Kloden, really?

[D-Queued]

..."Entschuldigung, haben Sie heute schon gedopt?" (Excuse me, have you doped today?"). ...

Thanks. Have been studying German, and don't think I have learned this verb yet.

Perhaps Voigt or Klodi meant to say this: Gedopt über Alles.

Interesting translation poetically and literally.

Dave.

 

[Mr.38%]

Yeah right, we're all Nazi dopers.

 

[Rominger]

Doped he may well be, but he is still class on a bike, so smooth, great cadence, etc. Dope doesn't make a racehorse out of a donkey and he certainly doesn't look like a donkey when he throws his leg over a bike.

 

[Berzin]

Dope doesn't make a racehorse out of a donkey...

Yes it does. We've watched this very same thing happen for the last 20 or so years.

So stop repeating this statement. It's not true. Anyone who believes this doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[Mr.38%]

EPO killed cycling.

 

[hrotha]

Run of the mill dope doesn't make a racehorse out of a donkey, but assuming Klödi (whom I rather like) used only run of the mill dope, that's still a weak excuse to act like an omerta-enforcing jerk.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Yes it does. We've watched this very same thing happen for the last 20 or so years.

So stop repeating this statement. It's not true. Anyone who believes this doesn't know what he's talking about.

I believe that I will have to disagree with your premiss as it applies to the today's professional cycling rank and file.

If we go back to the early nineties when systematic doping was a relatively new concept we have examples like your forum namesake Evgeni Berzin, and Furlan, and Gotti whose collective meteoric raise and fall can be directly attributed to an organized program. A program very quickly emulated by Mapei and soon all of professional cycling until parity was eventually restored.

As wide spread as PED use and blood doping is in cycling today, it would seem that greatest beneficiaries are the worker bees and support players who can find the legs and lungs to survive an entire Grand Tour and still perform their job. I don't see any glaring examples of mediocre talent being unduly thrust into the lime light.

I would be curious to know, in your opinion, what examples of a Donkey being turned into a Racehorse you believe you are seeing in today's peloton.

 

[Dettol]

Bjarne Riis

 

[D-Queued]

Bjarne Riis

Lance (one day wonder) Armstrong.

Dave.

 

[sniper]

Sastre, Pereiro

 

[Polish]

Point being he's all talent. He's frustration is he could smash most cyclists with one leg tied behind his back.

He used to hate Armstrong. He was the only one in the 2000's calling him out on the "no trains as hard as me". Kloden knows what it was. The only thing that made an ugly rider like Armstrong better than Kloden was dope. Period.

Lance is one of the very few riders with the work ethic that Klodi could appreciate. That is probably why Kloden has come to admire Lance.

I mean, here is Lance, transformed by dope.
Lance could have kicked back and hung out with Jan in the winter.
Still would have kicked Jans ****. Lance was transformed by dope.

But did Lance kick back? Hell no.

He trained like a madman. Slept in a tent. Watched his diet. Etc Etc Etc.
Unneccesary of course, he was transformed by EPO. He could have taken it easy like so many other riders transformed by dope. Kohl. Ricco. Many others.

But Lance did not kick back. Kloden liked that. He is now a fan. Jan too.

 

[hrotha]

Sastre, Pereiro

I disagree about Pereiro, although I see why you'd say that. But Sastre?!?

 

[sniper]

I disagree about Pereiro, although I see why you'd say that. But Sastre?!?

guess I'm just suspitious of the guy's tdf victory riding for Riis.
and his results after 2008, well, very decent, but nothing more than that.
But ok, i withdraw Sastre.

 

[D-Queued]

I disagree about Pereiro, although I see why you'd say that. But Sastre?!?

I have no facts to share, but have always been suspicious of his 'upbringinging' and initiation to the sport of cycling, well before Riis:

When Sastre was young, professional cyclist Francisco Ignacio San Román lived in his parents's house during military service

Then, again before Riis, there is the fact that he was on ONCE, the dirtiest team of its time.

Finally,

Before the 2004 season, Carlos Sastre and teammate Ivan Basso trained extensively to improve their individual time trial skills, making them better all-round riders

Wonder what kind of techniques they perfected together?

Ultimately, too much exposure, starting too young, to the weirding ways.

Dave.

 

[La Pandera]

Yes it does. We've watched this very same thing happen for the last 20 or so years.

So stop repeating this statement. It's not true. Anyone who believes this doesn't know what he's talking about.

It's my understanding that, the same as some medications effect different people in more or less intense ways, the same applies to doping. PED's may give more of an advantage to one rider than another. So one may not see the significant boost in performance that another might.

 

[La Pandera]

Sastre, Pereiro

You would select 2 Spanish riders.

 

[La Pandera]

Lance is one of the very few riders with the work ethic that Klodi could appreciate. That is probably why Kloden has come to admire Lance.

I mean, here is Lance, transformed by dope.
Lance could have kicked back and hung out with Jan in the winter.
Still would have kicked Jans ****. Lance was transformed by dope.

But did Lance kick back? Hell no.

He trained like a madman. Slept in a tent. Watched his diet. Etc Etc Etc.
Unneccesary of course, he was transformed by EPO. He could have taken it easy like so many other riders transformed by dope. Kohl. Ricco. Many others.

But Lance did not kick back. Kloden liked that. He is now a fan. Jan too.

Man give it a rest!

 

[Christian]

In the aftermath of Jan Ullrich’s 1997 Tour de France victory, German cycling grew to unprecedented levels as Europe’s largest economy woke up to a sport that had previously seemed the preserve of its neighbours in France, Belgium and Italy.

By 2006, there were three German teams in the ProTour but in the aftermath of Operacion Puerto and Ullrich’s downfall, the bubble burst spectacularly. T-Mobile left the sport at the end of 2007 and Gerolsteiner were to follow in 2008 when a series of positive tests hit the team. When Milram folded at the end of this season it marked the definitive closing of an era.

Really good analysis of what happened in German cycling! Too bad there is no ProTeam at all at this point, but 3 was too much, it had to burst at some point

 

[La Pandera]

I have no facts to share, but have always been suspicious of his 'upbringinging' and initiation to the sport of cycling, well before Riis:

When Sastre was young, professional cyclist Francisco Ignacio San Román lived in his parents's house during military service

Then, again before Riis, there is the fact that he was on ONCE, the dirtiest team of its time.

Finally,

Wonder what kind of techniques they perfected together?

Ultimately, too much exposure, starting too young, to the weirding ways.

Dave.

...and Cadel Evans rode for T-Mobile, who can rival ONCE for the title of "dirtiest team of its time". Does that also make him a rider of suspicion?

 

[Dettol]

In the clinic every rider is a 'rider of suspicion' except for maybe Lemond.

 

[hrotha]

I have no facts to share, but have always been suspicious of his 'upbringinging' and initiation to the sport of cycling, well before Riis:

When Sastre was young, professional cyclist Francisco Ignacio San Román lived in his parents's house during military service

Then, again before Riis, there is the fact that he was on ONCE, the dirtiest team of its time.

Finally,

Wonder what kind of techniques they perfected together?

Ultimately, too much exposure, starting too young, to the weirding ways.

Dave.

For the record, I'm not saying Sastre didn't (or doesn't) dope, but the conversation was about average or mediocre riders who become world class riders thanks to doping. Sastre had a pretty good pedigree, he was one of the best Spanish u23 riders in 1997 for example. That doesn't mean he's clean, of course (the best Spanish u23 cyclist that year was probably Mancebo), just that he did have class. He's been probably the most consistent GC rider of the decade and hasn't had any sudden bumps in his performance from one year to another. That to me is a sign of someone who didn't overdo it. Not a Riis.

 

[Ferminal]

In the clinic every rider is a 'rider of suspicion' except for maybe Lemond.

Which GT winner in the last 15 years warrants being "above suspicion"?

 

[The Hitch]

Which GT winner in the last 15 years warrants being "above suspicion"?

While I myself am convinced Vini is on the sauce, theres not too much suspicious about our last gt winner, except rumours that he likes Ferrari.

 

[Dettol]

IMO none.

I think the question is which rider would you most forgive if they were found to be doping? The answer would be Jan and Carlos.

 

[Race Radio]

That incident happened way before there was any evidence that Klöden was involved in anything. The "journalist" walked up to any german rider and Armstrong. Voigte replied if the guy did his expense accounts or return of tax correctly.

He knew nothing about the sport and who did what, he wasn't even interested. The German press acts like a prosecutor, a prosecutor who is only interested in cyclists. Doping in other sports does not change a thing for cycling - fact. Still if you ask someone for fairness you are obliged to play fair as well otherwise you are not the least bit better than the one you are after.

The reporter asked the question at the 2006 Tour. The year of Operation Puerto. Bags of blood were found. Dozens of riders involved. 10 riders were kept out Two of Kloden's teammates, Savilla and Ulrich, had been stopped from riding the Tour and their director, Rudy Pevenage, had been fired.

At that point the sport was engulfed in widespread doping.