JV talks, sort of

[sniper]

The only person backtracking is you, not JV.

10 chars....

 

[Gaul 58]

Hi JV

I'm an innocent abroad in The Clinic and I much appreciated things that several of the serious posters (like Race Radio) submit. Yourself likewise. You make for a good thoughtful read.
I'm a cycling coach. I see any three-week Tour as very unnatural but whenever I put my idea to people they see nothing in it.
Despite that, I'll put the concept to you:

Teams in tours should consist of 12 riders.
Six should ride on alternate days.
The positions of the first three or four (say) should count towards each team's ongoing Tour position.

The result:
1 a day off after each day racing
2 more of a football team approach in that the Tour winner would be Garmin or Saxo or Lampre or whoever.... not just an individual name.
3 with three out of six counting, far less influence from domestiques.
Is this too naive in being a way to curb the need to dope?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Is this too naive in being a way to curb the need to dope?

Yes. Athletes dope for weekend warrior glory. See David Anthony and his EPO positive. Another Italian rider got caught on EPO at the same event.

Interesting format though...

 

[gregod]

Hi JV

I'm an innocent abroad in The Clinic and I much appreciated things that several of the serious posters (like Race Radio) submit. Yourself likewise. You make for a good thoughtful read.
I'm a cycling coach. I see any three-week Tour as very unnatural but whenever I put my idea to people they see nothing in it.
Despite that, I'll put the concept to you:

Teams in tours should consist of 12 riders.
Six should ride on alternate days.
The positions of the first three or four (say) should count towards each team's ongoing Tour position.

The result:
1 a day off after each day racing
2 more of a football team approach in that the Tour winner would be Garmin or Saxo or Lampre or whoever.... not just an individual name.
3 with three out of six counting, far less influence from domestiques.
Is this too naive in being a way to curb the need to dope?

riders don't dope because cycling is hard, they do it to get an edge or achieve parity with the rider next to them.

 

[Fatclimber]

So I just clicked the link above, to a twitter conversation, which I've copy and pasted:

Jonathan Vaughters
‏@Vaughters
@fmk_RoI 1999 dauphine, ventoux stage: VAM 1912, w/kg 6.8.... See why I feel cycling is clean now?

........

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember JV quantifying the advantage of EPO with his own numbers. Race wieght 60-62 kilos, FTP 350 watts without dope, 375 with dope. 375/60=6.25 A ratio of 6.8 would put his threshold ~408. 56'50" was his time. T'ain't addin up. I don't want to go diggin through that other thread again, but will if necessary.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember JV quantifying the advantage of EPO with his own numbers. Race wieght 60-62 kilos, FTP 350 watts without dope, 375 with dope. 375/60=6.25 A ratio of 6.8 would put his threshold ~408. 56'50" was his time. T'ain't addin up. I don't want to go diggin through that other thread again, but will if necessary.

Best I could find on short notice:

JV has stated that in peak form he could hit 360w at FTP at 60-62kg. If we take 60kg that is 6 w/kg. I would guess his VO2 max power would be around 7 w/kg, or around 420 watts at a mass of 60kg. This jives well with a VO2 max of 90 ml/kg/min and assuming he only gets 78w per L of O2 (22.2% efficiency assuming burning 100% glycogen at this point), a fair assumption given his high relative VO2 max.

There was also a post saying EPO only gave you 2% or something.

 

[Fatclimber]

Best I could find on short notice:

Originally Posted by V3R1T4S
JV has stated that in peak form he could hit 360w at FTP at 60-62kg. If we take 60kg that is 6 w/kg. I would guess his VO2 max power would be around 7 w/kg, or around 420 watts at a mass of 60kg. This jives well with a VO2 max of 90 ml/kg/min and assuming he only gets 78w per L of O2 (22.2% efficiency assuming burning 100% glycogen at this point), a fair assumption given his high relative VO2 max.

There was also a post saying EPO only gave you 2% or something.

The bolded isn't suggesting that VO2 power is sustainable for an hour is it?


From page 118 of the other thread from JV:

For me, it didn't make such a huge difference, as my hct% was quite high anyway (47-51% range naturally). roughly, I was around 360 watts at 1 hour power, at sea level, without doping. With EPO, I was around 375 watts at 1 hour power. My weight was pretty consistent in the 60-62kg range.

My biggest problems had to do with glycogen resythesis and protein degradation, not 02 consumption. Otherwise: I didn't recover too well after day 7-8 or so. Maybe that would have been solved with insulin or something, but I didn't try.

And there you go, JV

The only reason I bring this up is because 6.25 w/kilo seems pretty low for the third fastest ascent ever up the Ventoux, especially considering the company and the fact that the numbers don't jive. Also, how much increase did EPO give? 4.2% @375 or 13.3% @408? That's quite a difference.

 

[Bumeington]

Best I could find on short notice:



There was also a post saying EPO only gave you 2% or something.

The 2% thing was in the NY times, he meant 2% in time, over a whole tour de france.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Didn't realise you'd already told the Ramunas story, JV.

You called him anemic - I noted he'd be in the bottom 7% of all BP samples tested in 2011, so we're very much in agreement there.

A little story for you: A kid 2 yrs ago won just about every race you could win in the French u23 ranks. In fact, he won so much, no French pro team was offering him a contract because if you win THAT much you must be doped.

I decided to surpass him out of nowhere, right after he won a big race, with a plane ticket to come down to Girona to be tested. Blood values were anemic, if anything, and hormonal profiles were very normal. Power test was better than 90% of the pro guys on the team at that time. The guy wasn't doped at all, he was just friggin strong, and he just about got left behind, because he "won too much" on the French scene.

his name: Ramunas Navardauskas

Here's a story about Ramunas Navardauskas:

So, this kid was winning everything in the u23 ranks in france. So, what happens? everyone says he's doping. I decide to find out for myself.

So, I tell him that at some point I'm going to need to see him in girona, to chat, but I don't know when. I wait until he wins a fairly big race, send him a plane ticket and say "you need to be here tomorrow to talk"...

He arrives. Immediately off the plane we give him a blood and urine test. Then wait 4 hours, have lunch, chat, etc.... Then do a very extensive and long power test which focuses on lactate metabolism over vo2 max. Then another blood/urine test.

Results? Consistent 40% hematocrit, no traces of anything in urine. Power test reached 6w/kg. won a race the day before.... triangulation of physiological testing, hematological testing, and same time frame as race result would lead one to the conclusion that the guy was just really talented.

That's how you weed out BS performers in the conti/u23 ranks.

Did you take his Hgb and retics when doing the blood tests?

Did you notice a similar increase in retics pre/post power test to Ryder's pre/post retics for final Giro TT?

Do you find it strange that someone with 40% Hct (~13.5 g/dL Hgb) is winning key U23 races (your test says 6W/kg)? Avg Hgb in BP for 2011 is 14.6-15 (44-45% Hct). 40% would put him in the lower 7% of all 2011 BP samples.

Do you think testing someone immediately off a plane is wise given the air conditioned (dehydrating, Hct increasing) nature of the plane environment?

Given this was 2010 and he was riding for an amateur team - not even a Conti team - when he won the race in question, do you think the fact that that team would not have been in the BP could be advantageous on the off-chance someone wanted to dope?

Ramunas spent 2008 with a Kazakhstan team - what are your overall impressions of Kazakhstan teams and attitudes towards doping?

Given Ramunas had won a very prestigeous race the day before, I am curious why you tested him for EPO, given he would have been tested the day before as the winner of the race?

You do not mention the exact protocol, but I am curious if you followed the WADA guideline of 2 hrs recovery before the second blood test? If not, do you find it strange that a dehydrated rider's Hct did not increase at all?

Why the second urine test after the power test? What would you be looking for (understand if it's a trade secret and you do not wish to disclose) given you spent the day with him?

Hypothetically speaking, what would you expect to see if he had been doping?

Would a more comprehensive testing protocol - for instance, having him stay for the week and testing him at the end of the week, keeping a close eye on him during that time and seeing if his hematological parameters act normal, have been more reliable?

What's Ramunas' Hct / Hgb / retic sitting at now, compared to that test in 2010? He rode the Giro and wore pink for a couple of days, so at a guess you have at least one BP value from that period of time.

 

[Argyle_Fan]

I have edited/removed my post as I feel it very ill-informed. I hope that I have not contributed too much to unwelcome 'noise'.

 

[Sarcastic Wet Trout]

@Dear Wiggo - can you tell us your source for this rumour?

- Argyle_Fan

Wiggo didn't say rumour, Wiggo said fact.

Big difference.

 

[autologous]

Wiggo didn't say rumour, Wiggo said fact.

Big difference.

Actually he said

"Fact is, Danielson legend goes"

which sums up DW's MO on this forum. A bunch of meaningless words strung together to give the impression of knowing something, but actually substance-less.

Then ArgyleFan takes the bait, turns DW's garbage post into

"So assuming TD was still on something:"

and onto this foundation of thin air adds a bunch of serious-sounding questions and assumptions, finally pausing long enough to realize that there is nothing under the surface : "@Dear Wiggo - can you tell us your source for this rumour?". Sucker.

DW is an uninformed blowhard, a malignant cancer doing it's best to obliterate the hope of any meaningful discussion here. LauraLyn would be proud.

Thank you JV for continuing to call out DW's garbage.

 

[workingclasshero]

I doubt anyone ever considered the clinic frontline.

It is a palce that discusses information on doping and is an outlet for doping in cycling. The levels and quality of the information vary.

That the Sky threads are full of people who post nowhere else but defending Sky continuosly shows the influence of the clinic.

That Vaughter's comes in here, that Armstrong and his many minions have been and continue to try to obfuscate the information shows that the clinic is influential.

Its influence will end when doping ends.

craziest inserting of an apostrophe ever

 

[taiwan]

Actually he said

"Fact is, Danielson legend goes"

which sums up DW's MO on this forum. A bunch of meaningless words strung together to give the impression of knowing something, but actually substance-less.

Then ArgyleFan takes the bait, turns DW's garbage post into

"So assuming TD was still on something:"

and onto this foundation of thin air adds a bunch of serious-sounding questions and assumptions, finally pausing long enough to realize that there is nothing under the surface : "@Dear Wiggo - can you tell us your source for this rumour?". Sucker.

DW is an uninformed blowhard, a malignant cancer doing it's best to obliterate the hope of any meaningful discussion here. LauraLyn would be proud.

Thank you JV for continuing to call out DW's garbage.

I appreciate Dear Wiggo's posts for the following reasons. a) In July/August there was the poster Krebs Cycle putting out ad hoc rationalisations for Wiggins unlikely performances, in a condescending tone. Noone else went to the trouble of actually picking through his infodumps to challenge his claims. b) Noone else will do the homework necessary to construct new arguments and refreash the content of clinic threads. c) You can count on one hand the posters who are not too starstruck to look at what JV is saying at all critically.

 

[thehog]

craziest inserting of an apostrophe ever

Just crazy inserting of anything!

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Legend - meh if I thought it was a fact I would say, "it is a fact". If I think it's a legend, I will say - legend has it. This is different to a fact.

If you honestly believe you can tell that an U23 rider is clean from 1 test the day after that rider won Liege-Baston-Liege espoir, and that same rider can be anemic (Hct 40% wtf) and put out 6W/kg then you need to take a good hard look at yourself.

Here's the legend, 4th hand now, not a fact, just a legend. A story.

http://www.stevetilford.com/?p=21510&cpage=1#comment-9785

Disclaimer, this story is third hand but it rung true at the time because it was told to me by people on the inside without motivation to fabricate. In 2008, I was having lunch with another domestic rider. At that time Slipstream was a mostly domestic team and my old training partner had several friends on the team (I had recently quit racing).

The story goes like this. My training partner’s friend gives him the play by play of Slipstream’s training camp. The highlight that stood out was Tommy D. He was was just flying at camp, beating guys by minutes up the climbs. He stood out like a sore thumb. The story goes that one night at dinner, JV says that someone on the team has tested positive (on an internal control). That positive rider knows who he is, that everyone knows who he is. That rider has two options, clean up right now or quit. Nobody knew whether or not Tommy D had actually tested positive or if JV was just scaring him into sobriety.

2008 was not exactly a repeat of 2006 when Tommy D proclaimed that he rode 7.0 watts/kg up the climbs at the Vuelta and was stronger than Vino. But then again 2007 wasn’t a standout year either, and that was a year before he got to Slipstream.

If the training camp story is true, it doesn’t seem like JV identified a diamond in the rough. He took on a doper that continued to dope when he was at Slipstream until he was scared into riding clean. Good for Slipstream and JV for running a clean team but it is a different story than JV is telling about how Danielson joined Slipstream as a clean rider.

 

[Tinman]

A bunch of meaningless words strung together to give the impression of knowing something, but actually substance-less.

Time to call you autologous.

I just confirmed your last 10 or so posts. Suspect the 80 or so pre-ceeding it are similar.

You are serially abusive. A good 4/5 of your posts criticize peoples' posts, often playing the man, hardly the ball.

Anywhere off this forum, in public, you'd be reported or taken out the back.

Why are you here? Is being abusive your sport? Why not add something positive? Contribute some thinking perhaps, or some humor. Or some constructive comments. But abusive tone we can do without. If you don't agree with a post, call it on the fact, not the man. Or just ignore. Thanks.

 

[Argyle_Fan]

I have removed my post as I think it was very ill-informed. I am sorry to have contributed to any noise.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Hmmm. 4th-hand via 'Mark' in a comment to Steve Tilford's blog. A highly reliable source, I am sure. Seems that 'Mark's' old training partner had several friends on the team.

The whole page is worth reading - I chose one comment out of the lot.

And JV invented the passport - or the closest thing to it - with ACE. They were going on about it on tourdefrancefacts.com - Joe Lindsey is in love with JV and writes glowing pieces every time. Which is why I was so curious as to the reason JV sent Ryder's blood values to Captaintbag instead of Joe again. Plausible deniability? Who knows.

If you can show a "clean" passport - JV gives you a pass. Doesn't matter how you get it.

Keep in mind - this was internal team testing where TD allegedly tested positive. Not biological passport. JV is spending $500k doing internal team testing. Nothing to do with the passport.

 

[Argyle_Fan]

I have removed this post as I think it very ill-informed. I am sorry to have contributed to any noise.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I'd encourage you to stick those questions in a new thread.

 

[PremiereEtape]

Changing the subject temporarily:

...

* Does it change the body type best suited for contesting the climbs? E.g. light Columbian climbers were beaten by Ullrich/Indurain etc. Could Ullrich have won the Tour if everyone were clean (would still have rocked the TTs)?
..
- Argyle_Fan

I think this point in particular is really interesting, and something I find myself asking and not really sure if its doping specific. I think it comes down to two points more so than the doping :-

1. Race design
2. Style of the rider

If you note with the people you mentioned, Ullrich, Indurain and if I throw another name in the hat, Wiggins, you'll see that they werent really renowned for their punchy accelerations, but instead churned big gears and knew a constant pace would break most of their competitors. For this tactic to work, you need some strong teammates to stay with you.

The alternatives are guys like Robert Millar, Pantani or dare I say it some aspects of Armstrongs riding, where they were capable of punchy attacks that would put those in group A(Indurain, etc) in some difficulty, because when you're moving a constant big gear, you need to ride tempo and the climbers stop you doing it.

This is where the design of the race comes in, because heavy time trials and long alps / giro-type climbs suit the big gear guys, and the steeper and shorter pyraneean climbs I would think aid the climbers. Of course, Pantani proves me completely wrong on this point, but Robert Millar aids it!

I think Ullrich, Contador, Armstrong and the rest would always be great racers (though I doubt armstrong could have been the GC rider he was) , and that is what is so sad with this whole doping thing. They could have been great anyway, but instead they have to destroy their reputations needlessly through doping.

 

[PremiereEtape]

I'd encourage you to stick those questions in a new thread.

LOL probably goes for my response as well. Apologies!

 

[AcademyCC]

I'd encourage you to stick those questions in a new thread.

Absolutely. Would love to hear peoples opinions on that.

 

[Argyle_Fan]

I have remeved my post as I feel that I have been contributing too much to ill-informed comments with my comments. I am sorry that I have contributed to any noise.