Kimmage interviews Floyd Landis: Sunday Times + Bombshell NYVC transcript [merged]

[mewmewmew13]

Just finished it all. I feel drained. There were tears in my eyes for the last part.
It's all such a mess. I hope he gets a job outside of cycling and once the investigation is over, never looks back. He's too good and honest for cycling. I can't be bothered arguing with the Flickers of this world about him. He has paid enough of a price. Not easy to articulate, but that piece is bloody powerful, fascinating, troubling and sad. It's a f***ing tragedy and I just hope to God he gets some peace in the future. The pain leaps out of the words. Anyways that's my take on today. I shall leave it to the rest of yee to argue it out amongst yourselves.

yes, agree very nice post digger. well said. thanks

 

[lean mean &green]

Just finished it all. I feel drained. There were tears in my eyes for the last part.
It's all such a mess. I hope he gets a job outside of cycling and once the investigation is over, never looks back. He's too good and honest for cycling. I can't be bothered arguing with the Flickers of this world about him. He has paid enough of a price. Not easy to articulate, but that piece is bloody powerful, fascinating, troubling and sad. It's a f***ing tragedy and I just hope to God he gets some peace in the future. The pain leaps out of the words. Anyways that's my take on today. I shall leave it to the rest of yee to argue it out amongst yourselves.

digger my friend, the night is darkest just before the dawn

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

To quote George Orwell...

The only thing that will convince some people which century they are living in is dynamite

Good quote.

Where's the dynamite stored?

 

[flicker]

yes, agree very nice post digger. well said. thanks

Yup Floyd is OK. He only cheated at the tour. Plus he really didn't because he was not on testesterone steroid, for sure because floyd says. Flickie says that makes kloeden vino ulrich olympic A OK too, also all Lances wins, also Bettinis olympic golds. also Tyler and Millers golds too. All good in the hood verdad.

Just asking but did Kimmage the good ask Floyd if he ever dealt with the hacking warrant in France. Oh yes that is forgiven also since Floyds' seven hour LIBERATION, AKA Mr. Floyd comes out of the closet now, its' all good now boys and girls just please don't tell granpa.

 

[Francois the Postman]

It`s never been a secret. No differant now than 20 years ago..as it was no differant 20 years before then.:

20? Guess the year:

"Veel betrokkenen hebben jarenlang toegekeken hoe de doping de wielersport aanvrat als een dodelijke kankervlek. Niet alleen renners maar vooral die parasieten zijn er de oorzaak van dat de wielersport wordt beschouwd als de dopingsport bij uitstek en dat het publiek de rug keert naar de atleten op de fiets."
Many of those involved [with cycling] have witnessed for years how doping has been eating away like a deadly cancer. Not just the riders, but especially the parasites are the reason why cycling is seen as the doping sport bar none, and why the public is turning its back to the athletes on their bike.

Rider comment:
"Dat ze ons met rust laten. Als dat zo doorgaat is binnen drie jaar de hele wielersport naar de bliksem. Er zullen er nog meer moeten stoppen."
They should leave us alone. If it continues like this, the sport of cycling will have gone belly up within 3 years."


It was written by Karel van Assche, author of "Dossier Doping". The rider was Jan Janssen. The book by the Belgian journalist was written in 1967.

Inspired by Simpson's death, exposing the corruption and spread of doping that was rife even then. Anquetil had won Liege Bastogne Liege the year before. He gave a positive urine sample. He was dethroned. Briefly. And then reinstated. There was too much at stake. It showed how complex the interaction between riders, team owners, sponsors, national organisations and press was.

Different era, different names, same story.

Except, indeed, it was a kitchen sink science then, it is space era technology now, with infinately more potent "doop".

 

[MacRoadie]

Yup Floyd is OK. He only cheated at the tour. Plus he really didn't because he was not on testesterone steroid, for sure because floyd says. Flickie says that makes kloeden vino ulrich olympic A OK too, also all Lances wins, also Bettinis olympic golds. also Tyler and Millers golds too. All good in the hood verdad.

Just asking but did Kimmage the good ask Floyd if he ever dealt with the hacking warrant in France. Oh yes that is forgiven also since Floyds' seven hour LIBERATION, AKA Mr. Floyd comes out of the closet now, its' all good now boys and girls just please don't tell granpa.

Gotta hand it to you. You just keep plugging away no matter what.

 

[Sanitiser]

He's sort of right though.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Different era, different names, same story.

Good post.

There's a quote from Anquetil somewhere, and I may have the wording wrong but the message is close, where he said that if doping is really that bad of a problem the police would get involved. And they were the only one's he'd trust to be impartial anyway.

10 years, 20 years, 40 years...

 

[Anonymous]

2. What happened when you collapsed on the way to "La Toussuire"? Bad reaction to a doping program

I felt that was addressed. Floyd said even with a program you still have bad days, days when you just dont feel good. And good days when you feel great.

 

[flicker]

Gotta hand it to you. You just keep plugging away no matter what.

you want a revelation on who doped Lance the first time and the substance and date. Nah....... that would make the Hog here kinda redundant. Or who doped LeMond when, where and what date. Nah wouldn't want to spoil it for ya...

 

[131313]

We saw where Sonia Schenk's reform based bid got her.

Indeed. One of about 20 people who kinda remember her can't even remember her first name!

 

[MacRoadie]

He's sort of right though.

No, he isn't. He continually attempts to obfuscate whatever constructive information that may be found in interviews like this by introducing the same old lines utilized to discredit Landis for years now.

Should the guy be given a medal? Hell no. In fact, I think he should be stripped of the other wins that year (Daupine and Tour of Cali) now that he has admitted to doping the entire 2006 season. He doped. We know that already.

If the French had any real interest in Floyd, for ANY real reason, there would be at least the tiniest hint from somewhere in the French press, especially in light of all the press Landis is getting lately. Curiously, there is none.

I sometimes wonder if Floyd were to come out post-career and do some free PSA's about suicide and mental health, solely as a way to honor his late father in law, if flicker or some other like-minded individual (read into that what you may) would be on here in hours saying "Yeah, but it's just Floyd coming out of the closet to ease his own demons" or some other such garbage.

Unfortunately for flicky, he's a modern day Don Quixote jousting windmills. He tries to discredit those he thinks have elevated Floyd to some hero state, when no such people exist.

 

[MacRoadie]

Or who doped LeMond when, where and what date. Nah wouldn't want to spoil it for ya...

Ah, took you 43 pages to land your first LeMond doped post. Good job.

Yes, I desperately want to know who doped LeMond where and what date.

And if you don't produce it here in public, well we all know what that means.


PS, "when" and "what date" are the same thing genius.

 

[webvan]

I felt that was addressed. Floyd said even with a program you still have bad days, days when you just dont feel good. And good days when you feel great.

Good point, still that was worse than a bad day I think, I've never seen a GT contender have a bad day like that over the past 30 years! Well except Landis on the way up to the Ventourx during the 2006 Dauphiné.

Moving on, other questions Kimmage forgot :
- How much did Lelangue and Rihs know about your doping program?
- Rihs said he had never gave you €90000 for your doping program as stated in your emails, what gives?

[Oh wait, these guys are back in business...managing good ol' Evans, the only hope for non-doped GT win in our time...did Landis ask that this part be redacted out?]

- I understand you were upset by Bruyneel's talk after the ITT but isn't the reason you left USPS after your excellent 2004 TDF because you thought you could win the TDF quicker than by waiting for LA to retire? Don't you regret not waiting another year?

@MacRoadie - good detective work on the salary part, I'm not sure why he would have mentioned $60,000 as part of leaving USPS though.

 

[Sanitiser]

Unfortunately for flicky, he's a modern day Don Quixote jousting windmills. He tries to discredit those he thinks have elevated Floyd to some hero state, when no such people exist.

When people want to put him on a poster; he's become a hero.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Just finished it all. I feel drained. There were tears in my eyes for the last part.
It's all such a mess. I hope he gets a job outside of cycling and once the investigation is over, never looks back. He's too good and honest for cycling. I can't be bothered arguing with the Flickers of this world about him. He has paid enough of a price. Not easy to articulate, but that piece is bloody powerful, fascinating, troubling and sad. It's a f***ing tragedy and I just hope to God he gets some peace in the future. The pain leaps out of the words. Anyways that's my take on today. I shall leave it to the rest of yee to argue it out amongst yourselves.

I am with you, right up to the point that Floyd said that he would do it all again, the same way, if he was given a blank piece of paper. Except he wouldn't lie about it. He would still do everything needed to win the TdF. For that feeling.

That to me translates as being honest about cheating (subtext - it is the only way). And it makes him very suited for the world of cycling, still, I'd argue.

I don't think he is the worst player in the piece, not by a long stretch. But he ain't exactly a hero to me either. This new stance is happening after he had no way back in left, and he realised that the only way forward for him is to make peace with his past, for himself, and move on.

I am sure he would love it when it will change things for the Floyds of the future. But the heroes, to me, are the ones that would have a shot at a clean career, but decide to walk away from the route needed before embarking on it. Anonymous guys that are taking a real personal hit, and do it anyway.

Don't get me wrong, from a human pov he sounds a decent enough chap, and I do wish him well, whichever way he wants to take himself now. I am sure that if I got to know him, I would probably prefer folk like him over many others. And I am sure as hell glad he is saying what he is saying now, giving others a chance to make a difference.

But to glorify someone who went the whole way, tried to climb back on the iron horse with the same ambition, and only gave up after the last chords were severed... that's a bit too much for me.

He's had one heck of a walk through life, so far, that's for sure. I'd love to sit down for a drink and listen.

There is a great tragic story here. The guy is utterly human, paradoxically straight-up in a self-contradictory sort of way, a cheater and liar with a genuine conscience. Naive and inquisitive. Dumb and wise (maybe after the fact, but still). Strong and fragile. Tormented and maybe finally, hopefully, on his way to a peace of sorts. An exaggerated tale of many things we all recognise.

Deep down not any worse or better than the vast majority of us? Probably.

But "good" and "honest"? I don't know. That's a bit too much glory for a late arrival, to me, although his latest life-story finally starts to sound truthful.

He'd do it all again.

 

[Granville57]

I felt that was addressed. Floyd said even with a program you still have bad days, days when you just dont feel good. And good days when you feel great.

And this from Greg Lemond at the time:

Greg was running his hand through his hair and saying how Landis had raced clean, and the proof was, look, he got tired and had a bad day in the mountains then came back and had a good day. "That," LeMond said, "is what happens when riders race clean."

He was wrong about Floyd being "clean," obviously, but it illustrates the greater point that with or without dope, big collapses on any given day can be expected.
http://www.bicycling.com/news/featured-stories/whatever-happened-greg-lemond

 

[Polish]

Fair call.

One further point on the interview. Although it didn't surprise me but still found a little shocking that Landis was saying that in 2004 they smashed everyone so hard they had to dial it back in 05. I know he had left Postal at that point but i think he was right. None the less after Vino & Ullich gave Disco a scare on stage 11 (I think) the program was amped back to devastating results.

Sad cycling never got to see the 2004/05 Tours we wanted. How could anyone compete?

They were transfusing blood for crying out loud.
Probably the kindest gentlest type of doping known to Pro Cycling.

Healthier & safer than the ether sniffing from long ago.
Heathier & safer than the amphetamines and barbituates from the 70' & 80's
Healthier & safer than EPO Transformations of the Body etc.

Floyd ended up with a booboo bruise on his arm waawaa.
Bogerd joked about it.
Pierro blood transfused - OMG what a shock.

Hinault has commented once that transfusing one's own blood is not even considered a PED in his book....

And USPS had multiple docs per rider from Floyd's e-mails.

Seriously, among the many many many team doping programs and the do-it-yourself doping programs in the history of Pro cycling, the USPS program was probably among the safest. I would bet THE safest.

Hog says "Sad cycling never got to see the 2004/05 Tours we wanted. How could anyone compete". How sad boohoo. Until you realize some teams & riders were using stronger stuff in 2004/2005 than the USPS blood transfusions and hydration bags lol

 

[MacRoadie]

When people want to put him on a poster; he's become a hero.

And there is some sort of consensus on that, or did a single individual use the poster analogy to show that part of Landis' message is something that that person respects?

You don't have to respect the man to respect his message, and you don't even have to respect ALL of his message...

 

[Sanitiser]

Medium is the message.

 

[Anonymous]

This is interesting. The lead line from two articles on NyVelocity today.

Google results.

fascinating. One of the articles appears multiple times in the searches. The other one doesnt show up.

 

[Ferminal]

I'm not saying the corruption is good or correct, but I think our small-town-boy is and always has been a bit too "small-town" to be at the top. Floyd just never understood the true nature of the game.

I think he understood it (as the apology to Hein discusses this at length), but he wasn't going to let it dictate his career and behaviour. Perhaps he didn't realise how strong it really was.

 

[Sanitiser]

Pretty mush agree with Francois. The truth is 4 years is a heck of a long time to come clean. And to be honest let's say he did play the game, came back after two years who says he wouldn't of doped again?

Fate has a way of crushing you into submission.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

They were transfusing blood for crying out loud.
Probably the kindest gentlest type of doping known to Pro Cycling.

Healthier & safer than the ether sniffing from long ago.
Heathier & safer than the amphetamines and barbituates from the 70' & 80's
Healthier & safer than EPO Transformations of the Body etc.

Floyd ended up with a booboo bruise on his arm waawaa.
Bogerd joked about it.
Pierro blood transfused - OMG what a shock.

Hinault has commented once that transfusing one's own blood is not even considered a PED in his book....

And USPS had multiple docs per rider from Floyd's e-mails.

Seriously, among the many many many team doping programs and the do-it-yourself doping programs in the history of Pro cycling, the USPS program was probably among the safest. I would bet THE safest.

Hog says "Sad cycling never got to see the 2004/05 Tours we wanted. How could anyone compete". How sad boohoo. Until you realize some teams & riders were using stronger stuff in 2004/2005 than the USPS blood transfusions and hydration bags lol

Bazaar Voice / Public Strategies / Fabiani Talking Point #8

Thanks, Polish, for continuing to establish ever new and creative rationalizations for how it was OK for Lance to operate with impunity during his 7 year voyage in winning Le Tour.

Evolving now to the point where the sheer "safety" of how "they" merits recognition and applause.

I cannot fathom where your psychological gymnastics will take you when you are faced with mounting the balance beam of justice during the oncoming indictment and subsequent trial.

 

[Ferminal]

He'd do it all again.

He would.

I hope after reading that people start seeing dopers in a different light. Floyd, and measured as he is today would still take the same path (up to 2006) he did before. He said he wanted to ride the Tour and see how good he was, it was his goal, his dream. He wanted to make a living out of cycling.

If he didn't approach JB at that training camp, he may never have made the Tour. Of course, JB probably would have approached him sooner or later. But if Floyd said that he wasn't prepared to do anything it takes, he may never have been an important part of the squad.

Who was Floyd cheating? The other guy on USPS who would miss out on his Tour transfusion that year because Floyd took his spot? Was he cheating Lance's rivals, because he was providing rocket-fuelled support? Floyd explains this - that it's doper beating dopers, and if it's not you, it's the next doper, not a clean rider.

Of course this attitude isn't admirable, but it's the reality of the situation he was in (and many face today). If Floyd said "no", would the drug problem in cycling be any different? It's the whole reason JV advocates staying quiet - one man (or one team) cannot change the reality in cycling. Of course that could be different if something comes of the last 9months, but think Floyd circa 2002, or Slipstream circa 2008.

Anyway, my point is that dopers are all human. They should be treated as humans, their decision making process should be regarded as human. If you're a professional cyclist in Floyd's day, doping was the thing to do, it wasn't some monstrous evil he was committing - it was just the normal reaction.

Whenever there is a new positive, there are always shouts of denigration - liar, cheat, scum... Ban him for life. This is such a harsh approach to someone who has made a reasonable and well thought out decision (to dope). The doper who is caught should not be the scapegoat for all the dopers who evade capture, and all the corrupt dealings of the system.

Note: I am not suggesting greater leniency in the way of punishments or that dopers are somehow more admirable than non-dopers, rather, that dopers deserve to be seen as a symptom, a reaction to the problem, not the root of the problem.