JV talks, sort of

[Mishrak]

You're only dealing with two of the biggest sycophants in the history of sport in Hein McDruggy and Fat McQuaid. They're not gonna go down easily and the omerta culture is only just now finally starting to crack apart. I don't think it will take another 5 years to fix at this rate, let alone another 20 years, but you guys trolling JV like you're some badasses won't speed things up. It's pretty *** to watch tbh.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

JV, you have talked a lot about changing the sport and the way it is run. But at the moment all we are seeing are feeble organisations which have undermined their own authority and intentions such as the MPCC and CCN. These organisations may have noble intentions but they don't seem to be going anywhere and certainly not in the right trajectory which cycling needs and you have suggested. So what or whom do you think can be the catalyst for changing the sport, because it certainly ain't going to be the UCI and the fans still remain powerless?

You want us to have power in running cycling?

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Mr. Vaughters,

I've waited more than a day before responding, because I've been trying to sort out how I felt when you wrote that you <paraphrasing> "gave up and wrote off" one of your riders as an excuse for not responding to his emails; which subsequently led to a huge mess.

It's this, and not the issue of doping why I have the opinion that you aren't necessarily the right guy to be leading the reform in our sport. Instead of engaging your employee and confronting the issues, you took a shortcut. You ultimately chose the easy way out and cheated that rider in the process. From the thousand mile view, not knowing you personally, it kind of sounds like the same as what led you to dope.

I have a feeling that you're a great guy with awesome ideas and a drive to clean up the sport. But you're "compromised". You've taken the easy way out and made understandable, but bad decisions. I get an uneasy feeling when you talk about a breakaway league. Possibly with some notorious characters from recent doping past. And it's all being done behind closed doors.

I don't think cycling needs "perfect" people, but I do think that we need un-compromised people of unwavering character to lead the reform in our sport. People like LeMond and Betsy and Walsh and a hundred other cyclists that didn't dope or look the other way when it was convenient. Ever.

I hope you take this as the honest criticism that it is and not a bashing. I wish you and Garmin a fantastic season.

John Swanson

 

[techknowgn]

but my interest in these "dilemmas" comes from having to speak up in my position and putting my job in jeopardy.

One thing I don't appreciate is that people in cycling keep acting like they have some unique position in life that others don't face.

I have never worked for a company where I felt if I pointed out what was going on wrong, Id get fired. Ive worked for a bunch of companies through my career as a contractor or full time employee, and Ive never seen any place that doesnt want their employees to act ethically.

I dont believe for a second most people work for company that puts them in a position daily, as what cycling was in the 90s and early 2000s. Maybe you occasionally have to make the choice to stand up on principle, but If youre working for a place where you have to speak up to a company thats doing wrong on a regular basis, you need to get out of there and report to authorities that regulate the industry.

 

[martinvickers]

JV, you have talked a lot about changing the sport and the way it is run. But at the moment all we are seeing are feeble organisations which have undermined their own authority and intentions such as the MPCC and CCN. These organisations may have noble intentions but they don't seem to be going anywhere and certainly not in the right trajectory which cycling needs and you have suggested. So what or whom do you think can be the catalyst for changing the sport, because it certainly ain't going to be the UCI and the fans still remain powerless?

'Fans' shouldn't run a sport. Among other things, running a sport is bl**dy tedious. And I, on a pretty low amateur level, can vouch for that.

Honesty and integrity is a necessary obligation of any reformed heirarchy; but it's not, on its own, sufficient. Any sports fed also required significant organisational and managerial skill. Running a world sport is not a simple task.

Indeed, Greg LeM recognised this from an early stage; hence his reluctacne to entertain a long term role running the sport - his many skills don't run in that direction.

 

[martinvickers]

I have never worked for a company where I felt if I pointed out what was going on wrong, Id get fired. Ive worked for a bunch of companies through my career as a contractor or full time employee, and Ive never seen any place that doesnt want their employees to act ethically.

I dont believe for a second most people work for company that puts them in a position daily, as what cycling was in the 90s and early 2000s. Maybe you occasionally have to make the choice to stand up on principle, but If youre working for a place where you have to speak up to a company thats doing wrong, you need to get out of there and report to authorities that regulate the industry.

Sorry, but the difficulties faced by whistleblowers all over the world in many industries are legendary and legion. Indeed there have been just such instances uncovered very recently in the NHS in GB, and the Fire Brigade in Northern Ireland - both of which might be exprected, by the nature of the work, to be less prone to beating up on whistleblowers - yet both did, to national scandal.

 

[techknowgn]

Sorry, but the difficulties faced by whistleblowers all over the world in many industries are legendary and legion. Indeed there have been just such instances uncovered very recently in the NHS in GB, and the Fire Brigade in Northern Ireland - both of which might be exprected, by the nature of the work, to be less prone to beating up on whistleblowers - yet both did, to national scandal.

Im not saying it doesnt happen, im saying that the number of people who face these issues in a given industry are small. Most cyclists faced it in the 90s. And I would think a fire brigade is exactly the kind of place that would beat up on whistelblowers.

 

[skippy]

Noticed that JV has been for another visit and the usual , tried to discourage his contributions !
So there are those who inhabit this forum that haver no wish , for more DSor Team Manager , to visit and pass us facts ? Seems that the anonymous prefer their fantasies to fact !

The article JV created , y/day in C/News , does not wish to have people contribute to the discussion . Banality is allowed , but the following , posted 6 times , still remains invisible to other readers ! CENSORSHP ?

Tried entering this comment on the C/News article 6 times , each time " mods " deleted ! EXPLAIN WHY ! Discrimination OR trying to curry favour with UCI ?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/jo...e-armstrong-and-heres-how-we-can-fight-doping

Good to see JV , take the time to add his input to the debate , although why he should have to defend himself from those anonymous parties , with an axe to grind , is disappointing . Perhaps it is the reason for other DS's and Team Managers avoiding , revealing their thoughts about the current morass , in which this Sport is bogged down ?

" Pleased to see JV , " OWNING the PROBLEM "! Amazed to see Roger L. talking through his hat about suing anyone for coping his example ! MPCC , seems to be composed of nothing other than " The ole boys club " , intent on deflecting blame foe their continuing inability to look at themselves in the mirror !

10% of a Team's budget , protecting the Health of the Athletes , is not a heavy price to pay , if it encourages more Sponsorship ! Separating " Doping Control from UCI , has been called on for some time ! Why does the " Fox get to guard the Chicken shed "?

Currently we have a Sport , where ANY Outsider , thinks ALL Racers are PIED users . Shamateurs can choose to use these products but WE , the Public , have to believe that Sport can be clean , otherwise we can go to the Movies and see better entertainment !

Whilst the aigle tag team duo , are allowed by the UCI Delegates on the Executive Committee , to stay in Office , little will change ! Write your Country Delegate , Display your disgust that they do not ACT , to remove the Stain on their character , that is so apparent to ALL !

The following are NOT ALL squeeky clean , but that is the risk we will have to accept for present :

Mike Plant membership@usacycling.org usa

Attn Hee Wook Cho cycling@sports.or.kr korea

Attn Renato Di Rocco Presdenza@federciclismo.it italy

Artur Lopes geral@uvp-fpc.pt portugal

Mohamed Wagih Azzam Egypt_cycling@hotmail.com egypt

Daniel Baal dbaal.cycling@ymail.com france

Jose Manuel Pelaez panaci@enet,cu cuba

Sheik FaisalBin Humaid Al Qassimi info@uaecf.ae uae

brian cookson info@britishcycling.org.uk uk

david Lappartient presidency@ffc.fr france

Mohamed Jamel Louafi ftc@planet.tn tunisia

igor Makarov cycling@roc.ru russia

Peder Pedersen dcu@dcu-cykling.dk denmark

NOTHING VENTURED , nothing GAINED !

Thanks to JV's admissions , the Sport of Cycling has to ACT !

 

[arjanh]

Noticed that JV has been for another visit and the usual , tried to discourage his contributions !
So there are those who inhabit this forum that haver no wish , for more DSor Team Manager , to visit and pass us facts ? Seems that the anonymous prefer their fantasies to fact !

The article JV created , y/day in C/News , does not wish to have people contribute to the discussion . Banality is allowed , but the following , posted 6 times , still remains invisible to other readers ! CENSORSHP ?

Tried entering this comment on the C/News article 6 times , each time " mods " deleted ! EXPLAIN WHY ! Discrimination OR trying to curry favour with UCI ?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/jo...e-armstrong-and-heres-how-we-can-fight-doping

Good to see JV , take the time to add his input to the debate , although why he should have to defend himself from those anonymous parties , with an axe to grind , is disappointing . Perhaps it is the reason for other DS's and Team Managers avoiding , revealing their thoughts about the current morass , in which this Sport is bogged down ?

" Pleased to see JV , " OWNING the PROBLEM "! Amazed to see Roger L. talking through his hat about suing anyone for coping his example ! MPCC , seems to be composed of nothing other than " The ole boys club " , intent on deflecting blame foe their continuing inability to look at themselves in the mirror !

10% of a Team's budget , protecting the Health of the Athletes , is not a heavy price to pay , if it encourages more Sponsorship ! Separating " Doping Control from UCI , has been called on for some time ! Why does the " Fox get to guard the Chicken shed "?

Currently we have a Sport , where ANY Outsider , thinks ALL Racers are PIED users . Shamateurs can choose to use these products but WE , the Public , have to believe that Sport can be clean , otherwise we can go to the Movies and see better entertainment !

Whilst the aigle tag team duo , are allowed by the UCI Delegates on the Executive Committee , to stay in Office , little will change ! Write your Country Delegate , Display your disgust that they do not ACT , to remove the Stain on their character , that is so apparent to ALL !

The following are NOT ALL squeeky clean , but that is the risk we will have to accept for present :

Mike Plant membership@usacycling.org usa

Attn Hee Wook Cho cycling@sports.or.kr korea

Attn Renato Di Rocco Presdenza@federciclismo.it italy

Artur Lopes geral@uvp-fpc.pt portugal

Mohamed Wagih Azzam Egypt_cycling@hotmail.com egypt

Daniel Baal dbaal.cycling@ymail.com france

Jose Manuel Pelaez panaci@enet,cu cuba

Sheik FaisalBin Humaid Al Qassimi info@uaecf.ae uae

brian cookson info@britishcycling.org.uk uk

david Lappartient presidency@ffc.fr france

Mohamed Jamel Louafi ftc@planet.tn tunisia

igor Makarov cycling@roc.ru russia

Peder Pedersen dcu@dcu-cykling.dk denmark

NOTHING VENTURED , nothing GAINED !

Thanks to JV's admissions , the Sport of Cycling has to ACT !

Why do I get the feeling I've seen this before? (And sorry for not trimming the post, but otherwise it wouldn't make much sense...)

 

[D-Queued]

Sniper, you are misinterpreting me. I'm saying that right now, here and today, things are pretty clean. Why? biopassport, pressure from media, people being scared of being discovered... Lots of reasons. I am by no means saying the system is robust enough to sustain this. It is not. I'm just saying that we happen to be in a bit of a purple patch, on the anti-doping front. It won't last long, unless we reform from the bottom up.

+1

Perhaps the most succinct summary yet. (don't take that the wrong way)

...
And as for Michael Barry's affidavit? Yes, I was profoundly affected. In a lot of negative ways. Why I quit at 29.

...

Sorry, but I was confused by this.

Were you profoundly affected by his affidavit? i.e. as a stand alone experience?

Or, were you profoundly affected by your own experiences with the situation that he described / referenced in his affidavit?

Dave.

 

[Haynzie]

Tried entering this comment on the C/News article 6 times , each time " mods " deleted ! EXPLAIN WHY ! themselves in the mirror !

Reading that whole post felt like somebody had grabbed my head, stuck their c@ck up one of my nostrils and fU@£ed my brain.

Maybe it had the same effect on any hapless mods who happened to be passing by and read it.

just a guess

 

[Haynzie]

It won't last long, unless we reform from the bottom up.

I'd be in favour of top down change, myself.

 

[sniper]

Sniper,....

I'm saying that right now, here and today, things are pretty clean.

This is assuming Sky are clean. What is that assumption based on? (honest question)

reform from the bottom up.

You seem to disagree with CCN on this point. They seem to prefer top down reform, am I right? wrt CCN, I'm curious, what's your view on their views (so to say)? What's your current relationship to CCN?

 

[BroDeal]

I've waited more than a day before responding, because I've been trying to sort out how I felt when you wrote that you <paraphrasing> "gave up and wrote off" one of your riders as an excuse for not responding to his emails; which subsequently led to a huge mess.

It's this, and not the issue of doping why I have the opinion that you aren't necessarily the right guy to be leading the reform in our sport. Instead of engaging your employee and confronting the issues, you took a shortcut. You ultimately chose the easy way out and cheated that rider in the process.

I don't see how you can say the rider was cheated. It was a contract dispute where both sides made mistakes. It did not reach an impasse until Lowe's advisor threatened to use a doctor's visit, one which Lowe asserts nothing happened, as leverage to gain not just the balance of his contract but much more. This stupid move early in negotiations put Slipstream in a position where to accede to Lowe's demands would have looked like a payoff to keep embarrassing information secret.

I have corresponded with this Martin Hardie character and, let me tell you, the guy is a clown. I would not want him representing me in any legal matter. Read the communications he had with Slipstream to see what he considers professional language. Perhaps f-bomb laden mail by legal counsel is standard in dispute handling in Australia, but I have not seen it anywhere else. Hardie messed up. He put the other side in a position where it could not give relief to his client.

It says something that Vaughters chose to make the whole thing public rather than pay to make it go away.

 

[hrotha]

This is assuming Sky are clean. What is that assumption based on? (honest question)

It's not assuming Sky are clean. It's assuming they're either clean or unable to get much of a boost through doping as things stand right now. And it's based on watt numbers. Not that I agree with JV, but he's already said this dozens of times here...

 

[JimmyFingers]

I have never worked for a company where I felt if I pointed out what was going on wrong, Id get fired. Ive worked for a bunch of companies through my career as a contractor or full time employee, and Ive never seen any place that doesnt want their employees to act ethically.

I dont believe for a second most people work for company that puts them in a position daily, as what cycling was in the 90s and early 2000s. Maybe you occasionally have to make the choice to stand up on principle, but If youre working for a place where you have to speak up to a company thats doing wrong on a regular basis, you need to get out of there and report to authorities that regulate the industry.

Really?

I generally find companies want their employees to tell them what they want to here. Criticism and complaining general doesn't help you climb any rungs. They may know something is crap, and you certainly know something is crap, but they don't want you to say it, they want you to say how you make it work, how if offers opportunities, always constructive, always positive.

Maybe I just worked for the wrong companies. I bet they paid a lot more than mine too.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

I don't see how you can say the rider was cheated. It was a contract dispute where both sides made mistakes. It did not reach an impasse until Lowe's advisor threatened to use a doctor's visit, one which Lowe asserts nothing happened, as leverage to gain not just the balance of his contract but much more... <snip>

The man was cheated, because every employee deserves to have their management deal with any issues that may arise. It's an untenable position to ignore a man (even after that man makes an effort to engage) and then dump all over them for making errors and not doing the job the way you wish they would.

The man was cheated out of the opportunity to make rectify mistakes and do a good job.

John Swanson

 

[Taxus4a]

This is assuming Sky are clean. What is that assumption based on? (honest question)

You seem to disagree with CCN on this point. They seem to prefer top down reform, am I right? wrt CCN, I'm curious, what's your view on their views (so to say)? What's your current relationship to CCN?

And why SKy is not clean?
What you know that nobody knows?
I didnt know any team that seem for me more clean ever. Maybe Garmin and french teams,... SKy has very good riders and very good profesionals and very good material, but despite that today Lofkvist had got Mediterranean in other team. If he do with SKy.. ohhh, another rider more winning, not possible.
Maybe you didnt know the potebncial of Froome, of Uran, of Henao, of Wiggins, of Porte, of EBH, of Thomas,... but in this case the problem is yours. Dont blame so easy. I blame my country, Spain, to be so permisive, althought things have changing

I got here just to say to JV: I like a lot his last post in cyclingnews. That is the way, and with that way this disscusion could be have nonsense

 

[BroDeal]

The man was cheated, because every employee deserves to have their management deal with any issues that may arise. It's an untenable position to ignore a man (even after that man makes an effort to engage) and then dump all over them for making errors and not doing the job the way you wish they would.

The man was cheated out of the opportunity to make rectify mistakes and do a good job.

You need to ask yourself what the employee did to create a situation where the employer was so fed up with dealing with the employee that he decided the best course of action was to wait for the clock to run out on the employment contract while wasting as little time as possible dealing with the employee. Since real money was being paid every month, the situation must have been very caustic for the employer to decide to essentially throw that money away.

 

[armchairclimber]

And why SKy is not clean?
What you know that nobody knows?
I didnt know any team that seem for me more clean ever. Maybe Garmin and french teams,... SKy has very good riders and very good profesionals and very good material, but despite that today Lofkvist had got Mediterranean in other team. If he do with SKy.. ohhh, another rider more winning, not possible.
Maybe you didnt know the potebncial of Froome, of Uran, of Henao, of Wiggins, of Porte, of EBH, of Thomas,... but in this case the problem is yours. Dont blame so easy. I blame my country, Spain, to be so permisive, althought things have changing

I got here just to say to JV: I like a lot his last post in cyclingnews. That is the way, and with that way this disscusion could be have nonsense

I agree with what he said.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

You need to ask yourself what the employee did to create a situation where the employer was so fed up with dealing with the employee that he decided the best course of action was to wait for the clock to run out on the employment contract while wasting as little time as possible dealing with the employee. Since real money was being paid every month, the situation must have been very caustic for the employer to decide to essentially throw that money away.

Go watch Office Space for a point of reference. You really think the best way to manage a problem player is to put that person in the basement for several months, stop payment on their monthly cheque and avoid contact? Really? This is who you want to run pro cycling!? Whooo.

I guess JV does get his TPS reports in on time...

John Swanson

 

[Froome19]

'Fans' shouldn't run a sport. Among other things, running a sport is bl**dy tedious. And I, on a pretty low amateur level, can vouch for that.

Honesty and integrity is a necessary obligation of any reformed heirarchy; but it's not, on its own, sufficient. Any sports fed also required significant organisational and managerial skill. Running a world sport is not a simple task.

Indeed, Greg LeM recognised this from an early stage; hence his reluctacne to entertain a long term role running the sport - his many skills don't run in that direction.

I don't personally think that fans should run the sport and I am of the personal opinion that fan involvement in sport doesn't need to be all that vocal. Yet sport does revolve around fans after all and so having fans there as a check is something which is crucial in a sport which is riddled with doping. Yet when the CCN was launched there was a whole commotion because the fans had finally got their representatives. A lot of people want to see fans having a more active voice in cycling and that was what I was reffering to. I personally don't see a reason to if the people doing the job are capable enough themselves, but fans certainly place a check on sport and if fans were more vocal and had more of a say earlier on then maybe cycling would not have got into this pickle in the first place? My point was not that they should run the sport and was not expressing my opinion. Merely I was listing fans as a stakeholder in the sport who are currently not being involved as much as some people would like.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Go watch Office Space for a point of reference. You really think the best way to manage a problem player is to put that person in the basement for several months, stop payment on their monthly cheque and avoid contact? Really? This is who you want to run pro cycling!? Whooo.

I guess JV does get his TPS reports in on time...

BroDeal has an issue with Martin Hardie. So anyone represented by Martin is going to be in the can according to BroDeal. The fact that he repeats JV's reasoning ("imagine how terribly horrible the employee must have been for me to stop emailing him responses") but not the following posts' "Trent is a good guy", recognising the incongruity of the two statements is telling.

 

[BroDeal]

Go watch Office Space for a point of reference. You really think the best way to manage a problem player is to put that person in the basement for several months, stop payment on their monthly cheque and avoid contact? Really? This is who you want to run pro cycling!? Whooo.

I guess JV does get his TPS reports in on time...

I recognize that sh!t happens, mistakes get made, and people learn from them. I also recognize that most situations like this are caused by both parties to the disagreement.

It is telling that JV admits that he made mistakes and would have handled the situation differently while in interviews Lowe uses ridiculous logic to blame everyone but himself. His latest spiteful interview takes the biscuit. He insinuates that because team members doped in years past, they were somehow incapable of giving him a training plan that was suitable for riders who are not doping. The obvious follow-through in that logic is that the rest of the riders, who presumably would have received the same training schedules as Lowe, must be doping. Yet he does not allege that, so it is obvious that he is using baseless doping issues as a means to attack his former team. This is similar to him whinging about seeing Del Moral but at the same time denying that Del Moral did anything to him.

 

[Runitout]

BroDeal has an issue with Martin Hardie. So anyone represented by Martin is going to be in the can according to BroDeal. The fact that he repeats JV's reasoning ("imagine how terribly horrible the employee must have been for me to stop emailing him responses") but not the following posts' "Trent is a good guy", recognising the incongruity of the two statements is telling.

Seems to me Lowe was guilty of the unpardonable sin of getting sick trying to ride a doper's program as a clean athlete. Because his team didn't properly perform the UCI mandated tests, they didn't diagnose chronic fatigue until it was too late.

I know what chronic fatique can do, and how long it takes to recover from. I bet JV does as well.

As soon as they knew he was stuck with a chronic fatigue inury, he wasn't going to be winning any races, so he was kicked to the kerb. Then they wait until his next team falls apart and withhold his last paycheck and bonuses as a bit of petty spite for not 'giving value' under the contract.

This all happens well before Lowe gets Hardie involved. If that's how JV treats employees he says are 'good guys', then god forgive anyone who actually crosses him.