JV talks, sort of

[theyoungest]

Was linked with Humanplasma although i dont know what came of that

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/2...stioned-about-HumanPlasma-doping-scandal.aspx

Nothing came of it, AFAIK. But Matschiner more or less indicated earlier this year in the Volkskrant that one Dutch Rabobank rider was involved. The paper automatically assumed it was Boogerd, for some reason. So this is interesting new information.

 

[mikkemus23]

6 hours of hard racing would induce hypoxia, which would increase EPO production.... Guess what happens when EPO production is increased? More retics. And actually, I was originally referring to hypoxia from the day before and the TT. What you don't get is that it's not marketing spiel, it's that I do not know. I know that his retic count is very stable and a small increase from morning to afternoon is nothing unusual. That's why I've asked you to go test yourself.

I don't tell my team not to dope. I spend over $500,000 annually to make sure they don't. I set up a truth and reward policy to make sure there is clarity as to what is going on AND I allow any journalist any access they desire.

In addition Ive worked actively with WADA and USADA since 2004 to help improve their testing methods and execution and volunteered my team to try new testing methods.

The 1000 calorie thing is a genuine screw up. I went to Bermuda to go fishing, as I've done for many years. I did Tedx as a favor for my friend and I prepared a slide show. The 1000 calorie thing was just me doing the 15 watts over 6 hours math in my head wrong. I'm admitting I did it wrong. Is there something else?

there is no bump in Ryder's Hb. It falls as the 3 weeks progress. Is it linear? No. I have never witnessed a perfectly linear fall in Hb over 3 weeks. Ever.
Millar shows no plasma increase. the decrease in his performance is the best evidence of his failure to adapt to the stresses. I don't make these judgements in a test tube. they are made in context, judging performance and blood values.

What you're failing to see, is that this is not an area of science that has been exhaustively researched. It is, as Aschenden will tell you, more art than science. It's recognizing patterns from experience.

the statistically worst blood profile I have ever seen was from a rider that this forum constantly refers to as "clean"... Did he dope at the time of his profile blip? No, I doubt it, as his performance was sub par, not suspiciously over par. Context.

End of the day, I cannot convince you. So, I need to give up. There is nothing I can say, show or do that will alter your opinion. Since this is true, can we just not debate and come to the conclusion that our opinions will never be the same?

What you fundamentally underestimate is my earning power outside the world of cycling. It's not marketing spiel because I don't care enough about my position in cycling to be compromised by that crap. When I was a rider, yes, I allowed it to compromise me. That was a BIG mistake. But as one of my closest friends said to me "The biggest financial mistake you ever made in your life was being involved with cycling, as a rider or a manager"

evidence of me not caring? please see my quotes re UCI, re USADA, and actions over the last year. Not the actions of someone covering their ****. Maybe the actions of someone trying to get booted out of the sport!!

That is my best and final argument.

JV

Great post

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Mr. Vaughters what do you have against Mr. Ashenden? I think you seem a little condescending towards him.

 

["Jeff"]

That's really Jonathan Vaughters posting here ? Gotta give the man credit for that, when do you see that ?

I just read this topic. Whether you agree with him or not, I dont understand how some of internet hooligans act against him. Some probably never have ridden a bike. Surprised that man (JV) is still posting here.

Now I dont want to sound like JV's fanboy, so I have to say he was a pretty limited rider. Sorry Jon.

Still major props for coming here and if you see Jeff Bernard in next year's TDF, send him my regards from Holland.

 

[fat_boy_fat]

Appreciation for JV still participating in the discussion, although the level for convincing critics (who I appreciate big time too!) is high around here – for a reason.

Just compare his style when confronted with aggressive questions to that Jens showed in the German TV piece of 14 Oct somebody shared here. Speaks for itself.

 

[hrotha]

Some probably never have ridden a bike.

I hate it when someone uses this argument. It reeks of elitism.

 

[sniper]

Appreciation for JV still participating in the discussion, although the level for convincing critics (who I appreciate big time too!) is high around here – for a reason.

Just compare his style when confronted with aggressive questions to that Jens showed in the German TV piece of 14 Oct somebody shared here. Speaks for itself.

in what way?
JV has ranted on here on multiple occasions when there was no apparent reason other than some posters asking him difficult questions. Most of his rants have subsequently been deleted by mods. They were the type of rants for which most posters get banned, but not JV.
JV continues to ignore and/or evade the most straightforward questions, like why he was planning business deals with Bruyneel/Phat, why he wanted to hire Contador, what the hell happened to Trent Lowe, how a clean Wiggo is/was able to beat professionally doped climbers in 2009 and 2012, why he continues to preach about how clean cycling is, marginal gains, etc.
Not a word on Contador's plasticizers, instead JV "doesn't know" whether Contador uses PEDs. Same for Sky, he prefers to ignore the issue, cuz it doesn't suit his agenda of clean cycling.

Instead, JV cherrypicks his topics, typically the ones where a lot of data and psychology is involved, where there is lots of room for arbitrary interpretation and data bending.

He's hijacking the anti-doping theme together with David Millar. At the same time they continue to sell Sky as the clean example.
JV being on here is merely a part of the clean PR strategy. Why is he using his real name on here again?
Cancer shield meets "I'm engaging in doping forums"-shield.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Here's a story about Ramunas Navardauskas:

So, this kid was winning everything in the u23 ranks in france. So, what happens? everyone says he's doping. I decide to find out for myself.

So, I tell him that at some point I'm going to need to see him in girona, to chat, but I don't know when. I wait until he wins a fairly big race, send him a plane ticket and say "you need to be here tomorrow to talk"...

He arrives. Immediately off the plane we give him a blood and urine test. Then wait 4 hours, have lunch, chat, etc.... Then do a very extensive and long power test which focuses on lactate metabolism over vo2 max. Then another blood/urine test.

Results? Consistent 40% hematocrit, no traces of anything in urine. Power test reached 6w/kg. won a race the day before.... triangulation of physiological testing, hematological testing, and same time frame as race result would lead one to the conclusion that the guy was just really talented.

That's how you weed out BS performers in the conti/u23 ranks.

Did you take his Hgb and retics when doing the blood tests?

Did you notice a similar increase in retics pre/post power test to Ryder's pre/post retics for final Giro TT?

Do you find it strange that someone with 40% Hct (~13.5 g/dL Hgb) is winning key U23 races? Avg Hgb in BP for 2011 is 14.6-15 (44-45% Hct). 40% would put him in the lower 7% of all 2011 BP samples.

Do you think testing someone immediately off a plane is wise given the air conditioned (dehydrating, Hct increasing) nature of the plane environment?

Given this was 2010 and he was riding for an amateur team - not even a Conti team - when he won the race in question, do you think the fact that that team would not have been in the BP could be advantageous on the off-chance someone wanted to dope?

Ramunas spent 2008 with a Kazakhstan team - what are your overall impressions of Kazakhstan teams and attitudes towards doping?

Given Ramunas had won a very prestigeous race the day before, I am curious why you tested him for EPO, given he would have been tested the day before as the winner of the race?

You do not mention the exact protocol, but I am curious if you followed the WADA guideline of 2 hrs recovery before the second blood test? If not, do you find it strange that a dehydrated rider's Hct did not increase at all?

Why the second urine test after the power test? What would you be looking for (understand if it's a trade secret and you do not wish to disclose) given you spent the day with him?

Hypothetically speaking, what would you expect to see if he had been doping?

[Redacted to focus on the doping testing.]

Would a more comprehensive testing protocol - for instance, having him stay for the week and testing him at the end of the week, keeping a close eye on him during that time and seeing if his hematological parameters act normal, have been more reliable?

[Redacted to focus on the doping testing.]

What's Ramunas' Hct / Hgb / retic sitting at now, compared to that test in 2010?

 

[hrotha]

Cancer shield meets "I'm engaging in doping forums"-shield.

That's stupid. Cancer wasn't a shield because it was a random extracurricular, but because it's an emotionally charged thing. Posting in a message board? Nope, not the same.

I always find it funny how you go by the username "sniper" when you're more of a "sprayer".

 

[rata de sentina]

End of the day, I cannot convince you. So, I need to give up. There is nothing I can say, show or do that will alter your opinion. Since this is true, can we just not debate and come to the conclusion that our opinions will never be the same?

JV

At the end of the day I would hope that you're not posting on this forum with the intent of convincing those like Dear Wiggo, MJM, sniper or others of their ilk who are so fervent in their cynicism that it borders on religious mania. You may note that even other healthily cynical members of this forum don't generally bother to engage them apart from gluttons for punishment like krebs or Dr Maserati. There's a spectrum and in some cases no amount of rational argument will work. Sometimes it just takes a while to work out: cripes I'm wasting my time here!

 

["Jeff"]

I hate it when someone uses this argument. It reeks of elitism.

Only for those who feel offended, probably you.

 

[hrotha]

Only for those who feel offended, probably you.

No, I ride a bike, but I don't see how that makes me more qualified to talk about racing and doping at the top level. It's simply a stupid argument.

 

[rata de sentina]

Mr. Vaughters what do you have against Mr. Ashenden? I think you seem a little condescending towards him.

Really? I don't agree with your interpretation of this post. This seems to be a consistent issue.

 

[fat_boy_fat]

sniper, I get your point and I noticed, that he is avoiding certain questions.

But having the choice between a team manager ignoring the public and one entering a discussion I’d always prefer the latter one.

The comparison with Jens shows the difference between one who is confronting the critics and another guy, who is putting his head in the sand as long as possible and, when questioned directly, explodes instead of giving constructive answers.

I don’t see Millar and JV in the same corner. Millar is just looking for sunshine and roses, JV seeks credibility in weathering storms.

 

[sniper]

That's stupid. Cancer wasn't a shield because it was a random extracurricular, but because it's an emotionally charged thing. Posting in a message board? Nope, not the same.

I always find it funny how you go by the username "sniper" when you're more of a "sprayer".

ok, forgot the
of course it's not the same.
but when i confronted JV with my view that his talk about clean cycling ("truce") is inconsistent with the facts and thus that it resembles PR, he didn't address the issues at hand (e.g. Contador2008/9/10, Armstrogn 2009/10, etc.), but instead attacks the messenger (me in this case) saying I don't know **** about PR, because "the best PR is to stay away from this forum". In the meantime he's never (re-)addressed Contador Armstrong Bruyneel Riis etc., and how those names are fully inconsistent with his claim that cycling got so much cleaner after 2008. IMO he's using his being on here under his real name as a deflection away from difficult questions.
He refuses to address the nasty issues but continues to gratuitely speak of clean cycling and truces, etc.

But JV is a charming man, I won't blame anybody for falling for him.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Really? I don't agree with your interpretation of this post. This seems to be a consistent issue.

Yes, really. Thats what i feel i am not saying i am right but mr vaughters always says stuff like " your hero ashenden" blah blah

Edit: Not in that post.

 

[rata de sentina]

No, I ride a bike, but I don't see how that makes me more qualified to talk about racing and doping at the top level. It's simply a stupid argument.

Reminds me of that other favourite exhortation of the past to just "go out and ride" instead of having the temerity to question LA.

 

[rata de sentina]

But JV is a charming man, I won't blame anybody for falling for him.

This is a typically weak argument to resort to characterising those who don't agree with you as credulous dupes. Maybe you should change your nick to bludgeon or something similar. Kindly stick the facts and keep the hyperbole out of it.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Did you take his Hgb and retics when doing the blood tests?

Did you notice a similar increase in retics pre/post power test to Ryder's pre/post retics for final Giro TT?

Do you find it strange that someone with 40% Hct (~13.5 g/dL Hgb) is winning key U23 races? Avg Hgb in BP for 2011 is 14.6-15 (44-45% Hct). 40% would put him in the lower 7% of all 2011 BP samples.

Do you think testing someone immediately off a plane is wise given the air conditioned (dehydrating, Hct increasing) nature of the plane environment?

Given this was 2010 and he was riding for an amateur team - not even a Conti team - when he won the race in question, do you think the fact that that team would not have been in the BP could be advantageous on the off-chance someone wanted to dope?

Ramunas spent 2008 with a Kazakhstan team - what are your overall impressions of Kazakhstan teams and attitudes towards doping?

Given Ramunas had won a very prestigeous race the day before, I am curious why you tested him for EPO, given he would have been tested the day before as the winner of the race?

You do not mention the exact protocol, but I am curious if you followed the WADA guideline of 2 hrs recovery before the second blood test? If not, do you find it strange that a dehydrated rider's Hct did not increase at all?

Why the second urine test after the power test? What would you be looking for (understand if it's a trade secret and you do not wish to disclose) given you spent the day with him?

Hypothetically speaking, what would you expect to see if he had been doping?

Purely from a curiosity POV, how do you "send someone a plane ticket"?

Would a more comprehensive testing protocol - for instance, having him stay for the week and testing him at the end of the week, keeping a close eye on him during that time and seeing if his hematological parameters act normal, have been more reliable?

The race started at 12:15 and ended around 4:30. When did you find out he had won, and how?

What's Ramunas' Hct / Hgb / retic sitting at now, compared to that test in 2010?

Email you know e-ticket thing.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

the statistically worst blood profile I have ever seen was from a rider that this forum constantly refers to as "clean"... Did he dope at the time of his profile blip? No, I doubt it, as his performance was sub par, not suspiciously over par. Context.

Are you implying that you think this rider is/was (otherwise) dirty? The way you phrased it is interesting.

 

["Jeff"]

No, I ride a bike, but I don't see how that makes me more qualified to talk about racing and doping at the top level. It's simply a stupid argument.

Not sure what your problem is but you are massivily quoting me out of context. There's so much to talk about in cycling. Just like so many things have been discussed in this topic.

To give an example. The biggest Dutch cycling announcer has such a fat *** that he couldnt even ride a bike. That dude has been telling me how it works for years. Yeah I think I'm more qualified to talk about certain things. If you think otherwise than that's your problem.

Edit; and he's wrong about so many other facts (results etc) as well. He cant even get that right.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Email you know e-ticket thing.

I know what an e-ticket is, thank you.

As far as I am aware, you cannot buy someone else a ticket, otherwise the whole anti-terrorist security thing becomes very easy to circumvent, surely?

I was under the impression you had to present proof of ID to purchase a plane ticket. If that is not the case, great, but I would still like to understand how that happens.

 

[rata de sentina]

You are quoting me out of context.

The biggest Dutch cycling announcer has such a fat *** that he cant even ride a bike. That dude has been telling me how it works for years. Yeah I think I'm more qualified to talk about certain things. If you think otherwise than I feel sorry for you.

Well in the context of this thread if fatso was a haematologist he would be vastly more qualified than any number of blokes who just rode around on bikes. So maybe you shouldn't take your detestation of one cycling announcer and spread it indiscriminately around.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I know what an e-ticket is, thank you.

As far as I am aware, you cannot buy someone else a ticket, otherwise the whole anti-terrorist security thing becomes very easy to circumvent, surely?

I was under the impression you had to present proof of ID to purchase a plane ticket. If that is not the case, great, but I would still like to understand how that happens.

No offense if it sounded snarky

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I just read this topic. Whether you agree with him or not, I dont understand how some of internet hooligans act against him. Some probably never have ridden a bike. Surprised that man (JV) is still posting here.

You mean me? Coz I do ride a bike, except on Mondays.