Kimmage interviews Floyd Landis: Sunday Times + Bombshell NYVC transcript [merged]

[Granville57]

What also amazes me about this whole unfolding saga is that the only thing that ever really kept this stuff from coming to light was...nobody ever said anything!

I mean, it really is that simple. Not one person from inside the USPS ranks was willing to lay it all on the line. The entire empire was protected by...nothing really. Just the faith, trust, belief in their powers of intimidation...whatever it was. Nothing real has ever protected Lance and Johan from this information coming out. Nothing.

It's astounding.

Now the walls are further weakened.

 

[Sanitiser]

One hopes somebody translates this for Contador because he seems to be going down the exact same path.

 

[sniper]

Holy smokes! That took up my whole morning. Unbelievable read. Quite the work for Paul Kimmage. The one thing that I wished Paul had gone into just a bit more were the specifics about the night before Morzine. Did Floyd do anything "special" to rev up for his epic ride besides his "normal" routine?
(...)

I was wondering the same regarding Morzine. But I guess he prepared as usuall, and an elevated motivation and attacking spirit did the rest.

@Granville: nice post.
I'm also blown away by the article.
Floyd's capacities to analyze the history from an emotional/psychological point of view. I think that's rare for public figures. And Kimmage's patience, understanding, but also his directness, not shoving anything under the carpet.
Moving stuff.

hats off to Paul and Floyd. I'm not a poster-guy, but I'd have their posters on my wall if I were.

 

[thehog]

Miller looks like a total tool out of all this.

--

Yeah. In my mind there was no difference between saying “I didn’t do it” and telling a half-truth like David Millar did: “I did it once and was hoping to get caught and I was too dumb to throw the syringe away.” That’s not what I was going to do. If I was telling the truth, then I was telling the truth and if I was going to feel guilty about lying then **** it, I’ll just lie and hope for the best. I don’t know why Vaughters sees things as simple as they are, they are not that simple.

 

[Cobblestoned]

I was wondering the same regarding Morzine. But I guess he prepared as usuall, and an elevated motivation and attacking spirit did the rest.

@Granville: nice post.
I'm also blown away by the article.
Floyd's capacities to analyze the history from an emotional/psychological point of view. I think that's rare for public figures. And Kimmage's patience, understanding, but also his directness, not shoving anything under the carpet.
Moving stuff.

hats off to Paul and Floyd. I'm not a poster-guy, but I'd have their posters on my wall if I were.

I would own a poster of Floyd if he had come out before he was caught and sent to bottom.

 

[sniper]

What also amazes me about this whole unfolding saga is that the only thing that ever really kept this stuff from coming to light was...nobody ever said anything!

I mean, it really is that simple. Not one person from inside the USPS ranks was willing to lay it all on the line. The entire empire was protected by...nothing really. Just the faith, trust, belief in their powers of intimidation...whatever it was. Nothing real has ever protected Lance and Johan from this information coming out. Nothing.

It's astounding.

Now the walls are further weakened.

Well, what I observe is this: others have also spoken out. E.g. Manzano, Jaksche, Andreu, Simeoni, Bassons, and some others. But it apparently takes someone with the extraordinary background and personality of Floyd-nothing-to-loose-Landis to really be heard, and get the stone rolling.

 

[131313]

I understand JV's comments in all of this. Unlike some, I believe he actually is trying to work within the system to create a place where people don't have to dope. I don't believe that he's overtly doping up his riders. I also don't believe that Lim was passing around needles (they wouldn't even let him advise guys on their training, he pretty much filled water bottles and did laundry, as penance for the whole Flandis debacle).

But that guy seriously needs to wake the hell up. "Keep it out of the media"? This working within the system thing only has validity when the system is such that it can be worked within. The more Landis speaks, the more the painful reality has set in: the whole thing is dirty. Coddling up to the UCI so you can get into races, when they're fixing the whole works anyway, pretty much makes you complicit at this point.

I understand the efforts JV took to stay below the radar screen so he could build the program from within. That's great, but now it's reached "go along to get along" status. Unless there are wholesale changes at the UCI and the national federations have no responsibility for sanctioning riders (the chickens aren't guarding the hen house anymore), there's not going to be any hope for change, and all of the work to "make things better" is nothing but a sham.

It's time to stop with the "look how much better things are" line as well. The aren't. Sure, guys are probably on less dope, and clean guys can finish in the top 20 versus the top 80, but the time for incremental change it over. Otherwise, it'll just slide right back.

When was the last year that a Grand Tour winner didn't lose his title? Teams thrown out of the baby friggen giro for organized team doping? The whole Astana team's doping paraphernalia confiscated a couple of years ago, and nothing has come from it years later?

This is progress??? Sounds like total BS to me.

 

[Sanitiser]

Yeah I don't get the Floyd love either. I can understand why he did the things that he did but it doesn't make it right.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

It doesn't take much to make Millar look a tool. He only has to open his mouth.

But it does make Wiggins, Millar and all the other 'clean' riders who have put the boot into Landis look like bigger tools than usual.

With the Oscar P and Boogerd stories about how 'open' it was was about doping it makes the Riis/Millar 'I had no idea what was going on at my team' excuse look like an even bigger pile of old toss than it did before.

 

[Anonymous]

What also amazes me about this whole unfolding saga is that the only thing that ever really kept this stuff from coming to light was...nobody ever said anything!

I mean, it really is that simple. Not one person from inside the USPS ranks was willing to lay it all on the line. The entire empire was protected by...nothing really. Just the faith, trust, belief in their powers of intimidation...whatever it was. Nothing real has ever protected Lance and Johan from this information coming out. Nothing.

It's astounding.

Now the walls are further weakened.

In my fanboy years my main argument defending Lance was the size the conspiracy would need to be to protect him could not exist. I never believed that if more that a handful of people had knowlege of the doping/corruption it would be able to be concealed...

But you are right. It's as simple as no one saying what they knew.

How bizarre.

 

[webvan]

My assumption is that whether or not Floyd had the ability to keep up with team, by riding clean, was probably inconsequential. They probably had a mandate of sorts. You ride the Tour, we store your blood. Period.

Just my interpretation

Dunno, it's not like he was put on the program as soon as he was hired by USPS, I'm still a bit troubled by that part, it seems he came to the conclusion that it was ok to dope because of the "protection" and since LA was doing it he assumed he needed it. Maybe he, Landis, didn't need it if he was a better cyclist? Well he probably did given what happened to Ullrich a few years later, but still, I'm surprised Kimmage didn't dig in a bit deeper at that point.

Also for those saying he was paid a pittance, he did get paid $230,000 in 2004, not too shabby, what's strange is that earlier on in the interview he says he was getting paid $60,000 and was more useful than guys getting paid $800,000, something doesn't jive, and which "helper" was getting paid $800,000 at USPS in 2004 anyway?

 

[Anonymous]

Dunno, it's not like he was put on the program as soon as he was hired by USPS, I'm still a bit troubled by that part, it seems he came to the conclusion that it was ok to dope because of the "protection" and since LA was doing it he assumed he needed it. Maybe he, Landis, didn't need it if he was a better cyclist? Well he probably did given what happened to Ullrich a few years later, but still, I'm surprised Kimmage didn't dig in a bit deeper at that point.

Also for those saying he was paid a pittance, he did get paid $230,000 in 2004, not too shabby, what's strange is that earlier on in the interview he says he was getting paid $60,000 and was more useful than guys getting paid $800,000, something doesn't jive, and which "helper" was getting paid $800,000 at USPS in 2004 anyway?

I'm not sure that comment was limited to just USPS riders.

 

[flicker]

Does anyone know how many riders from Lances TDF teams are stil riding in the Protour level? how many, ( or few) have there reputation in tact?
Certainly ( to a paranoid sociapath) it might make sence that the sooner those that know the truth are away from the sport the better.
From that position besmurching there reputation any way possible begins to make sence.

or that the tests are easy to get past.
I don't know if this is something a lot of people here feel - that they just accept that even if Lance goes down, even if a load of guys are found out at the end of this, and even if McQuaid leaves somehow - that things will just stay pretty much the same. I feel naïve for saying it, but I think I'm accepting that now - cycling is a lost cause.
_________________luckyboy

The way I see it procycling is a circus on 2 wheels. I enjoy it for that. Guys wearing billboards on their backs and odd looking vehicles with blaring speakers throwing candy to children. People chasing the odd souvineer bindon.
No more no less.

Doping has always been a part of the sport, also corruption. Nice you folks have time and energy to change that.

 

[BotanyBay]

Floyd said:

I said ‘I’m not going to be part of this. I’m going to sit at the back’ and so I stayed at the back of the peloton until they brought Simeoni back. I thought it was stupid and I said what I thought – not because I like Simeoni or don’t like Simeoni – I just thought it was a foolish thing to do in the race. I said ‘There is no good explanation for this, I don’t want to be part of it.’ And no one said anything. I was the only one that ever spoke-up against Lance and if I thought something was wrong – and that was clearly wrong – I was going to say it.

And this is why Floyd tested positive. It might not have been this exact incident, but in my view, Floyd was not recognizing the political situation in which he sat, and it cost him dearly later on.

People that otherwise might have helped him out when his test came back, instead, chose to say "F**k him". I'll bet a phone call from "The Boss" could have made that test vanish.

I'm not saying the corruption is good or correct, but I think our small-town-boy is and always has been a bit too "small-town" to be at the top. Floyd just never understood the true nature of the game.

 

[webvan]

I still find it a bit hard to believe that the carbon isotype test found an 11:1 ratio when he said he didn't take any testosterone...is he still trying to "rationalize" his whole fight that cost him all he had?

 

[Sanitiser]

Unless he's trying to allude to Lance pulling some strings to get him caught or something.

 

[DirtyWorks]

What also amazes me about this whole unfolding saga is that the only thing that ever really kept this stuff from coming to light was...nobody ever said anything!

I mean, it really is that simple. Not one person from inside the USPS ranks was willing to lay it all on the line. The entire empire was protected by...nothing really. Just the faith, trust, belief in their powers of intimidation...whatever it was. Nothing real has ever protected Lance and Johan from this information coming out. Nothing.

I don't know about that. Most of these people desperately want to get paid to do *something* in the peloton. If they say anything, it is a career-ending move.

Career-wise, having your employer intentionally impairing your judgment by wearing you out before negotiating a contract is another glimpse into the sick thinking at Team Pharmstrong.

I can't believe how much these people tolerate for very, very little money.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I don't see Lance setting up Floyd's positive. I just don't. Out of everyone that left Postal and then popped positive, the only one I think who may have been set-up was Heras, as Liberty was under huge pressure at the time, and that likely had zero to do with Lance, and everything to do with Saiz vs. the UCI. Though like Floyd, Roberto was hot regardless.

 

[hrotha]

I still find it a bit hard to believe that the carbon isotype test found an 11:1 ratio when he said he didn't take any testosterone...is he still trying to "rationalize" his whole fight that cost him all he had?

That's one of the points where I still have trouble believing Landis, but it should be noted that he went out of his way to shoot down the transfusion theory, which I find telling because it would be perfect for him if it was plausible.

 

[Granville57]

Also for those saying he was paid a pittance, he did get paid $230,000 in 2004, not too shabby, what's strange is that earlier on in the interview he says he was getting paid $60,000 and was more useful than guys getting paid $800,000, something doesn't jive, and which "helper" was getting paid $800,000 at USPS in 2004 anyway?

That is a bit confusing. I took the $800,000 part to mean that he felt he was better than 'other top pros' who were probably making that much. The $60,000 to $230,000 discrepancy is a bit odd though. Typos? Not sure. Maybe he was paid $60,000 in his first year at USPS? I'll check his book. He may have covered that in there.

 

[thehog]

That is a bit confusing. I took the $800,000 part to mean that he felt he was better than 'other top pros' who were probably making that much. The $60,000 to $230,000 discrepancy is a bit odd though. Typos? Not sure. Maybe he was paid $60,000 in his first year at USPS? I'll check his book. He may have covered that in there.

He was referring that they were only offering a 60k increase not that he was paid 60,000.

 

[Digger]

Just finished it all. I feel drained. There were tears in my eyes for the last part.
It's all such a mess. I hope he gets a job outside of cycling and once the investigation is over, never looks back. He's too good and honest for cycling. I can't be bothered arguing with the Flickers of this world about him. He has paid enough of a price. Not easy to articulate, but that piece is bloody powerful, fascinating, troubling and sad. It's a f***ing tragedy and I just hope to God he gets some peace in the future. The pain leaps out of the words. Anyways that's my take on today. I shall leave it to the rest of yee to argue it out amongst yourselves.

 

[Anonymous]

downloadable copy up on pastebin as well now. So the text file can be downloaded for posterity.
poor old nyvelocity..

 

[DirtyWorks]

I still find it a bit hard to believe that the carbon isotype test found an 11:1 ratio when he said he didn't take any testosterone...is he still trying to "rationalize" his whole fight that cost him all he had?

Regardless of the test itself, It's clear he did not do exactly what the UCI or his DS wanted in some important situations like getting paid and petty race politics. It never mattered what the test results were. The only thing that matters is that Pat and Hein didn't want him around.

Could the test have been a false positive? Sure. Would a false positive have mattered inside the UCI? No. It was only a matter of time before there was a positive and the opportunity to fire FL for not being an obedient racer.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Cycling can be cleaned up, though not likely entirely, certainly to an extent. The problem really does stem at the UCI primarily, and the Hein-Pat coupling and all in that circle. They are as rotten as the US Congress. Followed by riders like Floyd and hopefully younger riders, speaking out.

I'd like to say that there's hope because if you look at FIS (skiing) while there are still doping issues in skiing, I'm mostly referring to cross-country, FIS has much more transparency, and uses more independent testing procedures. A few years ago US coach Justin Wadsworth made the almost casual claim that there was 100% doping in XC skiing - and if you look back to the 2002 Olympics it was as dirty as cycling ever could be. But FIS took situations like that seriously and by the last Olympics doping was by all counts way down. No, the sport wasn't clean. But definitely cleaner than it had been. I'd like to think if there's a full purge at the UCI, cycling could reach this level. I'll let you find links to 2002, FIS, and Wadsworth. They are easy to find.