JV talks, sort of

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

If he is compromised, why do it?

Ego, or, wanting to be an ego.

It could be interesting having a DS on this board saying this and that, but, come on, be real.

I am not bothered by Vaughters not telling all, I am bothered by his statements that cycling is cleaning up. People of my age, 40 plus, have seen normal cycling, and that still doesn't look like most of the freaks of nowadays.

 

[Benotti69]

Ego, or, wanting to be an ego.

It could be interesting having a DS on this board saying this and that, but, come on, be real.

I am not bothered by Vaughters not telling all, I am bothered by his statements that cycling is cleaning up. People of my age, 40 plus, have seen normal cycling, and that still doesn't look like most of the freaks of nowadays.

I like that, most of the freaks of nowadays.

For JV the clinic is ego for sure as i said.

 

[BroDeal]

Another take by Tilford.

http://stevetilford.com/?p=21298&cpage=1#comment-9383

 

[mewmewmew13]

Another take by Tilford.

http://stevetilford.com/?p=21298&cpage=1#comment-9383

Hah, cn forums mentioned....
high profile group!

 

[BroDeal]

Hah, cn forums mentioned....
high profile group!

Our power is growing. It is only a matter of time before we rule the world.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Our power is growing. It is only a matter of time before we rule the world.

Do you think it's time we designed some golden robes yet or something??

 

[D-Queued]

Do you think it's time we designed some golden robes yet or something??

I'm sorry for you if you don't believe in Miracles.

No one thinks like us. No one writes like us. This forum is ours. No one's taking it away from us. This f*ing forum is ours!

Dave.

 

[BroDeal]

Do you think it's time we designed some golden robes yet or something??

I am thinking rich blue valour with seventies style lapels and a some kind of crazy hat. Since this is the JV thread, lamb chop sideburns might be necessary.

Anyway, I think I have changed my mind on JV. The Bicycling article was interesting. It is too bad that it was like reading a story with the middle cut out of it. I would still like answers about his dealing with Landis and a lot of other things, but I have a lot more faith in him and his team. I question the long term viability of JV's approach, but if anti-doping can be moved from the UCI to an independent entity, anti-doping funding increases, and for a generation of riders the benefits of doping can be limited to where clean riders can win the biggest events then the culture change and anti-doping framework might work long term. It is problematic if the UCI retains contol

Unfortunately I deleted my JV avatar file.

 

[Mr.38%]

Suggestions for your avatar:

 

[RichWalk]

Anyway, I think I have changed my mind on JV. The Bicycling article was interesting. It is too bad that it was like reading a story with the middle cut out of it. I would still like answers about his dealing with Landis and a lot of other things, but I have a lot more faith in him and his team. I question the long term viability of JV's approach, but if anti-doping can be moved from the UCI to an independent entity, anti-doping funding increases, and for a generation of riders the benefits of doping can be limited to where clean riders can win the biggest events then the culture change and anti-doping framework might work long term. It is problematic if the UCI retains contol

.

Yep, agree with your sentiments here, remove the 'crooks' in charge, remove any ruling body such as the UCI's monoply function(s) have contributory teams/external bodies feeding into whomever takes over.

We talk about cycling needing a top down re-structuring, however without certain cultural changes in society with regard to sport and expectations from its participants I see no change soon. In context most of us live in advanced capitalist societies where its quite evident if financial gain can be achieved by cheating then it will happen...........

Much of what we now hear vis a vis clean cycling is just spin, until thats backed up, as you mention with large scale anti doping investment, zero tolerance to those caught and scientific based set of 'clean rider' comparsions it will remain, at best a 'work in progress' even for those DS's who declare their teams drug free.

 

[sniper]

I am thinking rich blue valour with seventies style lapels and a some kind of crazy hat. Since this is the JV thread, lamb chop sideburns might be necessary.

Anyway, I think I have changed my mind on JV. The Bicycling article was interesting. It is too bad that it was like reading a story with the middle cut out of it. I would still like answers about his dealing with Landis and a lot of other things, but I have a lot more faith in him and his team. I question the long term viability of JV's approach, but if anti-doping can be moved from the UCI to an independent entity, anti-doping funding increases, and for a generation of riders the benefits of doping can be limited to where clean riders can win the biggest events then the culture change and anti-doping framework might work long term. It is problematic if the UCI retains contol

Unfortunately I deleted my JV avatar file.

Hadn't expected you to step over JV's "marginal gains" talk, San Millan/Lim and Millar 2009 that easily. None of this is to say JV isn't a nice guy or that the bicycling article isn't interesting; he is/it is, and JV's definitely more trustworthy than any of the other DSs, but still, these issues were shady and remain shady.

- With the marginal gains talk JV is directly and explicitly supporting Sky, though you and I agree that there is no way Sky is clean.

- As for the San Millan issue, I refer to Fearless GL's post one or two pages back. It can't get much shadier than that and it is a perfect parallel to Sky/Leinders.

- As for Wiggins 2009: JV has now gone on the record (somewhere upthread) stating "I know my team was clean in 2009". How is that anything other than PR talk?

 

[the big ring]

- As for Wiggins 2009: JV has now gone on the record (somewhere upthread) stating "I know my team was clean in 2009". How is that anything other than PR talk?

Pedantically - he said Wiggins did not dope, not the team. I asked multiple times if he could guarantee his TdF team was clean.

The Dr. Leinders thing is disturbing, for sure. Not knowing him, I can't comment on his current attitude towards things. I don't know.

2009? Wiggo did not dope. You can say I'm wrong, but I'll stick with my statement on this, that I've made over and over...

2012 Sky? My opinion (not statement) is that they are not doping, based on VAM, power values, and information we have from Wiggins in 2009. Brad didn't ride much faster in 2012 than 2009, he just was more mentally consistent, the parcours suited him more, and he did not have the same competitors.

I read that last bit as: Brad rode faster in 2012 than 2009 using the power of his mind and the suitability of the course.

 

[Benotti69]

Pedantically - he said Wiggins did not dope, not the team. I asked multiple times if he could guarantee his TdF team was clean.

I read that last bit as: Brad rode faster in 2012 than 2009 using the power of his mind and the suitability of the course.

JV conveniently ignored that Wiggins won everything this year while at 95% peak!

 

[hrotha]

Pedantically - he said Wiggins did not dope, not the team. I asked multiple times if he could guarantee his TdF team was clean.



I read that last bit as: Brad rode faster in 2012 than 2009 using the power of his mind and the suitability of the course.

It's interesting to note that his position on Sky seems to be "they're within humanly possible parameters, therefore a clean rider might do what they did, therefore they're not doping", which to me reads as "well I can't accuse them without proof". He only has first-hand info on Wiggins after all, not Froome, Porte or Rogers.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I read that last bit as: Brad rode faster in 2012 than 2009 using the power of his mind and the suitability of the course.

Slam dunk if you ask me. Faster than the dirttour of 2009...

Wiggins on Garmin was tested at 480 watts, that is in the range of Merckx, higher than Hinault/LeMond. Nothing to see here!

On that note, did'nt other teams test Wiggins and saw his GT proneness? Are they all unprofessional? Talking of Columbia, Cofidis etc etc, they didn't have powertabs on him? Yeah right.

 

[RichWalk]

Slam dunk if you ask me. Faster than the dirttour of 2009...

Wiggins on Garmin was tested at 480 watts, that is in the range of Merckx, higher than Hinault/LeMond. Nothing to see here!

On that note, did'nt other teams test Wiggins and saw his GT proneness? Are they all unprofessional? Talking of Columbia, Cofidis etc etc, they didn't have powertabs on him? Yeah right.

That was during his cigar smoking and wine drinking phase, I may have hired him but then again I'm no DS

 

[Catwhoorg]

You dont believe RaceRadio, ChewbaccaD, or even the link king Dr Maserati?

At least his anonymous information would get confirmed sooner or later which would give weight to his posts. What he does now is show up with nothing to offer, like lots, but because he is JV he is feted for it!

I (obviously) have no idea who the people behind those are.

By actually posting non-anonymously JV brings a credence to what he says much more than those guys can.

The trade off is that he has to be careful with what he says.

 

[hrotha]

I (obviously) have no idea who the people behind those are.

By actually posting non-anonymously JV brings a credence to what he says much more than those guys can.

The trade off is that he has to be careful with what he says.

No one believes RaceRadio just because they happen to like his username. He's earned his credibility. An anonymous DS or rider could do the same.

 

[Catwhoorg]

No one believes RaceRadio just because they happen to like his username. He's earned his credibility. An anonymous DS or rider could do the same.

That is true.

But you have to admit having a known DS discussing these matters has a different weight to it.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

No one believes RaceRadio just because they happen to like his username. He's earned his credibility. An anonymous DS or rider could do the same.

The problem is that many posters do not believe what JV is saying (or at least his sentiments ) and they know who he is. Imagine him trying to get the same points across but anonymously.

Note: I am not saying either way that he should or should not be believed.

 

[hrotha]

That is true.

But you have to admit having a known DS discussing these matters has a different weight to it.

Yes, that's true too. Personally I'd rather he kept posting here openly, not anonymously, but as a full-time forumer.

The problem is that many posters do not believe what JV is saying (or at least his sentiments ) and they know who he is. Imagine him trying to get the same points across but anonymously.

Note: I am not saying either way that he should or should not be believed.

Well, JV has acknowledged there's certain stuff he can't say here (regarding the UCI, for example). It's not a stretch to think bits of what he says here may not be the whole truth. As an anonymous poster, that wouldn't be the case.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Yes, that's true too. Personally I'd rather he kept posting here openly, not anonymously, but as a full-time forumer.

Well, JV has acknowledged there's certain stuff he can't say here (regarding the UCI, for example). It's not a stretch to think bits of what he says here may not be the whole truth. As an anonymous poster, that wouldn't be the case.

Maybe he did try and was banned for being a troll

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Slam dunk if you ask me. Faster than the dirttour of 2009...

Wiggins on Garmin was tested at 480 watts, that is in the range of Merckx, higher than Hinault/LeMond. Nothing to see here!

On that note, did'nt other teams test Wiggins and saw his GT proneness? Are they all unprofessional? Talking of Columbia, Cofidis etc etc, they didn't have powertabs on him? Yeah right.

For 18 minutes.

Ok, so answer the 20 min effort vs 40+ minute effort question, I only have limited information from elite athletes, so this isn't a University study....

That said: CVV can produce about 5.9 watts per kg in peak form for 40+ minute climbs, Wiggo is a bit more at 6.1 w/kg for this length of effort.
From the pre-Tour tests both riders have done up Rocacorba (a 33 minute climb) I know that Wiggo was at 6.1w/kg and CVV was 5.7 w/kg (He was off form a bit in June). However, Wiggo did a local 10 mile TT in GB about 2 weeks before the Tour, or 5 days before the Rocacorba test. He posted a time of 18mins flat (and was disqualified for using a 1080 wheel...funny rules over there). Anyhow, his power was 482 watts, so using his Tour weight of 72 kgs, so 6.7 w/kg. So, anecdotally, there's about a 9% decrease in power when going from a 20 min effort to a 40+ min effort. At 6.7 w/kg you certainly can climb at a VAM of 1750, but at 6.1 you wont even hit 1700 (again, anecdotal based on experience).
The last TT in the Tour Wiggo averaged 434 watts, consistent with his previous tests of 40+ minutes and just about 6.1 w/kg. I dont have any data for Wiggo up climbs in the Tour, as he didnt use a PowerTap.

JV

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

For 18 minutes.

Is it a coincidence he just doesn't seem to have the VAM numbers for the Tour climbs?

Compare those remarks with these:
http://bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

CB: Were you aware of what you could do in terms of average rate of vertical ascent? For instance, Ivan Basso made everyone's eyes bug out when he was ascending at 1800 vertical meters an hour on the Colle San Carlo in the 2006 Giro.

GL: What wattage was he doing? I would look more at wattage because the rate of vertical ascent could vary so much depending on the pavement. Wattage is the ultimate truth. You know I'm very controversial because I think that you have to look at numbers.

My wattage, relative to VO2 Max...a VO2 Max of 92 or 93 in a fully recovered way...I think I was capable of producing 450 to 460 watts. The truth is, even at the Tour de France, my Tour de France climb times up l'Alpe d'Huez yielded a wattage of around 380 and 390. That was the historic norm for Hinault and myself.

Two of the most gifted cyclists of the last 30 years. But hell, it is perfectly normal that some really gifted wonderguys can do the same.

And:

JV It's a little bit like Christian last year in that I am surprised that Bradley finished almost on the podium. I am not surprised – I was thinking that he would be on the outskirts of the top ten. Before the Tour he was doing a couple of power tests just like Christian was the year before – uphill and in a 10 mile time trial that he did up in England, and I knew that the power to weight ratio was right at world class. He was doing 480 watts at 72 kilos for a 20-25 minute time, so I knew that Brad would be one of the most powerful riders in the Tour]Pre Tour.
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/jonathan-vaughters-post-tour-interview

If Chris Horner of all people is putting out 380 watts in 2010 compared to those two quite gifted athletes that raises questions who are not getting answered by 'the peloton is cleaning up, look at the numbers'.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/07/power-from-tourmalet-6wkg-anyone.html

So we are led to believe we have a + - 10% decrease in wattages compared to the Armstrong days, is it then clean or just less dirty when guys like Horner are riding up mountains like he is Bernard Hinault?

 

[Benotti69]

I (obviously) have no idea who the people behind those are.

By actually posting non-anonymously JV brings a credence to what he says much more than those guys can.

The trade off is that he has to be careful with what he says.

RaceRadio to name one has been pretty spot on with his posting.

JV comes in here to chew the fat for a few posts and then leaves after dropping a few hints if those who hang on his posts are lucky.

Dont see the point of that. If JV coming here to post is to give the clinic some legitimacy in the real world, i dont see it having effect.

I'd rather he be a mole from within pro cycling and actually post stuff worth reading.