure on their riders than their words and bold statements are meaningless.

 

[AcademyCC]

My outing of my boys was a mistake. But I thought it was the right thing to do.Makes no sense, right? Basically, my PR people told me not to put anything ahead of usada, I did anyway, but only because I got into a heated argument, here, and lost my composure a bit. As to say, it was bubbling beneath the surface and I let it out, despite the advice of others. I did what i thought was right, but it was still unintentional, in the strictest sense.

As for CA, yes I doped there. Its in my affidavit, its on this forum, it's on bicycling.com...

Thanks for coming back to us on this boyo. I know you probably still can't say too much but you must be dancing inside. Just don't hit me with anymore guff that your stupid. I will ask that in anyway you can please please please try to move this process forward so that we can all enjoy fully the sport that we love. It's the best in the world, i think that's the only reason your still about, because you think so to. Everyone is behind you.

 

[thehog]

My outing of my boys was a mistake. But I thought it was the right thing to do.Makes no sense, right? Basically, my PR people told me not to put anything ahead of usada, I did anyway, but only because I got into a heated argument, here, and lost my composure a bit. As to say, it was bubbling beneath the surface and I let it out, despite the advice of others. I did what i thought was right, but it was still unintentional, in the strictest sense.

As for CA, yes I doped there. Its in my affidavit, its on this forum, it's on bicycling.com...

So JV... What's next for Lance do you think? and do you think the UCI will take this to CAS?

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Obviously no rider will sign for your team if you insist that they come clean and tell everything they know about doping practices to the relevant authorities, because the riders will most probably get an one year ban.

and yet he makes Dekker walk over coals because he wants to be certain he won't dope again.

I don't understand why JV treats convicted dopers differently from unconvicted dopers, even if he knows the truth about both.

Look at RH's choice of teams - USP, Phonak - teams that JV has to have been at least familiar with and their practices.

Why would you set up safeguards to make sure the likes of Dekker don't go reaching for the cookie jar but not for someone like RH?

Does Garmin operate a doping 'don't ask, don't tell' policy when it comes to the unconvicted?

 

[Froome19]

Tbh Dekker was obviously different to the others as Dekker had not proven that he would race without doping whilst the others had already done so.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Tbh Dekker was obviously different to the others as Dekker had not proven that he would race without doping whilst the others had already done so.

How did JV know that when he signed them?

The only difference is that Dekker got caught - it seems that JV's concern with making sure ex-dopers don't dope again only runs to those who have been busted because it makes PR sense.

Dekker, JJ etc are all some how more predisposed to doping again than riders who haven't been busted but who were active dopers on their former teams? come on...

 

[Benotti69]

Tbh Dekker was obviously different to the others as Dekker had not proven that he would race without doping whilst the others had already done so.

That is a big assumption.