Kimmage unleashes hell, counter-sues Verbruggen & McQuaid

[Dr. Maserati]

Stay tuned everybody and step away from your keyboards. Less is more as the likelihood of being deemed an idiot based on prior posts is increasing rapidly....

What?
Why should anyone "step away" from their keyboards?

If you have information then step up - don't step back.
There are legitimate concerns over the fund that could and should have been addressed promptly by Aaron - people have every right to discuss it.

It's been fun watching Marky Mark start a hole then dig it deeper, but the numbers are close enough to being explainable that I can see this thing turning out to be much ado about nothing, just a misunderstanding between parties.

I considered that too, but if it is a legitimate tax concern then why not furnish the financial statement to Kimmage on Saturday?

 

[hiero2]

Don't take this as being defensive:

I put my money where my mouth is.

I would be more than happy to donate again, even if only 9/10th of my donation made it through and helped cause change.

That would be a far better guarantee of a meaningful contribution than 9/10th of my posts.

Having thousands of posts on this and other cycling forums, yes, I guess I am a cycling fan even if I am NOT a fan of Nein, Phat or Dopestrong.

Dave.

For this post alone, I would call you friend. Well said. Doing SOMETHING is better than doing nothing. And, when you have no more effective options available, marginal gains may be the best you can do. (Sorry, couldn't resist! )

 

[Jethro_A]

Twitter is the best link I can give you.

Thanks, will do. Hopefully he'll see it. That's like shouting into a cave sometimes so I thought someone here might be able to pass along the sentiments.

 

[Samson777]

For this post alone, I would call you friend. Well said. Doing SOMETHING is better than doing nothing. And, when you have no more effective options available, marginal gains may be the best you can do. (Sorry, couldn't resist! )

This one got me laughing pretty hard

 

[Navigator]

I've defended Lesli, and will continue to do so whatever the numbers end up being and feel no idiocy for doing so. What I do see however are lots of promises that the numbers are forthcoming, and no numbers seem to show up. This pattern is repeating. Lets hope it doesn't repeat for long.

There is a reason that the number one thing they tell you in ethics classes in school is that when you have fiduciary responsibility to someone over an account, you'd better account to the penny regularly. Good people do things with other people's money intending to make everything okay all the time. Problems arise when the day to make everything okay comes earlier than you anticipated...

Not saying that is what happened, but continued promises of money showing up for several days looks like a stalling tactic to me, but I hope it isn't.

Are you saying the entire Kimmage fund could depend on the outcome of a horse race tomorrow?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Are you saying the entire Kimmage fund could depend on the outcome of a horse race tomorrow?

Or even worse, gold futures.

 

[Ferminal]

Wiggins Giro shore thing.

 

[MarkvW]

Don't take this as being defensive:

I put my money where my mouth is.

I would be more than happy to donate again, even if only 9/10th of my donation made it through and helped cause change.

That would be a far better guarantee of a meaningful contribution than 9/10th of my posts.

Having thousands of posts on this and other cycling forums, yes, I guess I am a cycling fan even if I am NOT a fan of Nein, Phat or Dopestrong.

Dave.

I didn't see Kimmage as a cycling thing (for which I wouldn't spend a dime), but more as a case where the little guy was being abused by a more powerful and corrupt organization. That's what got me to give.

If I could toss the UCI into bankruptcy tomorrow, and all the pro riders into unemployment, I would do it in a heartbeat. But I can't, so I just enjoy the corrupt joke that is pro cycling.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Is there a way to get a message to Paul to let him know that those of us with any reading comprehension still support him and hold him completely harmless in this? And I'd donate again if needed too.

Sure, I will help.

If you just send me your financial account number and passwords too I will pass along your donation without you having to go through the hassle.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I didn't see Kimmage as a cycling thing (for which I wouldn't spend a dime), but more as a case where the little guy was being abused by a more powerful and corrupt organization. That's what got me to give.

If I could toss the UCI into bankruptcy tomorrow, and all the pro riders into unemployment, I would do it in a heartbeat. But I can't, so I just enjoy the corrupt joke that is pro cycling.

Tell you what, I will send you the $1.50 you gave the fund (if you even gave anything...we all know if you did, it was so you could have some cover here) and you can go crawl back into your hole.

I think we would all be much happier with that arrangement.

 

[Jethro_A]

Sure, I will help.

If you just send me your financial account number and passwords too I will pass along your donation without you having to go through the hassle.

I uploaded cash to this post. You'll have to print it out though.

 

[peterst6906]

Either way, you're a bit of a coward to post a lie and them PM me and tell me you can't prove your lie, and still not come here and admit you are a liar.

Hey, you wake-up in your shoes...

I replied to a PM from you. No lie in my post at all and if you can't understand it, then you might want to prepare to be a perpetual student as the court room seems a tad of an overreach.

So to use one of your own posts (directed a Atjaectest a while back):

If you don't want to be called out on your BS, don't post BS. It will save me the trouble of responding to your BS

So, two pieces of BS:

1. you're a defender of women attacked on the forum
2. I sent you a PM. I only replied to your PM, you initiated it.

So you should man up and admit to being a liar (especially the bit that I PM'd you and told you I couldn't prove it - that is nothing but a lie plain and simple. I wrote nothing of the sort in the reply to the PM you sent me). Actually no need, it's evident to anyone that wants to look. Here's the PM:

*PM redacted by mod*

As for this issue, PM is probably the most appropriate place for it as your BS doesn't relate to the topic.

 

[gooner]

Tell you what, I will send you the $1.50 you gave the fund (if you even gave anything...we all know if you did, it was so you could have some cover here) and you can go crawl back into your hole.

I think we would all be much happier with that arrangement.

Hold on a second.

You're out of order now.

It doesn't matter if a guy gave $1.50 or $20 to the fund, a person contributed and should be thanked for it no matter what the size of the sum it is. But to suggest someone may have contributed to have some cover around here from the likes of you is frankly absurd, disrespectful and insulting. This was all for Kimmage, so don't flatter yourself and think people may have contributed because of what you and others around here might think of them if they didn't do so. That would be the last reason anyone would part with their money here.

Nothing suggests to me that Lesli is at fault either by what has been disclosed so far and MarkW was wrong and too hasty in his initial criticism of her in all this(nevertheless that doesn't give you the right to be dismissive of someone's contribution and make fun of it either). But you criticise him for jumping to conclusions in his criticism of her and yet you seem to be jumping to conclusions yourself by suggesting he may have contributed to give himself cover around here. Since you like to dish out the questions how about answering this one. How did you come to the conclusion that MarkW contributed for the very reason you suggest above?

 

[Digger]

Hold on a second.

You're out of order now.

It doesn't matter if a guy gave $1.50 or $20 to the fund, a person contributed and should be thanked for it no matter what the size of the sum it is. But to suggest someone may have contributed to have some cover around here from the likes of you is frankly absurd, disrespectful and insulting. This was all for Kimmage, so don't flatter yourself and think people may have contributed because of what you and others around here might think of them if they didn't do so. That would be the last reason anyone would part with their money here.

Nothing suggests to me that Lesli is at fault either by what has been disclosed so far and MarkW was wrong and too hasty in his initial criticism of her in all this(nevertheless that doesn't give you the right to be dismissive of someone's contribution and make fun of it either). But you criticise him for jumping to conclusions in his criticism of her and yet you seem to be jumping to conclusions yourself by suggesting he may have contributed to give himself cover around here. Since you like to dish out the questions how about answering this one. How did you come to the conclusion that MarkW contributed for the very reason you suggest above?

Fact is that Mark is walking around here with this level of anger reserved for someone who has lost their life savings and now wants the government to pay for not policing investments more stringently.
Did someone put a gun to Mark's head? Did someone demand a ransom figure?
Mark, the same guy who is in love with birotte...Birotte, a person almost everyone now accepts did political favours to quash the case. Mark of course is afraid his identity will be made known. Easy to do that mind. Jut find the only lawyer in America working from a laptop in the town park, who seems to have time to post on a forum 24/7. His clients must love him.

Last night I said sorry. But for someone like Mark, and his comments in relation to Floyd show this, nothing will suffice.

Note: Mark decided he wouldn't play the Dr vortex. He played and played and lost. He lost badly. He had no answer left because he was shown up. And then like a child, instead of being a man, he took his toys and and ran home crying to mom. And this guy purports to be a lawyer.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Hold on a second.

You're out of order now.

It doesn't matter if a guy gave $1.50 or $20 to the fund, a person contributed and should be thanked for it no matter what the size of the sum it is. But to suggest someone may have contributed to have some cover around here from the likes of you is frankly absurd, disrespectful and insulting. This was all for Kimmage, so don't flatter yourself and think people may have contributed because of what you and others around here might think of them if they didn't do so. That would be the last reason anyone would part with their money here.

Nothing suggests to me that Lesli is at fault either by what has been disclosed so far and MarkW was wrong and too hasty in his initial criticism of her in all this(nevertheless that doesn't give you the right to be dismissive of someone's contribution and make fun of it either). But you criticise him for jumping to conclusions in his criticism of her and yet you seem to be jumping to conclusions yourself by suggesting he may have contributed to give himself cover around here. Since you like to dish out the questions how about answering this one. How did you come to the conclusion that MarkW contributed for the very reason you suggest above?

Well, hold on another second.

How do you know Mark contributed anything?

I have read reactions from many people here and on twitter who purport to have contributed and they mainly fall in to 2 camps, bewildered at it all or angry with Aaron.
Mark does not fall in to either and it seems odd that someone who has so little regard for the sport who repeatedly states they enjoy the corruptive element of the sport, would hand over cash to fund a person who is attempting to tackle that corruptive element.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I replied to a PM from you. No lie in my post at all and if you can't understand it, then you might want to prepare to be a perpetual student as the court room seems a tad of an overreach.

So to use one of your own posts (directed a Atjaectest a while back):



So, two pieces of BS:

1. you're a defender of women attacked on the forum
2. I sent you a PM. I only replied to your PM, you initiated it.

So you should man up and admit to being a liar (especially the bit that I PM'd you and told you I couldn't prove it - that is nothing but a lie plain and simple. I wrote nothing of the sort in the reply to the PM you sent me). Actually no need, it's evident to anyone that wants to look. Here's the PM:



As for this issue, PM is probably the most appropriate place for it as your BS doesn't relate to the topic.

I see you are still too much of a coward to admit you are a liar. Your admission is in the fact that you cannot produce a single post where I attacked Vos, as that is the most reasonable reading of your initial post.

Now however, you appear to be saying that I cannot claim to defend women who are unfairly attacked because I never visited some mythical Vos thread and defended her. The idiocy of that charge is plain for anyone to see, but you keep flogging it if you want. I never opened such a thread, and if I am required to prove my bona fide emotional reaction to such things by making sure that any time a woman is mentioned, I am there to deal with it, you are going to have to come up with some kind of bat signal or something.

So, sorry, it isn't that you are a liar, you are just not too smart. I apologize.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I see you are still too much of a coward to admit you are a liar. Your admission is in the fact that you cannot produce a single post where I attacked Vos, as that is the most reasonable reading of your initial post.

Now however, you appear to be saying that I cannot claim to defend women who are unfairly attacked because I never visited some mythical Vos thread and defended her. The idiocy of that charge is plain for anyone to see, but you keep flogging it if you want. I never opened such a thread, and if I am required to prove my bona fide emotional reaction to such things by making sure that any time a woman is mentioned, I am there to deal with it, you are going to have to come up with some kind of bat signal or something.

So, sorry, it isn't that you are a liar, you are just not too smart. I apologize.

To be fair and to keep it consistent, wouldn't a Wookie signal be more effective?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

To be fair and to keep it consistent, wouldn't a Wookie signal be more effective?

Great point. Wookie Signal it is!

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Hold on a second.

You're out of order now.

It doesn't matter if a guy gave $1.50 or $20 to the fund, a person contributed and should be thanked for it no matter what the size of the sum it is. But to suggest someone may have contributed to have some cover around here from the likes of you is frankly absurd, disrespectful and insulting. This was all for Kimmage, so don't flatter yourself and think people may have contributed because of what you and others around here might think of them if they didn't do so. That would be the last reason anyone would part with their money here.

Nothing suggests to me that Lesli is at fault either by what has been disclosed so far and MarkW was wrong and too hasty in his initial criticism of her in all this(nevertheless that doesn't give you the right to be dismissive of someone's contribution and make fun of it either). But you criticise him for jumping to conclusions in his criticism of her and yet you seem to be jumping to conclusions yourself by suggesting he may have contributed to give himself cover around here. Since you like to dish out the questions how about answering this one. How did you come to the conclusion that MarkW contributed for the very reason you suggest above?

Way to miss the point.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

What?
Why should anyone "step away" from their keyboards?

If you have information then step up - don't step back.
There are legitimate concerns over the fund that could and should have been addressed promptly by Aaron - people have every right to discuss it.


I considered that too, but if it is a legitimate tax concern then why not furnish the financial statement to Kimmage on Saturday?

Maybe Brown thinks that the money does not belong to Kimmage and therefore does not owe him any explanations?

I would not go about it that way but maybe that is why he is acting in this manner?

Brown seems to have problems with the money becoming a attack fund. So maybe he decided on his own that he should prorate the money back to donors or hold it. I still do not see why he didn't just discuss this with everyone involved but he was the person holding the cash.

Very odd or strange….to me,,,,, but maybe just a misunderstanding?

 

[BroDeal]

Maybe Brown thinks that the money does not belong to Kimmage and therefore does not owe him any explanations?

I would not go about it that way but maybe that is why he is acting in this manner?

Brown seems to have problems with the money becoming a attack fund. So maybe he decided on his own that he should prorate the money back to donors or hold it. I still do not see why he didn't just discuss this with everyone involved but he was the person holding the cash.

Very odd or strange….to me,,,,, but maybe just a misunderstanding?

I can think of a couple of explanations. First, if he set up a non-profit after the money was transferred from the Cyclisman account then use of the money as an "attack fund" might not match the non-profit's charter, which might cause a tax liability. Second, he could be worried about funds that were solicited for one reason being used for another, opening himself up to some sort of fraud charge.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I can think of a couple of explanations. First, if he set up a non-profit after the money was transferred from the Cyclisman account then use of the money as an "attack fund" might not match the non-profit's charter, which might cause a tax liability. Second, he could be worried about funds that were solicited for one reason being used for another, opening himself up to some sort of fraud charge.

Both of those would be some good reasons to act the way he has.

I thought about if he wanted to take the money and run, why would he have left the twitter account on etc. Of course that might not mean anything at all.

Also if one of those reasons you mention above or both are what is happening then there might be a diffrence of opinions amongst the folks who started up the fund with regards to the use of the money for the future etc.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Maybe Brown thinks that the money does not belong to Kimmage and therefore does not owe him any explanations?

I would not go about it that way but maybe that is why he is acting in this manner?

Brown seems to have problems with the money becoming a attack fund. So maybe he decided on his own that he should prorate the money back to donors or hold it. I still do not see why he didn't just discuss this with everyone involved but he was the person holding the cash.

Very odd or strange….to me,,,,, but maybe just a misunderstanding?

Again that would all be fine - but it does not explain why he would not furnish a statement. All a statement would show was any transactions, the funds contributed and any funds out, which should only be for legal fees (for which the fund was set up), some tax, and any PayPal administration fee's.

The what to do with the fund is a separate issue.
And if memory serves me correct he advocated that it be used to fund Kimmage to go after UCI. But someone can correct me on that, if not the case.

 

[thirteen]

Both of those would be some good reasons to act the way he has.

I thought about if he wanted to take the money and run, why would he have left the twitter account on etc. Of course that might not mean anything at all.

Also if one of those reasons you mention above or both are what is happening then there might be a diffrence of opinions amongst the folks who started up the fund with regards to the use of the money for the future etc.

i agree on the last, as Aaron has tweeted that all the remaining monies will be returned to the people who gave donations... semantics, maybe, but as the case has not been officially ruled over -- it's not over and those funds may still be needed.

his twitter account is still active but mightily neutered. i don't think his "chuckle" amuses anyone right now.

as for BroDeal's thoughts, yes... but if those are the reasons, it still doesn't explain why some of Cyclismas' money went astray as well, does it?

i truly do hope it is resolved soon. i don't want Kimmage to lose heart... love him or loathe him, his voice is needed in cycling if it's ever to change.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Again that would all be fine - but it does not explain why he would not furnish a statement. All a statement would show was any transactions, the funds contributed and any funds out, which should only be for legal fees (for which the fund was set up), some tax, and any PayPal administration fee's.

The what to do with the fund is a separate issue.
And if memory serves me correct he advocated that it be used to fund Kimmage to go after UCI. But someone can correct me on that, if not the case.

I think the explanation for why he does not furnish a statement could be a couple of things.

1. He does not agree with his partners and Kimmage on the future of the fund, decides on his own that even the amount balance should not be any business of Kimmage's. (Note: - I would not go about it that way but maybe he is being petty and is acting this way)
2. There are some bad transactions in that account that shows money was paid to things other than the defense payment /fees/taxes. That in my opinion could be illegal or unprofessional business that is not acceptable.