Kenny Williams

[Hugh Januss]

I still think testing needs to be focused. It is not cost effective to be testing Cat 3, 4 or 5. By all means select 1/2 events, certain Masters events, and targeting certain riders. And of course national level events or pro events.

And for masters if we just did a little good old "profiling" and tested mostly new masters racers with high paying jobs who quickly rise to the top and masters racers who are also professional cycling coaches we would probably sooner or later catch almost all the cheaters.

 

[HelmutRoole]

... I am also disappointed that the UCI Commissaire at Marymoor actually wrote an email on a local listserve, asking everyone to support Kenny during this difficult time. Bull!

+1. What did he call him? An honorable man or some horse crap? I mean, by definition, what he did was dishonorable. Effing *** clown.

 

[Oldman]

And take a wild guess what many in this situation think "the next step" is, when faced with trying to beat a local juicer...



No offense, but it's exactly this type of attitude that really doesn't help. Almost all the riders in all the categories that race in the US fall into this category.
Good locals beat everyone in their area, but they themselves can't leave town or they'll be exposed. If this weren't the case these superstars would be making noise on the international scene.

This is the reason we have 'roided up masters' racing and little else to show for it besides Davis Phinney, and we still have no idea if he'll be able to translate his track prowess onto the road at the highest level.

No offense taken-just trying to stimulate some discussion. My concerns are many including cost, expertise of testers, local protocol...We really don't need local officials adjucating life changing tests based on my current experience. Testing riders on an application basis when they post for catagory upgrades would be a way; require a test period prior to upgrade and again after. Juniors should not be required to pay but a modest cost for all others could come from a fund. I don't think the Cat2 that sits locally and cherry picks races is a problem to be ignored but really, if you're going to be a pro you're facing this thing on a larger scale. If you're that easily tempted hopefully your ethical frailty could by managed by the upgrade testing?

 

[Ripper]

And for masters if we just did a little good old "profiling" and tested mostly new masters racers with high paying jobs who quickly rise to the top and masters racers who are also professional cycling coaches we would probably sooner or later catch almost all the cheaters.

Sounds like you've nailed it! And don't forget the prime hunters who never place in the top 3 but rack up cash prizes all the time

 

[HelmutRoole]

Originally Posted by Hugh Januss View Post
And for masters if we just did a little good old "profiling" and tested mostly new masters racers with high paying jobs who quickly rise to the top and masters racers who are also professional cycling coaches we would probably sooner or later catch almost all the cheaters.

It should be up to the officials to decide who gets profiled but if you look at the slobs passing them off as bastions of knowledge in the sport you can tell they have no racing experience. Phil Miller, the UCI commissaire who is local to Seattle and wrote the apologetic prologue to Williams pathetic apology, is a good example: a squirrely fat slob on the bike.

Thing is, the people who are buying Williams apology are the same people he lays waste to in competition:http://www.fixedgearfever.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=./viewtopic&t=7195

There should be a regional doping commissaire to target test the obvious offenders. Someone who knows what the hell they're looking at... maybe Williams would be up for the job since his experience is vast in this area. I don't think his coaching business is going anywhere at the moment.

 

[BroDeal]

... maybe Williams would be up for the job since his experience is vast in this area. I don't think his coaching business is going anywhere at the moment.

Getting busted could be the best advertising ever for people who want a certain kind of coaching.

 

[Kennf1]

Getting busted could be the best advertising ever for people who want a certain kind of coaching.

Almost as good as a criminal conviction that is later overturned.

 

[HelmutRoole]

2 years

Colorado Springs, Colo. (December 3, 2009) – The United States Anti-doping Agency (USADA) announced today that Kenneth Williams, an athlete in the sport of cycling has tested positive for a prohibited substance and has accepted a suspension for his anti-doping rules violation.

A urine sample collected at the USA Cycling Masters Track National Championships from Williams by USADA on August 21, 2009, resulted in an adverse analytical finding, as measured by carbon isotope ration analysis, for an anabolic agent, which is prohibited under the USADA Protocol for Olympic and Paralympic Movement Testing and the rules of the Union Cycliste Internationale, both of which have adopted the World Anti-Doping Code (Code) and the World Anti-Doping Agency Prohibited List.

Mr. Williams admitted using an Anabolic Agent and accepted a two-year period of ineligibility for this anti-doping rule violation. Mr. Williams’ two-year period of ineligibility began on September 21, 2009, the date he accepted a provisional suspension.

As a result of the doping violation, Williams has been disqualified from all competitive results achieved on and subsequent to July 27, 2009, the date upon which he admits using the prohibited Anabolic Agent, including all results achieved at the USA Cycling Masters Track National Championships in August 2009, and including forfeiture of any medals, points, and prizes.

 

[= 7 1 4 =]

+1. What did he call him? An honorable man or some horse crap? I mean, by definition, what he did was dishonorable. Effing *** clown.

not many sheep out there today understand what "honorable" means, so when we all hear about "honorable" people, that has to be properly judged/adjudicated. most people lack the tools/knowledge/experience to properly do that. in life, it turns out that many times, "honorable" is really "dishonorable."

my personal opinion of the soft & lazy populace today is that a CAT 5 would dope to win a 15 mile crit or break 23 mph in a local TT. so a local CAT 1-2 or 40+ Masters rider? umm...yeah, dope on losers.......pathetic. sad...very, very sad for this grand sport. great way to respect cycling...

 

[BroDeal]

Has what he tested positive for been confirmed as DHEA? The reports I read all say something like, "he tested positive for an anabolic agent, promply admitted to using DHEA, and accepted a suspension." The anabolic agent he tested positive for is never specified. The reports leave open the possibility that admission to DHEA use may have been a cover for use of a real anabolic drug.

 

[fatandfast]

not many sheep out there today understand what "honorable" means, so when we all hear about "honorable" people, that has to be properly judged/adjudicated. most people lack the tools/knowledge/experience to properly do that. in life, it turns out that many times, "honorable" is really "dishonorable."

my personal opinion of the soft & lazy populace today is that a CAT 5 would dope to win a 15 mile crit or break 23 mph in a local TT. so a local CAT 1-2 or 40+ Masters rider? umm...yeah, dope on losers.......pathetic. sad...very, very sad for this grand sport. great way to respect cycling...

I think you know a great deal about the twits that fight to establish themselves as anything more than pack fill. A tweet here and there,digital camera shots and a blog mixed with some local stompings made this guy into a coach to lots of Jrs and people working hard to improve their abilities. When I won my first Cat 4 race I was on top of the world, but before I could get my license signed and a gift cert. for 30 dollars some azzcheese wanted to beat my skull..he needed his license signed for a 6th place to upgrade. The official told him he would only sign for top 3 because that was all the placings they were keeping track of...I am sure that that sh-tbag is probably being coached by somebody like Kenny who has shown him how to be king of his local parking lot crit. They should do away with 2 categories and raise feild limits to 125 and get rid of all this grey haired feel good bs. The fed has divided the body of racers into so many divisions that even a masters win is life or death. Wish you were wrong about the Cat5 and the 15 mile crit but I know you are right.

 

[HelmutRoole]

...(USAC) should do away with 2 categories and raise feild limits to 125 and get rid of all this grey haired feel good bs. The fed has divided the body of racers into so many divisions that even a masters win is life or death...

+1. Please, just race everyone together and let the officials sort them out grand fondo style. You don't see road running races contesting individual events per age/sex/category.

Ps... Williams is a douche bag.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Has what he tested positive for been confirmed as DHEA? The reports I read all say something like, "he tested positive for an anabolic agent, promply admitted to using DHEA, and accepted a suspension." The anabolic agent he tested positive for is never specified. The reports leave open the possibility that admission to DHEA use may have been a cover for use of a real anabolic drug.

I think they're classifying DHEA as an anabolic substance. That's how I"m reading it.

 

[BroDeal]

I think they're classifying DHEA as an anabolic substance. That's how I"m reading it.

It seems like all the reports of Hamilton specifically stated that he had tested positive for DHEA. I found the apparent difference a little odd.

 

[Oldman]

+1. Please, just race everyone together and let the officials sort them out grand fondo style. You don't see road running races contesting individual events per age/sex/category.

Ps... Williams is a douche bag.

We tried that in the NW for Masters. It totally discourage new riders who make up some pretty big numbers for the promoters. An example of typical attendance for the added catagories:
Master A=Cat 1-3, 30yrs+/25 riders
Master B=Cat3-4, 30yrs+/40 riders
Master C=Cat4-5, 30yrs+/50 riders
Master D=All Cats over 40 yrs/30+riders

Juniors have expanded as well. Catagory racing has exploded in attendance on the Cat 4,5 levels for men and women. While this is healthy for numbers, it complicates organization. We don't have the roads and governmental support to put 300 riders into a single event so that won't work.

I think riders should be tested if they want a catagory upgrade. They could apply for the upgrade and, during a probationary period they would need to: a)have a podium result b)get tested. You could also pick several regional events each year where riders must compete to sustain their catagory status for Cats 1,2. Have finisher and "random" testing at those events. Would that work?

 

[HelmutRoole]

It seems like all the reports of Hamilton specifically stated that he had tested positive for DHEA. I found the apparent difference a little odd.

I wonder now too.

A urine sample collected at the USA Cycling Masters Track National Championships from Williams by USADA on August 21, 2009, resulted in an adverse analytical finding, as measured by carbon isotope ration analysis...

Carbon isotope ration analysis... wasn't this used to determine Landis' testosterone was exogenous? So, why would they use it if they confirmed DHEA?

 

[Race Radio]

I wonder now too.



Carbon isotope ration analysis... wasn't this used to determine Landis' testosterone was exogenous? So, why would they use it if they confirmed DHEA?

DHEA is a testosterone precursor.

 

[BroDeal]

DHEA is a testosterone precursor.

A quick google seems to indicate that DHEA can easily be detected by simple analysis of the urine. This appears in the first article I googled: "authors recommend a urinary concentration threshold of 300 mg per litre of DHEA glucuronide for drug-screening purposes."

I did find a paper about using isotope ratio mass spectrometry to detect DHEA. The abstract implies that the test is specifically for exogenous DHEA, which leaves us with the question of why the reports would say a generic anabolic agent rather than name the exact substance.

 

[montel]

We tried that in the NW for Masters. It totally discourage new riders who make up some pretty big numbers for the promoters. An example of typical attendance for the added catagories:
Master A=Cat 1-3, 30yrs+/25 riders
Master B=Cat3-4, 30yrs+/40 riders
Master C=Cat4-5, 30yrs+/50 riders
Master D=All Cats over 40 yrs/30+riders

Juniors have expanded as well. Catagory racing has exploded in attendance on the Cat 4,5 levels for men and women. While this is healthy for numbers, it complicates organization. We don't have the roads and governmental support to put 300 riders into a single event so that won't work.

I think riders should be tested if they want a catagory upgrade. They could apply for the upgrade and, during a probationary period they would need to: a)have a podium result b)get tested. You could also pick several regional events each year where riders must compete to sustain their catagory status for Cats 1,2. Have finisher and "random" testing at those events. Would that work?

+1 I think that would be a great idea - I think more randoms are important though...

 

[Oldman]

+1 I think that would be a great idea - I think more randoms are important though...

Noting that none of this comes without a cost both in dollars and energy for local associations. Considering the confusion between UCI, Wada, T de F and others there is alot of room for error and politics. The discussion regarding isotope analysis vs. "DHEA" result, for example; USA Cycling can't say it suspects other anabolic agents as the test stops there. DHEA is a chickensh*t masking agent...

 

[fatandfast]

We tried that in the NW for Masters. It totally discourage new riders who make up some pretty big numbers for the promoters. An example of typical attendance for the added catagories:
Master A=Cat 1-3, 30yrs+/25 riders
Master B=Cat3-4, 30yrs+/40 riders
Master C=Cat4-5, 30yrs+/50 riders
Master D=All Cats over 40 yrs/30+riders

Juniors have expanded as well. Catagory racing has exploded in attendance on the Cat 4,5 levels for men and women. While this is healthy for numbers, it complicates organization. We don't have the roads and governmental support to put 300 riders into a single event so that won't work.

I think riders should be tested if they want a catagory upgrade. They could apply for the upgrade and, during a probationary period they would need to: a)have a podium result b)get tested. You could also pick several regional events each year where riders must compete to sustain their catagory status for Cats 1,2. Have finisher and "random" testing at those events. Would that work?

There should be no masters 1's or 5's. Cat 1 should go back to national team status, or eliminate 5 all together and have pro,1 races, Make 1 a Cat that takes 8 or 10 wins as a 2 to achieve.To be a 1 you should have win 10 cat2 races. Cat5 races should only be raced by 5's. 30 is way to young to already be handicapped,35 or 40 should be the start of masters cat's. No matter what, no social promotion,if you didn't win your way to the next category stay there until you do or are old enough to race in an "easier" cat of 35 or 40 masters. Anybody who has raced against Thurlow knows being old doesn't mean slow. You should not have to "apply" for an upgrade. You should have documented wins and placings to upgrade the application is a formality from district rep/federation. All this upgrade without results has screwed everything up.If you start as a 18 year old 5 and you never get enough results/points to upgrade you have to make the choice at 25 is bike racing really for me? Cat5 races should have waiting lists,5 to4 should be really hard not really easy.

 

[Oldman]

There should be no masters 1's or 5's. Cat 1 should go back to national team status, or eliminate 5 all together and have pro,1 races, Make 1 a Cat that takes 8 or 10 wins as a 2 to achieve.To be a 1 you should have win 10 cat2 races. Cat5 races should only be raced by 5's. 30 is way to young to already be handicapped,35 or 40 should be the start of masters cat's. No matter what, no social promotion,if you didn't win your way to the next category stay there until you do or are old enough to race in an "easier" cat of 35 or 40 masters. Anybody who has raced against Thurlow knows being old doesn't mean slow. You should not have to "apply" for an upgrade. You should have documented wins and placings to upgrade the application is a formality from district rep/federation. All this upgrade without results has screwed everything up.If you start as a 18 year old 5 and you never get enough results/points to upgrade you have to make the choice at 25 is bike racing really for me? Cat5 races should have waiting lists,5 to4 should be really hard not really easy.

Agree on items in blue, disagree in red. We have tons of Masters that are Cat2+ that don't have training or racing time for 5 day stage races. They are the paying demographic for promoters. If they choose to race a major event; they need their Cat 1,2 status to do it. As for the upgrade protocol I totally agree. I'm also not eager to race with Cat 3's anytime soon.

 

[fatandfast]

Dear Oldman I am not sure if my formula is exact and masters certainly need a place to race and enjoy bike racing. My beef is how people are getting upgraded as pack clumps from one category to the next. I certainly put Thurlow on a throne, but there are lots of other super high quality masters like him. Early MTB racing, you could sign up for whatever class you wanted,it would take about 50ft before you could pick out a sport that was bluffing it in expert. I think Radio Shack and and even bigger awareness of the ToC and TDF will give racing a boost and in order to not put a wet blanket on the fire of new racers the fed will probably continue with the "we are proud of you" way vs win move up style that I am talking about. My disappointment is furthered all over US kids sports where scores are not kept,a trophy for last place is common. Bike racing throughout the world is not easy, I hope the easier US version doesn't make us even softer in the future

 

[BikeCentric]

Dear Oldman I am not sure if my formula is exact and masters certainly need a place to race and enjoy bike racing. My beef is how people are getting upgraded as pack clumps from one category to the next. I certainly put Thurlow on a throne, but there are lots of other super high quality masters like him. Early MTB racing, you could sign up for whatever class you wanted,it would take about 50ft before you could pick out a sport that was bluffing it in expert. I think Radio Shack and and even bigger awareness of the ToC and TDF will give racing a boost and in order to not put a wet blanket on the fire of new racers the fed will probably continue with the "we are proud of you" way vs win move up style that I am talking about. My disappointment is furthered all over US kids sports where scores are not kept,a trophy for last place is common. Bike racing throughout the world is not easy, I hope the easier US version doesn't make us even softer in the future

Honestly I think you're quite exaggerating the ease of upgrading. Cat 5 to 4 is the only upgrade that is easy because all you have to do is enter 15 mass-start races, but that's the point, Cat 5 is suppossed to be the true noob category.

From 4 to 3 is maybe not that hard either depending on where you race and how good you are since you can do it with either 10 top 10's or the points from placings. But every other upgrade requires the points from placings so I really don't see ease of upgrading as a problem. As a matter of fact in the really competitive districts there are a lot of really good riders in the 3's and 4's because of the difficulty in placing in highly competitive fields. Which is fine, it makes the racing good at that level and if you can't place in those fields then there's really no point in upgrading.

As far as the number of different fields I also don't see a problem. Promotors need to make money in order to put on races and Masters are often some of the bigger fields consistently at many races. Masters know they are not going pro nor do they want to - they are folks who already have a career and bike racing is a healthy hobby for them - why throw them in with the young guys who are often looking to see how far they can take their skills? No I don't see a problem with having different Masters cats at all.

 

[fatandfast]

Honestly I think you're quite exaggerating the ease of upgrading. Cat 5 to 4 is the only upgrade that is easy because all you have to do is enter 15 mass-start races, but that's the point, Cat 5 is suppossed to be the true noob category.

From 4 to 3 is maybe not that hard either depending on where you race and how good you are since you can do it with either 10 top 10's or the points from placings. But every other upgrade requires the points from placings so I really don't see ease of upgrading as a problem. As a matter of fact in the really competitive districts there are a lot of really good riders in the 3's and 4's because of the difficulty in placing in highly competitive fields. Which is fine, it makes the racing good at that level and if you can't place in those fields then there's really no point in upgrading.

As far as the number of different fields I also don't see a problem. Promotors need to make money in order to put on races and Masters are often some of the bigger fields consistently at many races. Masters know they are not going pro nor do they want to - they are folks who already have a career and bike racing is a healthy hobby for them - why throw them in with the young guys who are often looking to see how far they can take their skills? No I don't see a problem with having different Masters cats at all.

5 categories. 2 of 5 are easy to upgrade. That's 40% easy by regular math. Find out you are not cut out for promotion while in 5's. Needing a special category because you are 30 speaks volumes. Giving a child or adult an "upgrade" for showing up 10 times is lame. As for big fields for people with jobs so that the promoter makes money.....sounds like MS 150. Thank God they leave Rugby and Aus rules football pure. When a 35 year old prepares to get crushed would you suggest that a special vest(pink maybe) is worn so he will be gently tossed on the pitch? Healthy hobby isn't that what the public race is for? This is where golf and football(soccer) have the advantage if your results suck you get relegated . You are right we need grass roots racers I just think the fields should be doubled and the categories halved. Just a simple difference of opinion