JV talks, sort of

[sniper]

Overall, I agree - but in acknowledging the point you have done the same as what you accuse JV of doing.

JV has every right to take it personally when some accuse him of being dishonest in relation to Garmin - but again, it is just 3 posters. Should JV be 'angry' at us all - no.
But also while you are absolutely correct and entitles to ask hard questions and remain skeptical - not all the problems in cycling are to do with JV or can even be answered by JV. Can JV solve all cyclings problem - no.

As you say, the anger should be at those who cause him to be mistrusted - that is where the focus should be, otherwise 'we' (JV, fans, riders etc) will be addressing these very issues again.

imo he's being dishonest in relation to clean(er) cycling, sky, contador, etc., as he knows darn well that there is lots of doping still circulating in the peloton, especially in the top ranks, but prefers to ignore that or pretend he doesn't know. Although it is understandable from JV's point of view, it is not honest.

Much of what JV says about Garmin is obviously true, he's the DS ffs.
However, imo he's not being honest when he vouches for Wiggins and Hesjedal. He didn't sleep with them in the run up to the TdF, so it's hard to understand how he can vouch for them.

 

[Sarcastic Wet Trout]

We are talking about cycling, a dirty sport! So why would JV have reason to get angry about difficlut questions.

He has not been part of the solution yet in my opinion.

He's doing more than you.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

imo he's being dishonest in relation to clean(er) cycling, sky, contador, etc., as he knows darn well that there is lots of doping still circulating in the peloton, especially in the top ranks, but prefers to ignore that or pretend he doesn't know. Although it is understandable from JV's point of view, it is not honest.

Much of what JV says about Garmin is obviously true, he's the DS ffs.
However, imo he's not being honest when he vouches for Wiggins and Hesjedal. He didn't sleep with them in the run up to the TdF, so it's hard to understand how he can vouch for them.

Hi Sniper,
Can you briefly articulate exactly how JV would "know" about 'sky, contador, etc...'

 

[sniper]

Hi Sniper,
Can you briefly articulate exactly how JV would "know" about 'sky, contador, etc...'

well I suppose he reads the news, doesn't he?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

well I suppose he reads the news, doesn't he?

You said JV would "know" - you claimed he is dishonest because he "knows" about what Sky & Contador are doing.

Again - how would he "know".

 

[sniper]

You said JV would "know" - you claimed he is dishonest because he "knows" about what Sky & Contador are doing.

Again - how would he "know".

1. contador: clen + plasticizers, all over the news.

2. sky: doubtful, but i personally don't believe JV genuinely believes they are clean, yet that's what he states = dishonest, imo.

3. the peloton at large: padua investigation + several recent positives, all over the news.

 

[Benotti69]

He's doing more than you.

Apparently he is, but I have my doubts.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

1. contador: clen + plasticizers, all over the news.

2. sky: doubtful, but i personally don't believe JV genuinely believes they are clean, yet that's what he states = dishonest, imo.

3. the peloton at large: padua investigation + several recent positives, all over the news.

You said JV is dishonest - not was dishonest.

He has acknowledged Contador (and why he did not sign him)
He has acknowledged about Sky and them hiring Leinders.
He has acknowledged that the it is 'cleaner' - but that some still dope.

So, he is well aware of the above and has answered it.
Please show what he would now "know" and how this is dishonest.

 

[cineteq]

Hi Vaughters,

I don't think I can make it to dinner and try that walleye, but can you have a look at Will Routley? He's no longer with SpiderTech. He's a fellow BCer like Ryder.

"There are a lot of other clean riders out there too, guys that keep it simple: train hard, race hard, and stick to the mantra that you can win clean."

I think he'll be a great addition to Garmin.

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/...st+cheaters+they+criminals/7502237/story.html

 

[pmcg76]

1. contador: clen + plasticizers, all over the news.

2. sky: doubtful, but i personally don't believe JV genuinely believes they are clean, yet that's what he states = dishonest, imo.

3. the peloton at large: padua investigation + several recent positives, all over the news.

You think JV is dishonest because you believe you can read JVs mind. Got it.

 

[mewmewmew13]

He'd have to be #13 in that case...

Right.
Intermittent.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Maybe because since 2009 a certain section of the fans have turned on him? Because in his cofidis days 'fans' barely bothered him, and dopers ****ed his life up.

Whereas in 2012 the dopers aren't ****ing his life up anymore (except the La story), but 'fans' are now bothering him with contant rumours of doping?

Or maybe, just maybe, he's the one doing the ****ing.

2009 - life's pretty good, olympic glow, best ever tour, Lance the superstar is being nice to him, and fans are generally positive - doesn't rant much

2010 - Brad has poor results. Padova investigation starts, in Italy and it turns out lots of pros are still doping, whole teams in fact. Brad: I LOVE LANCE

2011-12 - he does well on the road, the dopers no longer f***ing him over personally, but 'the ****ers' have now turned on him bigstyle, and hound him over doping, making his life difficult - he gets ****ed off and he rants at them - clinic gets panties in a twist

Funny how your post missed out an entire year of believable performances from Brad when not a single thing was said about bone idle lazy w*nkers, and yet Brad had no problem expressing his love for doped to the gills Armstrong.

If you're going to paint a picture, try not to leave gaping holes in it. You look disingenuous.

 

[sniper]

You said JV is dishonest - not was dishonest.

He has acknowledged Contador (and why he did not sign him)
He has acknowledged about Sky and them hiring Leinders.
He has acknowledged that the it is 'cleaner' - but that some still dope.

So, he is well aware of the above and has answered it.
Please show what he would now "know" and how this is dishonest.

I agree with you that he's backtracked on several of those issues, but only after several posters pointed out to him that his fake naivity (e.g. regarding Contador) looked rather foolish.

But he still claims cycling is so much cleaner now. And nobody knows what he means. He also spoke of a "truce" called for by "most others" after 2007. Again, the claims remain unspecified.

As I said, I think he is being dishonest in certain respects.
In other words, I don't know for sure.
If he's dishonest (which i don't know, but which i suspect), it is about a minority of issues (the ones previously mentioned), and he's likely honest about a whole series of other issues that are being discussed here and in which I don't mix in.
I am not predecided about JV.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I agree with you that he's backtracked on several of those issues, but only after several posters pointed out to him that his fake naivity (e.g. regarding Contador) looked rather foolish.

But he still claims cycling is so much cleaner now. And nobody knows what he means. He also spoke of a "truce" called for by "most others" after 2007. Again, the claims remain unspecified.

As I said, I think he is being dishonest in certain respects.
In other words, I don't know for sure.
If he's dishonest (which i don't know, but which i suspect), it is about a minority of issues (the ones previously mentioned), and he's likely honest about a whole series of other issues that are being discussed here and in which I don't mix in.
I am not predecided about JV.

The only person backtracking is you, not JV.

A reminder of what you said.....

imo he's being dishonest in relation to clean(er) cycling, sky, contador, etc., as he knows darn well that there is lots of doping still circulating in the peloton, especially in the top ranks, but prefers to ignore that or pretend he doesn't know. Although it is understandable from JV's point of view, it is not honest.

...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Please call Francesca Rossi for corroborating evidence. I don't have any. I asked her the same question.
.

Corroborating evidence of what?

I asked about corroborating evidence for Ryder's high pre-Giro and Millar's "non-GT" lack of plasma expansion in a GT. Just curious which one it was you asked Rossi about?

 

[martinvickers]

You like evidence, the evidence points to you having an anti-clinic agenda as evidenced by your constant *****ing about the clinic.

You seem to have a lot of trouble with english comprehension because you keep on thinking that people are saying things that they aren't. Which means you are either insane or just not very intelligent.

I have an anti-bull**** agenda. and by extension an anti-bull****ter agenda. Which sucks for you, and your ilk. Where the clinic does Good, i imbrace it - but people like you are a poison in it, rendering what might be a useful forum for sharing information and clamping down on cheats into a laughable w***fest.

As for intelligence...bring your A-Game anytime you like, Mrs.

Seriously, any time. Because, all false modesty aside, if it ever came to it, I'd ****ing eat you.

You do have something of Jesus complex though. I'd suggest you see someone about that before it gets out of control. It won't be long before you have Kony style breakdown at this rate.

And here we have the surrealists entry. Great fun.

I've an anti-doping agenda, always have done and always will.

Frankly, a lie. It's obvious what sort of agenda you have, and it's f*** all to do with clean sport. It's self-obsessed bullsh*t that makes the sport not one vial cleaner.

You have a doping defending agenda.

I want dopers and their enablers in Jail. I want life bans. You just want to get your rocks off.

If it makes you feel good to defend cheats and liars then that's fine with me, it just puts you on a par with Jimmy Savile and Michael Vick defenders.

And this little gem is proof, if ever it were needed, that children's use of the internet should be strictly supervised. Pathetic.

 

[Neworld]

Nope for me it's about the options JV has and whether you can bring yourself to understand his choices given the responsibilities and options he has.

If I really doubted JV's intentions I wouldn't behaving this discussion at all. My problem is that some people in the Clinic don't even doubt his intentions, they seem to quite sure his intentions are crooked and are not open to be convinced otherwise.

Agreed.

I defy someone here to show who rivals JV's steady, justifiably slow (?organized) and fairly transparent approach to reform? Who are those people? Certainly no other DS or owner out there today?

Is JV: Going fast enough for everyone; completely candid; providing unlimited access and answers for everyone? No, but is that even possible?

Think about the *** storm that JV was aware of 3-4 years ago and how he had to dovetail in the devo of a pro-team, provide a 'different' model to cycling, testify under oath, oversee a team, dance with lawyers to protect his team and himself, and then had the left over energy to come in here and try, in his own way, to answer questions.

Its cool, go ahead a grill the guy, he's sounds like he can handle himself. But, guys/gals you have 'access' to a Manager/DS of a pro cycling team...nurture this; don't carve him up too often. He may just listen to one or many of you and that may result in some small influence higher up. Slap him around too much and ... gone. JV may turn out to someone along the spectrum from fantastic to average, or even the 'politician' that cycling needs to turn the diabolical UCI upside down. Personally, I think he is closer to positive change than anyone and for now he has my support.

If the pro ranks were composed of more managers like JV, asking for independent testing, a reformed UCI...think of the healthy competition amoungst them and where we would be today.

Grill Riis, Johan and their ilk. IMHO JV is a positive approach to the 'thin edge of the wedge'.

 

[blackcat]

One thing that I've seen alot of from the more cynical members of the forum (sniper and DW are the two that come to mind immediately) is a critique centred around 'that sounds like PR', which is hard to prove or disprove. But the underlying assumption seems to be that PR and truth are somehow mutually exclusive. I wonder why this assumption is made - I mean, in the example of Garmin and Sky, it makes total sense to me that Millar and Vaughters would proactively say decent things about Sky if they thought it was true. Good PR is focusing on the good that's happening in the sport rather than trying to solve the problems through the public eye.

No. Good PR would be seeding enough truth to be believable. Say you are involved in counter-intelligence, and you know there is a mole, and you know the mole is leaking. You allow him to leak undamaging material. And you then manipulate and tweak things, very minor changes, but enough that everyone buys the story proper, but a crucial details are false. Or crucial details redacted.

 

[huntelk]

Agreed.

I defy someone here to show who rivals JV's steady, justifiably slow (?organized) and fairly transparent approach to reform? Who are those people? Certainly no other DS or owner out there today?

Is JV: Going fast enough for everyone; completely candid; providing unlimited access and answers for everyone? No, but is that even possible?

Think about the *** storm that JV was aware of 3-4 years ago and how he had to dovetail in the devo of a pro-team, provide a 'different' model to cycling, testify under oath, oversee a team, dance with lawyers to protect his team and himself, and then had the left over energy to come in here and try, in his own way, to answer questions.

Its cool, go ahead a grill the guy, he's sounds like he can handle himself. But, guys/gals you have 'access' to a Manager/DS of a pro cycling team...nurture this; don't carve him up too often. He may just listen to one or many of you and that may result in some small influence higher up. Slap him around too much and ... gone. JV may turn out to someone along the spectrum from fantastic to average, or even the 'politician' that cycling needs to turn the diabolical UCI upside down. Personally, I think he is closer to positive change than anyone and for now he has my support.

If the pro ranks were composed of more managers like JV, asking for independent testing, a reformed UCI...think of the healthy competition amoungst them and where we would be today.

Grill Riis, Johan and their ilk. IMHO JV is a positive approach to the 'thin edge of the wedge'.

Well said! I don't see any other DS talking to us. Nor do I see anyone else in his shoes trying to make a difference.

 

[sniper]

Well said! I don't see any other DS talking to us. Nor do I see anyone else in his shoes trying to make a difference.

it's clear by now what strategy garmin has: to hijack and monopolize the fight against doping. it's a brilliant tactic and it is being bought by the press as well as by numerous fans, cycling commentators, etc. Millar and Vaughters are widely seen as present-day's doping fighters. at present, very few question the cleanliness of garmin riders, very few question JV's nobel intentions, very few question Millar's repentance. very well plaid indeed.

 

[armchairclimber]

Martin Vickers +1.

 

[gregod]

... oops, wrong thread...

nevermind

 

[gregod]

question for JV.

any thoughts on the US election?

before clinicians go off on me for asking this question, first consider this: at least one of the candidates and almost all of the pundit class have to be on some kind of dope in order to spew such mind-altering banalities that have little connection with reality. therefore, what better place than the clinic

 

[Scorpius]

JV. What is your opinion in relation to a proposal to introduce an unprecedented anti-doping regulation that would enable the authorities to ban all cyclists for life, from competition, management, or any future employment in any capacity within cycling, for a first time doping offense ?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

No, actually I like Michael quite a bit. We just emailed a bit a few days ago. What I have disdain for is him being used to prove anything and everything on this forum by people who've never spoken to him.

His thoughts are very good and logical. I have much respect for him.

But why do you always say "your hero ashenden"... don't like that people who are hard on you believes him?