Kimmage interviews Floyd Landis: Sunday Times + Bombshell NYVC transcript [merged]

[Susan Westemeyer]

Don't take offence.
At least no more than every pro cyclist who is also deemed immoral without evidence.
This is discussion about a Journalist and his subject. The validity of both participants is surely going to be questioned?

I am merely trying to keep this thread on topic. Discussion of Kimmage and Landis is on topic. Discussion of the general issue is not and must be pursued elsewhere.

Susan

 

[nevada]

Yep, agree with your comment. So the big question is did he dope before that? From the interview i get the impression he is saying that he never doped untill after the dauphinee, starting with the patch.

Of course.

 

[Ferminal]

So i still wonder, what made Landis think that without dope he wouldnt get on the team? And even if that was the case, why would he even choose for that?

When Landis made his claims it was said that he was introduced to doping by usp, and i got the impression it was a a bit forced on him/peer pressure,etc.. But after reading this it seems that he allready decided to take the dope without knowing if the team even did supply dope and even wanted him to dope.

The Euro pros he spoke too said it's what you do if you want to make it (more or less, I'm not sure how he describes his conversation with Van Petegem).

Landis made JB "aware" that he was willing to do whatever it takes. Landis didn't say "I want to dope, how can you help me". Of course that's if we take what we have read to be 100% correct which may not be the case.

Landis convinced himself morally that it was OK to go down the path he did. If JB didn't bring him in on the program then he probably would have actively sought it sooner or later (at least that's how I read it).

Btw I'm not familiar with that Dauphine but it seems like a lot of his time he got from a break, he wasn't as spectacular otherwise (10th on Ventoux, lower down in the TT etc).

 

[Granville57]

I bet he got at least a 5 figure sum for that interview.

That would be a figure of $10,000.00 minimum. That's patently absurd.

Journalists fo Kimmages calibre do not pay for interviews. That is tabloid journalism. Tabloids pay for exclusives. Kimmage is not going to pay for it as it undermines totally the interview.It is not done by reputable journalists.. Myth Period.

I don't understand that either. The carbon isotope test found an 11:1 ratio and proof that the sample had exogenous testosterone

The 11:1 T/E ratio was part of the first series of tests (and was remarkable due to it being so far off from all the others). The carbon isotope test was applied later which then indicated the presence of synthetic Testosterone. (Please jump in, python, if need be)

I get why JB would prefer to have him dope. An even better landis as helper for LA, and i could see them wanting all teammates to dope as well so that they would have an extra incentive to keep their mouth shut about lance and doping (boy did that backfire ).

That's a really interesting point, and one that I've always suspected. On top of the performance benefits, it means everyone now is "in the club." Harder to speak out when they've all joined in.

It also reminds me a quote from Vande Velde. He was suffering terribly from a tendon injury during his first Tour and didn't think he could continue to ride. Lance's reaction was, "You don't have a choice!" I think that speaks volumes to the pressure these guys were under. If you rode the Tour, you were fully "prepared."

In any given 7-hour interview, you'll be able to isolate and highlight inconsistencies or ambiguities, especially if you weren't there, but are only reading the transcript.
You will alsways find a 5% of ambiguity when you interview somebody. And an interview it was, not an interrogation.

EDTI: I admit that the odd elements are interesting for discussion. But to suggest that that brings down the interview in some way? nah..

Spot on.

 

[Francois the Postman]

To fair on Oscar he initially supported Landis. He changed his tune months later. The entire saga also destroyed Pereiro. He was never the same after that experience. He was the winner but not the winner. He wanted to claim the win but couldn’t claim the win. There were no winners in all of this.

Schleck is in the same weird spot now. At some point someone nails you to the floor and asks you directly if you feel the winner, if the other one stole it from you. And you have to answer one way or the other. Even if in your own mind would rather not.

You either claim the win, and can only do that by saying that Contador stole the Tour from you. Or you don't claim the win, saying that Contador is "still the winner to me".

If Schleck is clean, both stances are within the realm of human responses, but one takes quite a bit more mental "are you for real" leapfrogging.

If he is dirty too, there is no good way out, especially if you still have some sense of fairness and justice, which most people will still have, even in the warped world of institutionalised cheating ("I'd never do that").

You either refuse to claim the win, and insinuate that your hands are stained too, triggering a follow-up question that will never go away. Or you claim it, tell the audience you feel it was stolen from you. Which leaves the other rider, inevitably, feeling frustrated, and wronged. A sense of being thrown under the bus, a sense of being unfairly treated, by equal cheats. A sense of betrayal can leave a very deep cut.

If Pereiro was initially supportive of Landis, but caved after a while, it was probably because "he is still the winner to me" is a totally impossible position to hold. It raises issues that won't go away. Internally you might have peace with a spot that you feel does most "justice" to the other. But that pesky external world won't leave you in comfortable limbo. Not everyone can hold their preferred spot when the question mark over yourself keeps haunting you.

Let's see how Schleck will deal with it, over time.

Landis is interesting. He gives an interview in which he states how he was in a spot where you have to face the music one way or the other. And, in way, asks for understanding why you can say one thing that you'd rather not do, even if that backfires on others. And once on a path, how hard it is too step of it, before you have reached all its dead ends.

He finds it frustrating people carry grudges towards him. That they see him as a liar, a cheat. A dirty villain. When he feels he ain't that bad.

Yet he is very quick with the "**** him!" or "I won't make that mistake again". It is always more ****ty and hurtful to be at the receiving end of a (perceived) injustice, than to dish it out to others, I guess.

Confronted with his parents expectations, confronted with the question "did you dope". confronted with a spot where you tell it one way or the other, knowing the right one will cost you.... he chose to lie.

And now, he decides he doesn't want to lie. But he'd still do the same thing. It is still "me me me". I hope he can find a world in which he wouldn't do the same thing, for his sake. Or at least would not involve them, and do it all alone.

I once made a real wrong choice for what I felt were the right reasons. I have seen the hurt it triggered in others. I can't fathom how someone would be able to utter "I'd do it all again", after seen what price was also paid by others around him. I hope he finds the sort of peace that embraces others more.

Landis is still in this for himself. I don't mind that. Just don't get too caught up in a very gripping and human story, and no doubt an enigmatic character to many, without losing sight of that. We might be keen for someone to tell us that kind of story as frank as it seems. But he ain't doing this for us. Buyer beware. Still.

Some of that "me first" instinct is still alive and well, I'd argue, judging by the attitude he has to others who simply did exactly what he did. Although most of what he says is ringing true for me too. And I am certainly glad he is saying what he is saying.

 

[Granville57]

Schleck is in the same weird spot now. At some point someone nails you to the floor and asks you directly if you feel the winner, if the other one stole it from you. And you have to answer one way or the other. Even if in your own mind would rather not.

And I would imagine that the financial pressures are tremendous as well. With the prize money at stake, and the fact that everyone on the team benefits from that money, who knows what pressures Andy or Oscar may be faced with. Team owners, UCI, whoever...they may want, suggest, or even demand certain statements be made in order to release the prize money.

Landis is interesting...He finds it frustrating people carry grudges towards him. That they see him as a liar, a cheat. A dirty villain. When he feels he ain't that bad.

Yet he is very quick with the "**** him!" or "I won't make that mistake again". It is always more ****ty and hurtful to be at the receiving end of a (perceived) injustice, than to dish it out to others, I guess.

I believe that his position is that he is angry with those that knowingly lie in the attempt to discredit him, whereas his own harsh statements are directed towards those who perpetuate the problem. Even when he came out aggressively towards Mr. Pound, he was correct that Pound's behavior was inappropriate for someone in his position (regardless of whether of not Floyd doped).

And now, he decides he doesn't want to lie. But he'd still do the same thing.

I can't fathom how someone would be able to utter "I'd do it all again", after seen what price was also paid by others around him.

This has been raised by others in the forum as well. But let's look at that. I think what Floyd is saying is: after riding, finishing, and winning the TdF; standing on the podium; taking the victory lap on the Champs...after having experienced the intense grandeur of such an event and the experience of winning it, How could he not want to do that again? He feels that only a doper was going to win anyway. Having accepted that (and yes, that is the flaw in all of this when compared with Bassons) he is simply saying that such an once-in-a-lifetime experience would be worth repeating.

The damage that was done to those closest to him was mostly the result of what happened afterwards. I think he means it somewhat in a fantasy sense. Win the Tour, then stand up and say, "Yeah, I cheated. I've always cheated. The entire system is corrupt to the core. Now F_Off!"

As has also been previously stated, more complex emotional issues like this are difficult to extract from just the written word. I think you'd have to be in the room with Floyd to fully appreciate what he's suggesting by all that.

 

[Anonymous]

It doesn't take much to make Millar look a tool. He only has to open his mouth.

But it does make Wiggins, Millar and all the other 'clean' riders who have put the boot into Landis look like bigger tools than usual.

Sadly I am finding myself agreeing with this one. I have no understanding as to why someone like Wiggins would defend lance, when If wiggins is clean, then it is likely that Armstrong denied him a rightful podium in the Tour in 2009.

Just had a minor rant at Brads wife who was on a Floyd bashing run. Raised with her that the possibility of brad having a podium taken off of him should make her angry at Lance, not Floyd. Needless to say she was dismissive.

From this I can only draw one sad conclusion.

 

[bobbins]

Sadly I am finding myself agreeing with this one. I have no understanding as to why someone like Wiggins would defend lance, when If wiggins is clean, then it is likely that Armstrong denied him a rightful podium in the Tour in 2009.

Just had a minor rant at Brads wife who was on a Floyd bashing run. Raised with her that the possibility of brad having a podium taken off of him should make her angry at Lance, not Floyd. Needless to say she was dismissive.

From this I can only draw one sad conclusion.

The whole Landis interview makes pretty sad and depressing reading and then to read this coming from a self appointed Sky and by association Wiggins fanatic just about sums up what fans are feeling right now.

Wiggins wife having a go was very strange, it struck me as the words of a wife scared that her husbands huge salary was under threat.

I just wish that one of the major sponsors such as Sky, SaxoBank, Garmin etc would come out and say that they are sick of the UCI and they are out of the sport if things don't improve.

That won't happen because they are told by their team management that the likes of Kimmage and Landis are talking rubbish and things aren't really as bad as they are making out.

 

[BotanyBay]

I think he understood it (as the apology to Hein discusses this at length), but he wasn't going to let it dictate his career and behaviour. Perhaps he didn't realise how strong it really was.

I don't think he understood how those politics would come back to kick his a**. These politics are strong.

 

[luckyboy]

That would be a figure of $10,000.00 minimum. That's patently absurd.

nyvelocity: @ednl Just confirmed with Kimmage, Floyd wasn't paid for the interview.

 

[BotanyBay]

Bazaar Voice / Public Strategies / Fabiani Talking Point #8

Thanks, Polish, for continuing to establish ever new and creative rationalizations for how it was OK for Lance to operate with impunity during his 7 year voyage in winning Le Tour.

Evolving now to the point where the sheer "safety" of how "they" merits recognition and applause.

I cannot fathom where your psychological gymnastics will take you when you are faced with mounting the balance beam of justice during the oncoming indictment and subsequent trial.

The Livestrong Family will sit on street corners outside the courthouse with bare feet, handing-out wristbands, some of them carving the number 7 onto their foreheads. The message will shift to that of their oppressed God fighting the cancer-lovers.

 

[Anonymous]

The whole Landis interview makes pretty sad and depressing reading and then to read this coming from a self appointed Sky and by association Wiggins fanatic just about sums up what fans are feeling right now.

Wiggins wife having a go was very strange, it struck me as the words of a wife scared that her husbands huge salary was under threat.

I just wish that one of the major sponsors such as Sky, SaxoBank, Garmin etc would come out and say that they are sick of the UCI and they are out of the sport if things don't improve.

That won't happen because they are told by their team management that the likes of Kimmage and Landis are talking rubbish and things aren't really as bad as they are making out.

+1

I had the same thought.

Of the women I've known, the idea of running out of money or severe financial hardship rock them to the core.

Not a blanket statement.... just an observation.

 

[luckyboy]

What did she say?

 

[BotanyBay]

Most of Floyd's "defense fund" was coming from the wealthy "associates" of Weisel and that ilk. So I have do problem completely dismissing Johan on this one. He failed to mention whether or not "they" gave Floyd any money. Which they did.

I love it. Hush money. Hush money that didn't keep it hushed. I love seeing bad guys waste their money in a failed attempt at controlling a situation.

Really, God bless Fabiani in some respects. He's slowly bleeding Lance dry. The faster he does it, the faster the truth comes to light. I just hope it's not being paid with LAF dollars.

 

[BotanyBay]

It's easier than we might think. Most national federations have few voting delegates at annual meetings to elect the president. 20-30 people in Canada can change the president. Only 40-odd national federations vote for UCI president. Get 20- or 30 european and nor am countries to support a regime change, and you can change the whole sport.

You don't need any of the groups above. Just find the delegates, convince them to give their support. If necessary, find the people that vote for the voters. It's up to us, not someone else.

Remember that McQuaid won it by actually making trips. The guy campaigned. He traded horses with the voters.

 

[stainlessguy1]

20? Guess the year:

"Veel betrokkenen hebben jarenlang toegekeken hoe de doping de wielersport aanvrat als een dodelijke kankervlek. Niet alleen renners maar vooral die parasieten zijn er de oorzaak van dat de wielersport wordt beschouwd als de dopingsport bij uitstek en dat het publiek de rug keert naar de atleten op de fiets."
Many of those involved [with cycling] have witnessed for years how doping has been eating away like a deadly cancer. Not just the riders, but especially the parasites are the reason why cycling is seen as the doping sport bar none, and why the public is turning its back to the athletes on their bike.

Rider comment:
"Dat ze ons met rust laten. Als dat zo doorgaat is binnen drie jaar de hele wielersport naar de bliksem. Er zullen er nog meer moeten stoppen."
They should leave us alone. If it continues like this, the sport of cycling will have gone belly up within 3 years."


It was written by Karel van Assche, author of "Dossier Doping". The rider was Jan Janssen. The book by the Belgian journalist was written in 1967.

Inspired by Simpson's death, exposing the corruption and spread of doping that was rife even then. Anquetil had won Liege Bastogne Liege the year before. He gave a positive urine sample. He was dethroned. Briefly. And then reinstated. There was too much at stake. It showed how complex the interaction between riders, team owners, sponsors, national organisations and press was.

Different era, different names, same story.

Except, indeed, it was a kitchen sink science then, it is space era technology now, with infinately more potent "doop".

I am sorry , i am a few posts behind , but this was a good post .
I suppose if you go back far enough you might just conclude that everyone would have to give back their victories , once you start demanding that our currant stars give back their victories because of doping .
Considering the time line and the massive investation of the dope through the years . The question still remains < What do we do now ?>
So do we push for a fresh start in the UCI , or do we keep doing this for generations to come ?
I have read countless of good posts from every conceivable angle , and everyone quoting this or that , but no one really tackling the real problem .
It seams everyone is an expert on who what when , what race etc . what was said and personal condemnations of everysort regarding the athletes and also against the people on this site .
Countless of opinions , but what do we do now?
Does anyone actually want to clean up the sport ?
I think someone should do a poll regarding those on this forum that want to clean up the sport , vs. those that want to legalize doping . Only with a twist . It must show the handle when you vote .
That might put some perspective on whether or not there is even a chance that this sport will ever clean up . Since there is a government formula regarding polls it can be applied over a broad range of population .

 

[BotanyBay]

So Floyd spews a story to a sympathetic journalist about him being all sweet and innocent - just wanting to race, being forced into taking drugs and misled by 'cycling culture' and you just all swallow it hook-line-and-sinker?

Rather, the truth is Floyd realized he could not win on his talents alone and chose to dope to improve his chances. Nobody else enters into the equation, whatever he says, he is guilty, but he continues to not accept full responsibility and so this saga continues. Floyd would love you all to believe that he was the last person in the peleton to dope, but then he was one of the first to get an unfortunate positive. Oh how very inconvenient.

Whatever the 'truth', Floyd got caught doping, he chose to dope, it was his choice, his responsibility, his shame and the end of his career. I feel sorry for Floyd, I think he feels genuine shame for what he did, we all have personal responsibility for our actions, we can't blame other people or achieve absolution by pointing out that everybody else was wrong also. Maybe some people slipped though the net as appears very likely, but going back and trying to prove that the holes in the net were too large is a fool's game and not one that will ever make Floyd feel better about himself.

What is your motive here, junior member?

 

[BotanyBay]

Yes, exactly, funny some people still play the "he lied then and he's lying now" card.
.

And what they fail to account for is that one of stories is true. They need to declare which one it is.

 

[Granville57]

And what they fail to account for is that one of stories is true. They need to declare which one it is.

Which raises an interesting point that Johan & Lance will have to face: If Floyd and other teammates have admitted to doping while on USPS--and they have--then at the very least, mustn't they acknowledge that their TdF victories were assisted by a doped-up team? I mean, this is a "team" sport after all, is it not, Lance?

Unless of course JV, Frankie and Floyd are all lying. That would then mean that they did not dope. Is that really a game that the StrongArm crew wants to play? For the sheer entertainment of it all, I hope so.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

<snipped for brevity>

And now, he decides he doesn't want to lie. But he'd still do the same thing. It is still "me me me". I hope he can find a world in which he wouldn't do the same thing, for his sake. Or at least would not involve them, and do it all alone.

I once made a real wrong choice for what I felt were the right reasons. I have seen the hurt it triggered in others. I can't fathom how someone would be able to utter "I'd do it all again", after seen what price was also paid by others around him. I hope he finds the sort of peace that embraces others more.

Thats the whole point.

He does not regret the doping, he regrets the lie.

He has said that from his first interviews back in May - in this interview he explains how he came to the decision after having worked out the sport, discussing it with his wife, his best friend, his teammates and others.
It was (for him) either cheat or be cheated.

This also explains why he could not take the JV option of a partial confession - his regret was having to lie (in particular to his Mother) and if he confessed without making a full confession it would still be a lie.

 

[thehog]

Just had a minor rant at Brads wife who was on a Floyd bashing run. Raised with her that the possibility of brad having a podium taken off of him should make her angry at Lance, not Floyd. Needless to say she was dismissive.

From this I can only draw one sad conclusion.

Can you transcribe the twit rant?

I don't follow it. Would love to see what it was. Well done for comforting it.

 

[flicker]

What is your motive here, junior member?

Whoever that poster was, who said Floyd has not taken full responability for his infractions is correct. Remember 12 days ago Floyd said to legalize doping.

Floyd is cynical about all the issues, I do not blame him. To think he has had an epiphany and walk the straight and narrow from here on in is dilusional.

Something in his upbringing tweeked him and allowed him to go against the morals of his Mennonite upbringing.

A man like Kimmage can help Floyd come to the surface and reveal his inner demons, I guess it is healthy for Floyd to stand on a soapbox and reveal some(but) not all of his infractions. I do not understand why he includes others in his misery, but my read is misery loves company.

Loose lips sink ships, I think Floyd and Paul Kimmage have a full comprehension of that.

I do not get pleasure from hearing these things but, at this point Floyd has made the transition to" It is not about the bike."

It is now all about Floyd. Floyd finally learned from his mentor, a certain Mr. Lance Armstrong, that" it is all about me."

No one forced Floyd to do what he has done. He will never walk the straight and narrow again, if he ever did in his life.

 

[Anonymous]

Can you transcribe the twit rant?

I don't follow it. Would love to see what it was. Well done for comforting it.

23rd Jan
cath: I reserve severe profanity for occasions such as this,for which I apologise,but Landis,you are a vindictive poisonous little ****.There.
I shan't be swearing again severely,instead I shall christen the dogs' turds as Floyds, or Landii. Can't decide.
little cretin accused Brad of cheating.I'm not wasting any more time thinking about the vile little lying ***.

31st Jan
cath: I don't love him, I wish the little rat would go away

dim:but things arent going to change for the better as long as we continue to hide the past and pretend doping isnt an issue :/
maybe floyd isnt the best way to do it, but something needs to be done. Surely the truth coming out and the dopers being chucked out of cycling will benefit the clean riders... Wont it. Doesnt brad feel ****ed that hes lost races to cheats? Surely if armstrong doped in 2009 then he took a podium place off of your husband? I was in Paris that day. If Lance doped then the fans and @bradwiggins had the joy of a british podium taken from them
Im ****ing angry now. Surely the clean riders, their families and the fans should want the truth to come out! Going for a cup of tea. :/

cath: Seriously? Oh my ****ing GOD you were in Paris that day? You must be feeling awful now I can't imagine.

dim:just saying. If landis is telling the truth shouldnt the anger be directed at lance and other dopers. im shutting up now.

 

[hfer07]

I read it last night and I have to say I really liked the approach of Kimmage on this interview-because it wasn't about LA-it was about Floyd Landis and his entire transition throughout Pro cycling-and honestly-details about his personal life that I wasn't aware of. What I liked the most is to finally hear from the real Landis, without the mask, without any compromises & without the fear of being antagonized by his past-this is the story of his life in his own words, his personal experience & his point of view of what the state of the sport stands from back then to now. Perhaps some folks here were hoping to hear more dirt on LA, and I might wanted too, but when I submerged into the story, I realized how important is also to hear that parallel information and understand how things unfold during the Postal/Disco days from Landis point of view. I'm inclined to believe he kept details uncovered due to the ongoing investigation, which is the prudent way to do it, but overall he gave us a new set of eyes for what once was secret or rather, mere rumors.....
endless thanks to Landis for his valiant actions & determination to tell his story & Kimmage also for helping to get the facts out to the public

 

[BotanyBay]

Whoever that poster was, who said Floyd has not taken full responability for his infractions is correct. Remember 12 days ago Floyd said to legalize doping.

I do not often agree with you, but this we can consider common ground. Floyd is still living in "victim land". He does not understand the big picture that fraud and dishonesty is what got him bounced onto the rock-bottom. He thinks he's the victim of a "thrown under bus" accident. He thinks there is honor among thieves.

And the sad part is, he's still a thief. He says he'd do it the same way all over again.

I don't think he should go back to his Mennonite town. He's not worldly enough to hang with them. He doesn't understand right from wrong.