JV talks, sort of

[Mrs John Murphy]

ok, forgot the
of course it's not the same.
but when i confronted JV with my view that his talk about clean cycling ("truce") is inconsistent with the facts and thus that it resembles PR, he didn't address the issues at hand (e.g. Contador2008/9/10, Armstrogn 2009/10, etc.), but instead attacks the messenger (me in this case) saying I don't know **** about PR, because "the best PR is to stay away from this forum". But he's never (re-)addressed Contador Armstrong Bruyneel Riis etc., and how those names are fully inconsistent with his claim that cycling got so much cleaner after 2008. IMO he's using his being on here under his real name as a deflection away from difficult questions.
He refuses to address the nasty issues but continues to gratuitely speak of clean cycling and truces, etc.

But JV is a charming man, I won't blame anybody for falling for him.

Yes, the only person who he doesn't want involved in cycling is Ricco. Who is i) out of the sport and ii) other than Rasmussen, about the easiest target in cycling.

He is very reluctant to break omerta about currently active members of the peloton and that is frustrating for people, because what they see with their eyes when they see Dertie Cont, Piti and Froome riding up mountains as if on motorbikes does not square with what JV is telling us. By refusing to confirm what is 'obvious' to many, he appears to be 'maintaining omerta' and his comments about clean cycling appear to be blatantly unsustainable and untrue.

You can not claim it is hot sunny in the middle of a blizzard, which is what JV appears to be doing.

It is very easy to condemn Armstrong, Ricco, Rasmussen, JJ even the UCI.

However, the reality is that JV has to work with Riis, Dertie Cont, Movistar, Ekimov, Katusha, Sky, Froome etc so he's not going to call out anyone that he might 'need' at a later date.

Thus it appears that JV is playing a double or treble game. On the one hand preaching clean racing to the public, but at the same time, refusing to discuss or condemn the current peloton.

I have a simple question for JV - can you tell me in your opinion the 3 biggest obstacles or barriers to a clean peloton - ie the Spanish riders/authorities, inability to exclude dopers from the sport, entrenched attitudes towards doping among some teams/riders socialising junior riders, weak and incompetent cycling media, etc etc

 

[thirteen]

I know what an e-ticket is, thank you.

As far as I am aware, you cannot buy someone else a ticket, otherwise the whole anti-terrorist security thing becomes very easy to circumvent, surely?

I was under the impression you had to present proof of ID to purchase a plane ticket. If that is not the case, great, but I would still like to understand how that happens.

my boyfriend buys me tickets all the time... and i buy some for him.

as long as the ticket is in the name of the person flying, anyone can pay for it.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Are you implying that you think this rider is/was (otherwise) dirty? The way you phrased it is interesting.

The deduction has to be that it was either: Sastre or Moncoutie as they are the only riders the clinic has been known to consider 'clean'.

 

[Benotti69]

I don't tell my team not to dope. I spend over $500,000 annually to make sure they don't.

the same system could no doubt be used to make sure riders that are doping dont test positive in a race or OOC test.

the statistically worst blood profile I have ever seen was from a rider that this forum constantly refers to as "clean"... Did he dope at the time of his profile blip? No, I doubt it, as his performance was sub par, not suspiciously over par. Context.

Moncoutie? Or Sastre ( who not too many believe he was clean)

Why would you get to see his profile?

Were you trying to hire either?

Maybe the actions of someone trying to get booted out of the sport!!

If you were trying to get booted out of the sport you would've done a Kimmage.

You have been very clever at positioning yourself on the right side of not getting sued, booted or other that would ruin your team in the sport.

I guess the UCI could've made a Slipstream rider test positive should you have pi$$ed them off enough but you are not trying hard enough!

Must try harder!

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I think it is Moncoutie because even Bennoti thinks he is clean


ish.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

my boyfriend buys me tickets all the time... and i buy some for him.

as long as the ticket is in the name of the person flying, anyone can pay for it.

Although they will sometimes ask for the credit card of the person who paid as further proof.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

my boyfriend buys me tickets all the time... and i buy some for him.

as long as the ticket is in the name of the person flying, anyone can pay for it.

Ok thanks. My dim impression from this June was I had to present ID to buy my tickets - but maybe that's coz I was buying them here in Aus? Dunno.

 

[thirteen]

Although they will sometimes ask for the credit card of the person who paid as further proof.

haven't had that happen. especially nowadays, when you can check-in and print out the boarding pass at home.

 

[hrotha]

Moncoutie? Or Sastre ( who not too many believe he was clean)

Why would you get to see his profile?

Were you trying to hire either?

Maybe he got to see the profiles of Cervélo riders during the merger, to help decide which ones he was going to take. But I think that Sastre signed with Geox before the merger was official, and he supposedly didn't know anything about it. I don't think his blood profile could be shared without his consent.

Maybe it's someone from Garmin? Hushovd?

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

haven't had that happen. especially nowadays, when you can check-in and print out the boarding pass at home.

If your flight is starting from certain states to certain states you are not allowed to print out your boarding pass online. You can check in, but you have to go in person to the desk to be verified.

 

[sniper]

Yes, the only person who he doesn't want involved in cycling is Ricco. Who is i) out of the sport and ii) other than Rasmussen, about the easiest target in cycling.

He is very reluctant to break omerta about currently active members of the peloton and that is frustrating for people, because what they see with their eyes when they see Dertie Cont, Piti and Froome riding up mountains as if on motorbikes does not square with what JV is telling us. By refusing to confirm what is 'obvious' to many, he appears to be 'maintaining omerta' and his comments about clean cycling appear to be blatantly unsustainable and untrue.

You can not claim it is hot sunny in the middle of a blizzard, which is what JV appears to be doing.

It is very easy to condemn Armstrong, Ricco, Rasmussen, JJ even the UCI.

However, the reality is that JV has to work with Riis, Dertie Cont, Movistar, Ekimov, Katusha, Sky, Froome etc so he's not going to call out anyone that he might 'need' at a later date.

Thus it appears that JV is playing a double or treble game. On the one hand preaching clean racing to the public, but at the same time, refusing to discuss or condemn the current peloton.

I have a simple question for JV - can you tell me in your opinion the 3 biggest obstacles or barriers to a clean peloton - ie the Spanish riders/authorities, inability to exclude dopers from the sport, entrenched attitudes towards doping among some teams/riders socialising junior riders, weak and incompetent cycling media, etc etc

of course, all very true. I see the conflict of interests and how he's prevented from talking about certain colleagues.

Fact remains that JV has ranted on here for no reason when confronted with difficult questions regarding his clean cycling theme. Fact also remains that he has made up his mind (viz. says he knows for sure) that Wiggo 2009 and Hesjedal 2012 were clean. He can't know, so that again smells like PR. Compare also David Millar, he's critical of UCI, yet he affirms that Wiggo is such a nice clean winner of the TdF.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Maybe he got to see the profiles of Cervélo riders during the merger, to help decide which ones he was going to take. But I think that Sastre signed with Geox before the merger was official, and he supposedly didn't know anything about it. I don't think his blood profile could be shared without his consent.

Maybe it's someone from Garmin? Hushovd?

The one rider this forum "constantly" refers to as clean and that didn't retire ages ago is Moncoutie.

JV is no fan of Hushovd AFAIK, but does this forum CONSTANTLY talk about how clean he is? It's been mentioned by some that he is clean, but it isn't talked about all that much.

 

[GreggGermer]

I was teammates with Ramunsas back in 2007 on a small Belgian-Lithuanian team. I ended up racing with him and most of the other Lithuanians at the bigger UCI races (the team ended up getting very cliquy after a month or so).

During my time I learned that he (and the other Lithuanians) trained hard and would do things like ride several races in a row as if they were in a stage race. He was always a friendly guy and I never once saw anything dodgy from him when we meet. People saw talent in him even before 2007 as he was part of the UCI development center performance program.

So more than 5 years for a talented rider to break into the World Tour is not some super jump in development in my opinion. Some of you only see a name you never knew pop up on a big team, others of us know the long and winding path that rider had to travel to the Pro Tour, it's never direct and is often filled with crappy teams that do little to allow talent to thrive to its full potential.

To me, he is a younger version of Jen Voight ... he can just push himself and suffer.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I was teammates with Ramunsas back in 2007 on a small Belgian-Lithuanian team. I ended up racing with him and most of the other Lithuanians at the bigger UCI races (the team ended up getting very cliquy after a month or so).

During my time I learned that he (and the other Lithuanians) trained hard and would do things like ride several races in a row as if they were in a stage race. He was always a friendly guy and I never once saw anything dodgy from him when we meet. People saw talent in him even before 2007 as he was part of the UCI development center performance program.

So more than 5 years for a talented rider to break into the World Tour is not some super jump in development in my opinion. Some of you only see a name you never knew pop up on a big team, others of us know the long and winding path that rider had to travel to the Pro Tour, it's never direct and is often filled with crappy teams that do little to allow talent to thrive to its full potential.

To me, he is a younger version of Jen Voight ... he can just push himself and suffer.

Thanks for the input - much appreciated.

Were you aware of the doping accusations leveled at Ramunsas in the time period JV mentions (2010 I believe)? Do you have any idea of what their foundation was?

 

[hrotha]

The one rider this forum "constantly" refers to as clean and that didn't retire ages ago is Moncoutie.

JV is no fan of Hushovd AFAIK, but does this forum CONSTANTLY talk about how clean he is? It's been mentioned by some that he is clean, but it isn't talked about all that much.

I know, only the Norwegians and a few others single out Hushovd as most definitely clean. And those who defend Sastre do it only in relation to the singling out of Evans as a clean winner, not because they think Sastre was clean. The problem with Moncoutié is, when did JV have access to his blood profile?

Perhaps he intended to sign him at some point. Maybe so that Le Mevel wouldn't feel lonely. Dunno.

 

[Benotti69]

I think it is Moncoutie because even Bennoti thinks he is clean


ish.

poco'ish.

 

[hrotha]

I'd like to point out we didn't bring up Navardauskas. JV did, as an example of someone who was so successful in the u23 ranks people assumed he had to be doped. As JV said, testing in u23 and Conti races is not as strict, and you often get BS performances, which is why, in the last decade or so, some pro teams resorted to only signing riders from their feeder teams, as a way to know they weren't buying adulterated goods.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I know, only the Norwegians and a few others single out Hushovd as most definitely clean. And those who defend Sastre do it only in relation to the singling out of Evans as a clean winner, not because they think Sastre was clean. The problem with Moncoutié is, when did JV have access to his blood profile?

Perhaps he intended to sign him at some point. Maybe so that Le Mevel wouldn't feel lonely. Dunno.

+ ten characters.

 

[goggalor]

Question: How can you say on your twitter bio you've dedicated your life to anti-doping when you doped for most of your professional career, even when riding for Crédit Agricole, a team that had many clean riders and apparently a bit of an anti-doping culture (and where you likely stole Tour spots from clean riders)?

Even Lance updated his twitter bio when USADA revealed his lies to the public and the UCI took away his wins.

 

[Benotti69]

Have any of these repentant dopers given back the money they won?

 

[GJB123]

Fact remains that JV has ranted on here for no reason when confronted with difficult questions regarding his clean cycling theme.

No reason? Really?

 

[Benotti69]

No reason? Really?

We are talking about cycling, a dirty sport! So why would JV have reason to get angry about difficlut questions.

He has not been part of the solution yet in my opinion.

I think when JV becomes part of the solution the current UCI will be trying to bury him.

 

[GreggGermer]

Thanks for the input - much appreciated.

Were you aware of the doping accusations leveled at Ramunsas in the time period JV mentions (2010 I believe)? Do you have any idea of what their foundation was?

I am not aware of the doping allegations. Since 2007 I've only seen Ramunsas off and on at the start or finish of an odd pro race (recently I saw him at the Giro before a stage).

I'm not sure of the foundation, but I know his training style was very eastern-bloc-esque, as in, two or three workouts a day, lots of hours. Not sure of the intensity, but they trained together a whole lot.

I won't vouch for Ramusas's being clean (or ANY other rider) as I can't. Same way I can't say people on this forum aren't certifiably crazy, I just don't know them well enough

I've had people call me a doper back in the day on a forum(s) ... all for going 42nd at Scheldeprijs. Hell, I've had my own team mates ask other team mates what I was on after a good performance, but the whole time I was clean. I guess it's the curse of cycling, the mentality that performance=doping, but it leads to a level of paranoia that makes me think back to the 60's paranoia of everyone being a "communist".

I'm not naïve to the ways of cycling, but I'm much more of the "Trust buy Verify" mentality.

This whole discussion goes the fundamental problem cycling is facing, Trust ... trust that has been broken by numerous riders, numerous teams and the UCI ... I believe cycling is cleaner, I also believe there are still dopers, but we can't just paint all guys with the same brush.

If there are suspicions about Ramunsas it seems JV has done his homework to put them to rest. I personally don't like the fact a former doper is running a "clean" team based off largely off his experiences and accomplishments that came about from doping. Then again, many security firms hire ex-cons to help run their business's because they know the system from the other side, so I do see the value of someone with JV's experiences.

I've pretty much summed up most of my opinions about doping in these two articles I penned:

http://www.podiuminsight.com/2012/09/06/gregg-germer-why-i-didnt-dope/

and

http://www.thechainstay.com/blog/2012/10/breaking-point-lets-fix-cycling/

 

[irongrl]

http://www.podiuminsight.com/2012/09/06/gregg-germer-why-i-didnt-dope/

and

http://www.thechainstay.com/blog/2012/10/breaking-point-lets-fix-cycling/

Gregg,

I enjoyed reading your story-thanks for sharing it!

 

[maltiv]

Maybe he got to see the profiles of Cervélo riders during the merger, to help decide which ones he was going to take. But I think that Sastre signed with Geox before the merger was official, and he supposedly didn't know anything about it. I don't think his blood profile could be shared without his consent.

Maybe it's someone from Garmin? Hushovd?

Can't be Hushovd, he says the rider was performing sub-par at the time, which doesn't sound like Hushovd either before he joined Garmin (when he became WC) or in his year at Garmin. He's also not constantly referred to as clean in the clinic at least.

Must be Moncoutie really, I guess JV saw his profile because he thought of signing him? And his point isn't that said rider was doped, but that blood levels can vary even (or particularly) for clean riders, if he for example were dehydrated during the test. Also, clean riders don't manipulate their blood, so perhaps their numbers to some degree can have more variance than that of a doped rider on a great program...