Kenny Williams

[fatandfast]

This may sound strange but equipment could have something to do with the subject of non pro juicing. IROC was form of car racing were a quality driver was given a car identical to his competitor and allowed small modifications and then race head to head with similar machines. People swallowing tablets for an advantage I think is here to stay. Jr's coming to the start line and noticing his fellow racer has a 3k set of wheels or a 7k rig taking a couple hundred bucks worth of pills may seem logical to some. Coaching Jrs is hard work. Keeping them convinced that you can win on a 1000-1500 dollar bicycle is really hard. Kenny worked with lots of kids and his advice good or bad will now be tossed in the trash after his latest. If you keep pills or needles in your tool box it's only a matter of time before you convince yourself to break the glass for "emergency" only. Yuppies want to know names and doses, Jrs want to believe they can do without it. Kenny you really F'ed up.They should come up with a bike qualification system were Jrs can race one another on bikes that cost no more than 2500 bucks.

 

[Berzin]

Hiring a small, but dedicated firm of anti-doping cycling fans who like Greg could definitely help reverse this. Both by providing press releases, but also links to positive interviews with Greg, and do things like help post factual information setting the record straight on message boards.

Excellent post. I remember when the news of his first remarks about Armstrong's relationship with Dr. Ferarri were publicized.

The amount of abuse heaped upon Lemond was like nothing I've ever seen before. People ranting about his motives (jealousy from a has-been), calling him all types of names and basically saying they would never buy another Lemond frame ever again.

It was page after page of vitriolic bile. The Lance fans totally lost all perspective, and I don't remember anyone at Trek stepping up to his defense, or at the very least calling for a more rational discussion of the controversy. They just let Lemond out to rot.

 

[BroDeal]

Excellent post. I remember when the news of his first remarks about Armstrong's relationship with Dr. Ferarri were publicized.

The amount of abuse heaped upon Lemond was like nothing I've ever seen before. People ranting about his motives (jealousy from a has-been), calling him all types of names and basically saying they would never buy another Lemond frame ever again.

It was page after page of vitriolic bile. The Lance fans totally lost all perspective, and I don't remember anyone at Trek stepping up to his defense, or at the very least calling for a more rational discussion of the controversy. They just let Lemond out to rot.

Of course we now know that Armstrong was paying a PR firm to trash Lemond online. In some cases those bagging on Lemond had ulterior motives. The infamous Hombre/bobke was a member of the Armstrong Foundation and was using his ties to it to promote his private business. In other cases the people were just useful idiots and gullible fools.

We saw a similar but milder thing happen a few years ago when Chris Horner mentioned that he did not have the same advantages that someone like Armstrong did when it came to training and racing. Everything he said was a simple and obvious fact, but some fans reacted as though he had accused Armstrong of molesting children.

As far as Kenny Williams goes, it is just pathetic. A forty-two year old doping to win in Masters. I would draw a parallel between a kid doping in little league but at least the kid might have hopes of eventually becoming a pro. This is more like a middle aged douchebag doping for a touch football league or an ultimate frisbee tournament.

 

[Ripper]

I think it depends where you are. Southern California is notorious. No testing, lots of former pros, "Longevity" doctors that will give anyone over 40 a prescription for HGH and Test. Add in a bunch of rich dudes who are new to the sport and will do anything their "Coach" tells them, want to be like their hero, and you have a toxic mix.

Yup, that mix will definitely lead to some abuse.

It's not just the former pros and the newbies, it's also the ones who are pretty darn good, were never pros, but really want to win, regardless of the means, or really like winning those cash primes.

The funniest thing for me is, he was popped for something that really does nothing to enhance performace.

 

[Oldman]

Yup, that mix will definitely lead to some abuse.

It's not just the former pros and the newbies, it's also the ones who are pretty darn good, were never pros, but really want to win, regardless of the means, or really like winning those cash primes.

The funniest thing for me is, he was popped for something that really does nothing to enhance performace.

Many think that was the tip of a masked iceberg. It's not funny because he was knowledgable enough to know exactly what was going on.
As for his influence on juniors-there is also no evidence any of this behavior was apparent to them. He will find, however, that the local response to his positive(s) will represent a strong dis-insentive to use PEDs. While we have our share of delusional Tools racing here, everyone is pretty supportive of each other. We don't seem to have any of the petty to aggravated rivalries I've seen in SoCal. Hopefully this will work out to reinforce the community support.

 

[Ripper]

[/color]
Many think that was the tip of a masked iceberg. It's not funny because he was knowledgable enough to know exactly what was going on.

I meant funny as in ironic. I understand the concepts behind DHEA being used as a 'bridge' when one uses testosterone. DHEA itself, however, is not really considered ergogenic.

It is also otc and used by many of the older generation (I am one of them) with the to reduce the impacts of aging. So it might be seen as the tip of something, I really think it is one of those questionable 'banned' drugs (kind of like pseudoephedrine). Before I get slammed for condoning drug use, keep in mind I also know that you can likely take small doses of DHEA daily (or perhaps almost daily) without being popped, so this fella was likely taking a fair amount. In other words, I don't think he should not be banned, I just find the specificsof his case to be ... funny.

 

[Oldman]

I meant funny as in ironic. I understand the concepts behind DHEA being used as a 'bridge' when one uses testosterone. DHEA itself, however, is not really considered ergogenic.

It is also otc and used by many of the older generation (I am one of them) with the to reduce the impacts of aging. So it might be seen as the tip of something, I really think it is one of those questionable 'banned' drugs (kind of like pseudoephedrine). Before I get slammed for condoning drug use, keep in mind I also know that you can likely take small doses of DHEA daily (or perhaps almost daily) without being popped, so this fella was likely taking a fair amount. In other words, I don't think he should not be banned, I just find the specificsof his case to be ... funny.

Agreed. And a little tragic.

 

[slcbiker]

Relative to Lemond and Armstrong, he may not accuse Armstrong all that often, but he has done it pretty publicly, so I can certainly see how the general public would get the idea he is obsessed. Specifically I remember the Vegas? press conference where Lemond was in the audience and basically badgered Armstrong.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Relative to Lemond and Armstrong, he may not accuse Armstrong all that often, but he has done it pretty publicly, so I can certainly see how the general public would get the idea he is obsessed. Specifically I remember the Vegas? press conference where Lemond was in the audience and basically badgered Armstrong.

I think you strayed into the wrong thread there buckaroo. Kenny Williams went to a lot of trouble to get caught for doping as a Masters racer, let's give him his minute of fame without bringing Armstrong into it.

 

[Race Radio]

Relative to Lemond and Armstrong, he may not accuse Armstrong all that often, but he has done it pretty publicly, so I can certainly see how the general public would get the idea he is obsessed. Specifically I remember the Vegas? press conference where Lemond was in the audience and basically badgered Armstrong.

Wasn't badgering, not even close.

The press conference was to launch the Catlin testing program (Which turned out to be a lie) Prior to the press conference LeMond asked if he could attend and ask some questions. Armstrong's press people said yes and reserved him a seat in the front row. LeMond proceeded to ask very legitimate questions regarding the use pf power output as a bio indicator. This is an important part of the both Garmin and Columbia's internal programs so it made sense that if Armstrong really was going to have the best testing program ever that it would incorporate these elements.

Of course lance never answered the questions, belittled Greg as a has been who needs to "Move On". After the press conference Armstrong press people intimidately began to spin the story as Lemond was a nutty stalker...... complete ignoring the fact that LeMond's questions were completely valid and the Catlin testing program was a complete sham.

 

[usedtobefast]

keep lance off this thread please

 

[Karma02]

Williams was not in the USDA OOC testing pool.

You obviously have not done your research. He was not at the time but was in for several years. He has also been tested at all the Master world events as well as possible testing at elite events and world cup events over the last 10 years.
So, he is not following the typical masters guy who only does events that there will not be testing.

So, I have to agree, adding accusations that are fueled by what one can only guess to be your own ego problems and not based on fact is doing nothing for the sport everyone here claims to love.

 

[montel]

Money is obviously an issue, but even a small amount of testing in areas which have a lot of quality racing, say California, the PNW, and wherever else there is a high concentration of racers, would go along way. At least the threat of testing would be there.

I have over the years talked to people at USCF, NORBA, NCNCA and other organizations as well as sending in letters to cyclingnews suggesting a new yet simple way to create a powerful doping deterrent:

1. Establish an independent USA cycling testing authority
2. Take $5 from every USAC license for funding the authority
3. Take $1 from every entry in every race category for funding the authority
4. Have the authorities purview to randomly select both races and categories to test all around the USA - Juniors, Masters, Cat 4, Cat 1, Pro etc...Road, Cyclo-Cross, Mountain & BMX. Any race anywhere
5. Only do the actual full lab tests on just some of those collected "random" samples - say 20% - Take the samples just don't test as many as are taken
6. Positive A - then the B samples is tested at different lab
7. Strong bans up to Lifetime bans depending on the substance.

With the above protocol you could create a new drug deterrent system that creates a huge dis-incentive for any rider to dope - A rider would show up at a crit or road race and find out there is doping control after the finish only for some yet as unknown random category & riders.

 

[usedtobefast]

you know all the officials have to say they are against doping, but it is so ingrained in sports, and humanity, it is an uphill battle at best. like a lot of things, you can only hope to contain it. that seems to be the biopassport model
eh? rider/athlete safety needs to be #1 priority in any case.imho.

 

[Oldman]

I have over the years talked to people at USCF, NORBA, NCNCA and other organizations as well as sending in letters to cyclingnews suggesting a new yet simple way to create a powerful doping deterrent:

1. Establish an independent USA cycling testing authority
2. Take $5 from every USAC license for funding the authority
3. Take $1 from every entry in every race category for funding the authority
4. Have the authorities purview to randomly select both races and categories to test all around the USA - Juniors, Masters, Cat 4, Cat 1, Pro etc...Road, Cyclo-Cross, Mountain & BMX. Any race anywhere
5. Only do the actual full lab tests on just some of those collected "random" samples - say 20% - Take the samples just don't test as many as are taken
6. Positive A - then the B samples is tested at different lab
7. Strong bans up to Lifetime bans depending on the substance.

With the above protocol you could create a new drug deterrent system that creates a huge dis-incentive for any rider to dope - A rider would show up at a crit or road race and find out there is doping control after the finish only for some yet as unknown random category & riders.

Make sure the funds go only for testing. Otherwise the beauacracy will simply do what UCI does and use the funds at their "discretion" and absorb the rest as administrative expenses. USA Cycling has had internal testing for national teams for decades. How many positives have they told you about at this point? They can't afford to tell you and still front a competitive amateur squad. Like the UCI; the foundation has to be new and the house really squeaky clean.

 

[Ripper]

I have over the years talked to people at USCF, NORBA, NCNCA and other organizations as well as sending in letters to cyclingnews suggesting a new yet simple way to create a powerful doping deterrent:

1. Establish an independent USA cycling testing authority
2. Take $5 from every USAC license for funding the authority
3. Take $1 from every entry in every race category for funding the authority
4. Have the authorities purview to randomly select both races and categories to test all around the USA - Juniors, Masters, Cat 4, Cat 1, Pro etc...Road, Cyclo-Cross, Mountain & BMX. Any race anywhere
5. Only do the actual full lab tests on just some of those collected "random" samples - say 20% - Take the samples just don't test as many as are taken
6. Positive A - then the B samples is tested at different lab
7. Strong bans up to Lifetime bans depending on the substance.

With the above protocol you could create a new drug deterrent system that creates a huge dis-incentive for any rider to dope - A rider would show up at a crit or road race and find out there is doping control after the finish only for some yet as unknown random category & riders.

Hmmm, I am not sure spending money on testing Cat 4 would be cost effective. And creating "strong" bans is not something you can do easily in isolation, I believe it has to be in line with WADA and UCI. Shall we test Cat 4 and Cat 3 for EPO? How about banning for cold medication? That'll teach the cheaters

Perhaps more focused testing (with more sensitive tests), and better timing, is a better solution to just more testing?

 

[iliveonnitro]

Hmmm, I am not sure spending money on testing Cat 4 would be cost effective. And creating "strong" bans is not something you can do easily in isolation, I believe it has to be in line with WADA and UCI. Shall we test Cat 4 and Cat 3 for EPO? How about banning for cold medication? That'll teach the cheaters

Perhaps more focused testing (with more sensitive tests), and better timing, is a better solution to just more testing?

Top 3 at ALL Nationals events, not just some of them. Then, more targeted focus on the bigger non-NRC races. Much of those races are used as prep for teams, where no testing will take place.

 

[dolophonic]

Top 3 at ALL Nationals events, not just some of them. Then, more targeted focus on the bigger non-NRC races. Much of those races are used as prep for teams, where no testing will take place.

U can pay for them?
This testing costs a lot.. i don't want to see double entry fee's etc.
Feck em if they are stupid enuff to dope in cat 4. Losers.!

 

[fatandfast]

U can pay for them?
This testing costs a lot.. i don't want to see double entry fee's etc.
Feck em if they are stupid enuff to dope in cat 4. Losers.!

No reason to test anybody but pros and championships/nationals. Record breakers. People take themselves way too seriously about loosing if a 2,3,4 or 5 is juiced he or she is a looser before the gun. Adults that fake their id's to play children's sports are a close 2nd. Maybe we can have all the rims lowered so I can dunk while they are at it.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

1. Establish an independent USA cycling testing authority
2. Take $5 from every USAC license for funding the authority
3. Take $1 from every entry in every race category for funding the authority
4. Have the authorities purview to randomly select both races and categories to test all around the USA - Juniors, Masters, Cat 4, Cat 1, Pro etc...Road, Cyclo-Cross, Mountain & BMX. Any race anywhere
5. Only do the actual full lab tests on just some of those collected "random" samples - say 20% - Take the samples just don't test as many as are taken
6. Positive A - then the B samples is tested at different lab
7. Strong bans up to Lifetime bans depending on the substance.

Very good post Montel.

If we compare these to what we currently have, I think I'd be pretty much all for them. As you say in #5, I don't see the need for actually testing all the way down to Cat 4, but I would definitely say yes to Cat 1 and Masters. Though the threat of testing alone may scare quite a few from doping.

I'd also like to see some of the funding going to education, and preventative measures. There's a lot that can be taught to junior riders, other than just having them immersed into the omerta.

 

[Oldman]

No reason to test anybody but pros and championships/nationals. Record breakers. People take themselves way too seriously about loosing if a 2,3,4 or 5 is juiced he or she is a looser before the gun. Adults that fake their id's to play children's sports are a close 2nd. Maybe we can have all the rims lowered so I can dunk while they are at it.

Right on! If you can't make it up the food chain you're just chum, dude. If you're a Cat 2 or under and beaten by a local juicer; train harder. If you can't beat him you're not ready for the next step.

 

[Berzin]

If you're a Cat 2 or under and beaten by a local juicer; train harder. If you can't beat him you're not ready for the next step.

And take a wild guess what many in this situation think "the next step" is, when faced with trying to beat a local juicer...

Right on! If you can't make it up the food chain you're just chum, dude.

No offense, but it's exactly this type of attitude that really doesn't help. Almost all the riders in all the categories that race in the US fall into this category.

Good locals beat everyone in their area, but they themselves can't leave town or they'll be exposed. If this weren't the case these superstars would be making noise on the international scene.

This is the reason we have 'roided up masters' racing and little else to show for it besides Davis Phinney, and we still have no idea if he'll be able to translate his track prowess onto the road at the highest level.

 

[montel]

Right on! If you can't make it up the food chain you're just chum, dude. If you're a Cat 2 or under and beaten by a local juicer; train harder. If you can't beat him you're not ready for the next step.

I do think the idea of testing any category on its face may seem worthless, but if you are looking at riders who are racing and doping then the problem is systemic - in that if you "allow" a lowly cat 2 to beat people doping you only encourage others who want beat him to dope in my opinion. Plus how do riders become pro - they move their way up through the categories. Juniors, new riders, and who ever is moving up the ladder, if they see others doping or feel there is no threat not to then why not do it.

Hell there are people who "dope" for the local training rides...if people are willing to do that for a dumb training ride I can only imagine what some are ready to do for more glory. I think some deterrent needs to exist at the local/regional level that doesn't now. My ideas are just my reactions to what I have seen and are based around those riders who have moved up through the system, may have doped, some who were caught, and some who are even now coaches of young riders...

 

[Bikingmom]

No sympathy

So, here it is, my first post on this forum. I have no sympathy for Kenny Williams and his recent positive. I am also disappointed that the UCI Commissaire at Marymoor actually wrote an email on a local listserve, asking everyone to support Kenny during this difficult time. Bull! Kenny is only apologetic because he got caught. I wish that the other folks on the podium at nats this year could have their night over again and the actual winner could get his jersey. Funny, ironic thing is that several years ago, I beat Annette Williams in the finals of the sprint tourney at nats. and after that, there were some rumors that I was doping, how else could anyone beat Annette? I'll tell you how, I was faster and raced smarter.

 

[Ripper]

I still think testing needs to be focused. It is not cost effective to be testing Cat 3, 4 or 5. By all means select 1/2 events, certain Masters events, and targeting certain riders. And of course national level events or pro events.