Kimmage interviews Floyd Landis: Sunday Times + Bombshell NYVC transcript [merged]

[JMBeaushrimp]

Wow!

I'm a little off the back responding to this - had to let the transcript percolate for a bit, and then read through fifty pages of comments...

In between the posters who want to cannonize Flandis and those who want to vilify him, are some very intelligent comments that point to the true nature of the doping problem in cycling.

While I certainly admire Floyd for his honest answers in the interview, I'm not one to hold him up to sainthood (St. Floyd of the Flaming End?). But neither will I disparage him endlessly. What he has done (and Kimmage, to his credit), is something NO OTHER rider with his palmares has done.

He has intelligently and methodically told an accurate accounting of how deeply entrenched (and sadly, how 'normalized') doping is in cycling. More importantly, he has revealed that this entrenchment is not only within the structure of the teams but right up to the top tiers of the governing bodies.

What this has done is not only reveal the prevelance of corruption within the sport, but also the almost utter uselessness of any UCI mandated testing program. This does the double duty of not only questioning the UCI protocols, but questioning the results themselves. It puts the denials of dopers getting popped for PEDs they swear they weren't on in an entirely different light. Management and control through doctored testing? I wouldn't put anything past the UCI...

It also puts into question the efficacy of being 'hard on doping' via the suspension of individual riders. There is a lot of chatter about how Floyd 'chose the path', 'made his own decisions', 'has no one to blame but himself', etc etc. As this transcript shows (and as anyone who has had any life in pro cycling knows) this is a patently simplistic view. By the time a rider is approaching Pro Tour level, they will already know what the game is. It's not secret, it's the way it is.

I'm not suggesting testing be eliminated - I am an extreme proponent of clean cycling. I am saying that the testing has to removed from the UCI, and the penalties for positives need to be felt by the entire team. Pull the team's license for a month, ensure dirty doctors are removed from the sport, ensure dirty DSs can't get a UCI license, etc. The point is to make it financially painful for the enablers. It's a fallacy to think that riders are doing this systemic type of doping on their own.

Is Floyd a hero? Probably to some people, and probably a cheating rat-b*stard to a bunch of people as well. Either way, his disclosure is going to do a lot more to help clean up cycling than anything that has happened in a long while.

Makes JV's chest-thumping sound a little hollow, doesn't it?

 

[thehog]

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Note: I understood what you were doing, but you ought to know that politics are not allowed here.

 

[thehog]

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Note: I understood what you were doing, but you ought to know that politics are not allowed here.

a hog with lipstick?

 

[mewmewmew13]

++1 jmbeaushrimp.

 

[Angliru]

You really need to study the whole picture of cycling and sport. My view is International and promoting the sport. I want to promote cycling, not rubbish it as it has been done in Germany.

Gus like Simeoni and Landis are lesser riders. Also retired. They are not Cancellera, Gilbert, Schleck etc.

Now please ask Cancellera, Gilbert and Schleck to take a stand.

Using your logic, we should only pay attention when a rider with a decent palmares speaks up, otherwise treat them the way LA treated Simeoni.

 

[MacRoadie]

Using your logic, we should only pay attention when a rider with a decent palmares speaks up, otherwise treat them the way LA treated Simeoni.

Well, unless they're a three-time Tour winner and multiple World Champion...

 

[Colm.Murphy]

++1 jmbeaushrimp.

+2

Agree.

This is, and will continue to be, one of the most important stories about sports and humanity in modern times, given the cast of characters and the far reaching consequences likely to arise in the inevitable dismantling of a "Demi-God" like Lance Armstrong.

It touches so many societal points and offers so much insight about human weaknesses and desire, there will be a sweeping lesson to be learned from all of this.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Sorry Darryl I guess the pro cycling I have been watching for 40 years from Europe here in the states is a different sport than the one you all have been watching in Europe. Different feed, perhaps a different sattelite.

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Thank you.

 

[Hugh Januss]

++1 jmbeaushrimp.

That is it exactly.
UCI out of the testing business.
Any DS or Doctor with links to doping out of the sport.
Punish teams as much or more than individuals.
Then and only then come down very hard on riders who still try to dope.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

That is it exactly.
UCI out of the testing business.
Any DS or Doctor with links to doping out of the sport.
Punish teams as much or more than individuals.
Then and only then come down very hard on riders who still try to dope.

Exactly!

The admiration of the quasi-martyr needs to stop (I'm thinking of Zable getting an ovation in Germany after his tepid admition).

Ther riders are not the ignorant cheaters that the semi-knowledgable like to paint them as. They are part of a system that ultimately uses them - and they do get used and thrown away. I find it a whole lot more sad than enraging.

Great idea about driving it home to the teams, as an initial step, and then following it up with hammering the riders.

Give the riders a chance before burning it wholesale...

 

[flicker]

Using your logic, we should only pay attention when a rider with a decent palmares speaks up, otherwise treat them the way LA treated Simeoni.

What I am saying is the sport needs to be cleaned up from the bottom up.

The little guys, say jrs. are going to look up to Cancellera, Shleck Gilbert.

I guess what I am saying is we need to let these kids know that they can compete in a clean environment. It all gets twisted up though because in competition everyone wants an edge.

So yes I want to see role models for the kids. I do not like all the negativity.

 

[Nederick]

++1 jmbeaushrimp.

Good Post JMB. A few years back when there was rumblings about Evans team pursing for damages (when he was denied a tour stage victory in an ITT? Schumacker?), I thought this could be an interesting avenue in which to flush out doping, and especially team doping. That kind of went flat pretty quickly. I really can't see how this sport can be fixed, much as I'd love it to be. I think Landis has done his bit and should move on. He's been chewed up and spat right out the back. Just another victim of ours, the fans, who prop up this sport by tuning in and watching..

 

[BotanyBay]

What I am saying is the sport needs to be cleaned up from the bottom up.

The little guys, say jrs. are going to look up to Cancellera, Shleck Gilbert.

I guess what I am saying is we need to let these kids know that they can compete in a clean environment. It all gets twisted up though because in competition everyone wants an edge.

So yes I want to see role models for the kids. I do not like all the negativity.

The juniors identified as "talented" were handed-over to guys like Eddie B, Carmichael, etc, which led to Och and others.

Those "bad guy" team DS / Owners, etc... they need to be banished immediately.

 

[flicker]

The juniors identified as "talented" were handed-over to guys like Eddie B, Carmichael, etc, which led to Och and others.

Those "bad guy" team DS / Owners, etc... they need to be banished immediately.

True, but you are only mentioning a few 'North Americans'

On a global scale I do not see you averting these types of individuals.

I see Tex-Pats', Darryls' and maybe if I could speak for him, Mr. Obree of protecting individuals especially young people from doping.

That of course would mean keeping cycling on an amateur level.

 

[webvan]

That is it exactly.
UCI out of the testing business.
Any DS or Doctor with links to doping out of the sport.
Punish teams as much or more than individuals.
Then and only then come down very hard on riders who still try to dope.

Exactly, but isn't it strange that neither Lelangue or Rihs's (now in charge of Evans the only top GT rider who's thought to be clean) role was discussed during the Kimmage interview. I find it extraordinary that Kimmage didn't ask Landis whether Lelangue new about the programe and whether Rihs's had indeed paid up €90,000 as disclosed in last year's emails.

Obviously Lelangue had to know since Landis said he knew that Pereiro doped in 2005 when he was on Phonak.

So question not asked ? Question edited out?...

On a Phonak related matter, can't remember where I read that yesterday, but an article pointed out that Landis only became the leader of Phonak because Hamilton got busted...so Landis wasn't leaving to be a leader, just like Livingston did in 2000.

 

[Mambo95]

Is Floyd a hero? Probably to some people, and probably a cheating rat-b*stard to a bunch of people as well. Either way, his disclosure is going to do a lot more to help clean up cycling than anything that has happened in a long while.

Makes JV's chest-thumping sound a little hollow, doesn't it?

I agree with most of what I deleted, but not so much with the bit I kept.

I know many on here have it in for Vaughters, but personally, I believe in him. And unlike Landis, he's in a position of influence, and as such has a platform to push for change. Landis is only of consequence to Armstrong, Bruyneel et al, and cycling in North America, not the sport as a whole. (Almost everything he said about corruption at the UCI was told to him by Armstrong, so who knows how true it is).

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I agree with most of what I deleted, but not so much with the bit I kept.

I know many on here have it in for Vaughters, but personally, I believe in him. And unlike Landis, he's in a position of influence, and as such has a platform to push for change. Landis is only of consequence to Armstrong, Bruyneel et al, and cycling in North America, not the sport as a whole. (Almost everything he said about corruption at the UCI was told to him by Armstrong, so who knows how true it is).

I've had to deal with the UCI, and more than a few federations, in my past. Unfortunately this makes Landis's disclosure ring particularly true to me, and obviously colours my interpretation of JV et al.

A perfect example of this is that rather than seeing JV as being in a position of influence, I see him in a position to be influenced.

The current environment and make up of the governors of the sport means that he is massively outmanned and outgunned.

Unfortunately, I can only view JV (and his continual stream of non-comments) as playing politics. A single team is not going to be able to effect the change I'd like to see...

 

[Mambo95]

Unfortunately, I can only view JV (and his continual stream of non-comments) as playing politics. A single team is not going to be able to effect the change I'd like to see...

He's not just one team. He's the chairman of the AIGCP. And so what if he plays a little politics, that's the way to effect change - from within. Idealistic outsiders rarely make any impact unless it's through bloody revolution (and that's not going to happen). And even then they usually turn out to be even worse.

 

[BotanyBay]

I've had to deal with the UCI, and more than a few federations, in my past. Unfortunately this makes Landis's disclosure ring particularly true to me, and obviously colours my interpretation of JV et al.

A perfect example of this is that rather than seeing JV as being in a position of influence, I see him in a position to be influenced.

The current environment and make up of the governors of the sport means that he is massively outmanned and outgunned.

Unfortunately, I can only view JV (and his continual stream of non-comments) as playing politics. A single team is not going to be able to effect the change I'd like to see...

I think JV is an experiment. The UCI is playing multiple angles to see what's working and what's not. One angle is the BioPassport. Another is "Clean racing". Sorta like building a moat (with crocodiles) on the Mexican border, meanwhile you're handing out Medical Marijuana with government money, just to see what works better.

I think JV's been given an "in". So long as he plays ball and holds to the script, he's OK and allowed to earn. But make no mistake, if he one day says "screw it" and starts talking in a frank manner, that's it. He's cooked. It'll be over for him. They'll throw him and his riders under the bus.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

He's not just one team. He's the chairman of the AIGCP. And so what if he plays a little politics, that's the way to effect change - from within. Idealistic outsiders rarely make any impact unless it's through bloody revolution (and that's not going to happen). And even then they usually turn out to be even worse.

He IS just one team. He's president of a group that works to protect the rights of the pro teams. I agree that his being on the inside of that group is a good thing, I'm only arguing he would be more influential if his voice wasn't the only one in the forest.

Even in the AIGCP he's outmanned. There aren't a lot of other DSs and managers calling out for clean cycling, there are a lot (on the other hand) with personal doping histories and continued sketchy behaviour...

 

[MD FACG FACP]

Sorry Darryl I guess the pro cycling I have been watching for 40 years from Europe here in the states is a different sport than the one you all have been watching in Europe. Different feed, perhaps a different sattelite.

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Interesting pro cycling on TV in America in 1971.

Remember confess you are scum.
Lie you are wonderful.

 

[petethedrummer]

What I am saying is the sport needs to be cleaned up from the bottom up.

The little guys, say jrs. are going to look up to Cancellera, Shleck Gilbert.

I guess what I am saying is we need to let these kids know that they can compete in a clean environment. It all gets twisted up though because in competition everyone wants an edge.

So yes I want to see role models for the kids. I do not like all the negativity.

You seem to have alot of trouble putting together a coherent argument.

You want the sport to be cleaned up (from the bottom up?) and don't like the negativity. But it is patently obvious the UCI is corrupt. And the only way the UCI will ever clean its act up is through sustained negative PUBLIC pressure. And it should be cleaned from the top down not bottom up.

So lets say you had your way and the negativity stops; Kimmage, Landis, Lemond and Walsh move on to something else. Do you think Pat McQuaid would clean up the sport?

Do you think some amateur grassroots behinds the scenes cycling movement is going to do it?

Give us all a break will you?

 

[Mambo95]

He IS just one team. He's president of a group that works to protect the rights of the pro teams. I agree that his being on the inside of that group is a good thing, I'm only arguing he would be more influential if his voice wasn't the only one in the forest.

Even in the AIGCP he's outmanned. There aren't a lot of other DSs and managers calling out for clean cycling, there are a lot (on the other hand) with personal doping histories and continued sketchy behaviour...

Well those teams voted for him to put their views forward. They could have gone with someone with a softer position (and less intelligent).

I think it's fair to say that a lot of DSs have personal doping history (including Vaughters), but that doesn't mean they want to carry on that way. I'm sure they all would have preferred not have had to dope and maybe some see an opportunity to push things in the right direction.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Well those teams voted for him to put their views forward. They could have gone with someone with a softer position (and less intelligent).

I think it's fair to say that a lot of DSs have personal doping history (including Vaughters), but that doesn't mean they want to carry on that way. I'm sure they all would have preferred not have had to dope and maybe some see an opportunity to push things in the right direction.

He makes perfect sense for the position - intelligent, articulate, and outspoken about how the doping situation and the UCI is improving. Whether it is or not...

I just can't help feeling that he comes accross as a bit of a PR schill, and that the other DSs need their feet held to the fire to actually change. This group is not going to do it on their own.

 

[flicker]

Interesting pro cycling on TV in America in 1971.

Remember confess you are scum.
Lie you are wonderful.

Of course we had a few news flashes in living B+W. And of course international cycle sport Mirror du cycsime etc. Plus quite an few tifosi around north beach SF. Kinda old but they had some good stories. + 1 six day rider who rode in madison square garden . Long goneRIP.

Can I have my free therapy session now sir?