Kloden, really?

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Polish said:
Lance is one of the very few riders with the work ethic that Klodi could appreciate. That is probably why Kloden has come to admire Lance.

I mean, here is Lance, transformed by dope.
Lance could have kicked back and hung out with Jan in the winter.
Still would have kicked Jans ****. Lance was transformed by dope.

But did Lance kick back? Hell no.

He trained like a madman. Slept in a tent. Watched his diet. Etc Etc Etc.
Unneccesary of course, he was transformed by EPO. He could have taken it easy like so many other riders transformed by dope. Kohl. Ricco. Many others.

But Lance did not kick back. Kloden liked that. He is now a fan. Jan too.
Makes sense in a twisted sort of way but it is indeed odd that Klöden warmed to Armstrong, to the point of dragging him up to Verbier in 2009...can't be only about the money.
 

flicker

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Take a look at Kloden in the recent Cyclingnews shack and Kloeden interviews.

He is alert, fit focused and centered. Simply an epic rider. I love everything about him, the respect that Kloeden has with his own family,his focus on cycling his friendship with Jan and Jans family, his being sponsored and in unison with Lance, even the admiration Levi has for Kloeden.

Most of all what I love about Kloeden is his love for life and cycling.

Jens and Vino are similar in their joy of cycling but when I see Kloeden I think of some of the old time tour riders who seemed to have more solidness and substance in their lives, other than cycling or sport.
 
Race Radio said:
The reporter asked the question at the 2006 Tour. The year of Operation Puerto. Bags of blood were found. Dozens of riders involved. 10 riders were kept out Two of Kloden's teammates, Savilla and Ulrich, had been stopped from riding the Tour and their director, Rudy Pevenage, had been fired.

At that point the sport was engulfed in widespread doping.
Ummh, no. I think it was during the Deutschland-Tour. And I'm talking about evidence about actual criminal actions. The journalist took the riders in Sippenhaft (to stay in Nazi-jargon...).

Klöden was (afaik) not involved in Puerto. At that time nobody outside T-Mobile knew about the operations inside the Freiburg clinic. As Jan said, you can put two and two together. But good journalism is about facts, not wild accusations.

When I raced a post Tour crit I saw Jens Heppner yelling and laughing during the pre-race riders meeting: "Was, kein Doping? Wir sind doch hier beim Radsport!". Andi is different, so was Matze Kessler. Call it Omerta or whatever. You know where these riders are coming from, you know how things were going. Not everybody is able to come clean - even though they maybe should.

Andy saw what they did to Jan. Not everybody is a hero. I have great respect for Andreas' work ethics and his style on the bike, I like his quiet personality. He even took down his official homepage because he was so ****ed off. I know, you call this omerta...
 
Oct 16, 2010
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La Pandera said:
You would select 2 Spanish riders. :(
hm.. thanks for pointing it out and I take it back as far as Sastre is concerned.
And in fact I love Spanish cycling / cyclists.
Just for some time I thought they were a bit too dominant in the Tour.
Anyway, Indurain and Contador have shown what Spanish cycling-talent is all about. La leche.
 
May 17, 2010
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D-Queued said:
I have no facts to share, but have always been suspicious of his 'upbringinging' and initiation to the sport of cycling, well before Riis:

When Sastre was young, professional cyclist Francisco Ignacio San Román lived in his parents's house during military service

Then, again before Riis, there is the fact that he was on ONCE, the dirtiest team of its time.

Finally,

Wonder what kind of techniques they perfected together?

Ultimately, too much exposure, starting too young, to the weirding ways.

Dave.
Basso and Sastre did do some wind tunnel testing and training at MIT. That being said I still put any rider who was successful under Riis as "very suspicious".
 
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Mr.38% said:
Ummh, no. I think it was during the Deutschland-Tour. And I'm talking about evidence about actual criminal actions. The journalist took the riders in Sippenhaft (to stay in Nazi-jargon...).

Klöden was (afaik) not involved in Puerto. At that time nobody outside T-Mobile knew about the operations inside the Freiburg clinic. As Jan said, you can put two and two together. But good journalism is about facts, not wild accusations.

When I raced a post Tour crit I saw Jens Heppner yelling and laughing during the pre-race riders meeting: "Was, kein Doping? Wir sind doch hier beim Radsport!". Andi is different, so was Matze Kessler. Call it Omerta or whatever. You know where these riders are coming from, you know how things were going. Not everybody is able to come clean - even though they maybe should.

Andy saw what they did to Jan. Not everybody is a hero. I have great respect for Andreas' work ethics and his style on the bike, I like his quiet personality. He even took down his official homepage because he was so ****ed off. I know, you call this omerta...
What was going on in Freiburg was fairly well know in the sport far before Jef d'Hont said anything.

I agree that the German media went overboard and seriously damaged the sport. BUT I still think that when those inside the sport are spewing absurd excuses and denials that require fans and reporters to suspend rational thought that they should not be surprised when Der Spiegel starts sounding like The Onion.
 
Correction: It was known (not widely but still) that Keul et al. supported popular Olympic sports such as track & field where Western Germany had to join the arms race against the GDR and eastern Europe. Only very few bicyle racers - mostly track - have been prepared at Freiburg Uni as Germany was a developing nation in terms of cycling. Dr. Huber prepared the German national road team during the nineties with orals and T inj. but only track riders recieved the "good stuff". A lot of riders were from my home town and travelled to Freiburg occasionally and returned with stuffed bags. Some of them raced until a few years ago as amateurs.

A bit more on topic a nice link to the ARD homepage. You may have heared about Germanies biggest television broadcaster when they decided that cycling is a dirty sport and simply switched off the Tour on TV ;)

This article has originally been posted in the "Cycling" categorie and before it was revised by the author after numerous complaints. It contained the word "cycling" three times as often as "track and field". And it's still not in the appropriate category. You don't have to understand German to see that they are basically describing Puerto as a scandal within cycling only...
 
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Mr.38% said:
Correction: It was known (not widely but still) that Keul et al. supported popular Olympic sports such as track & field where Western Germany had to join the arms race against the GDR and eastern Europe. Only very few bicyle racers - mostly track - have been prepared at Freiburg Uni as Germany was a developing nation in terms of cycling. Dr. Huber prepared the German national road team during the nineties with orals and T inj. but only track riders recieved the "good stuff". A lot of riders were from my home town and travelled to Freiburg occasionally and returned with stuffed bags. Some of them raced until a few years ago as amateurs.

A bit more on topic a nice link to the ARD homepage. You may have heared about Germanies biggest television broadcaster when they decided that cycling is a dirty sport and simply switched off the Tour on TV ;)

This article has originally been posted in the "Cycling" categorie and before it was revised by the author after numerous complaints. It contained the word "cycling" three times as often as "track and field". And it's still not in the appropriate category. You don't have to understand German to see that they are basically describing Puerto as a scandal within cycling only...
which i think is the best media action ever undertaken to try and get something done in cycling.
 
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sniper said:
which i think is the best media action ever undertaken to try and get something done in cycling.
Agreed. It's actually good to see that Germany has learned from past mistakes and decided to not support the institutionalized immorality that is pro cycling in this day and age.
 
BikeCentric said:
Agreed. It's actually good to see that Germany has learned from past mistakes and decided to not support the institutionalized immorality that is pro cycling in this day and age.
Disagreed. German TV supports the institutionalized immorality that is all pro sports except for cycling.
 
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On topic: Kloeden himself is not the real issue here. He is just a small part of the problem, just another pawn in the game. The bigger problem is the cycling media that is content to ask a rider like him softball questions. Why is a rider who is basically 100% certain to be a known participant in the Freiburg blood doping ring still given kid gloves treatment by the media, and more importantly the fans? If he wants to keep riding he should expect to be ridiculed by the media and the fans and alike. And yet instead he gets his a$$ kissed by both. This is the bigger problem here.
 
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hrotha said:
Disagreed. German TV supports the institutionalized immorality that is all pro sports except for cycling.
There are shades of grey. Cycling truly is in a far sorrier state than many if not most other pro sports. Either that or you believe that the media disproportionately devotes reporting money to one of the smaller sports (cycling) and reports far more doping cases for cycling than other sports just because they feel like losing money.
 

flicker

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BikeCentric said:
Agreed. It's actually good to see that Germany has learned from past mistakes and decided to not support the institutionalized immorality that is pro cycling in this day and age.
What are you talking about? Those german sports journalists and german sports TV people are the biggest hypocrits in the world, truly world class hypocrits. They focus on cycling after all the history of german doping across sports.
 
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flicker said:
What are you talking about? Those german sports journalists and german sports TV people are the biggest hypocrits in the world, truly world class hypocrits. They focus on cycling after all the history of german doping across sports.
Your argumentation implies, for instance, that because Germany was full of nazis a few decades ago, they wouldn't have the right to protest/act against nazism nowadays. I don't see the logic in that.
 
BikeCentric said:
On topic: Kloeden himself is not the real issue here. He is just a small part of the problem, just another pawn in the game. The bigger problem is the cycling media that is content to ask a rider like him softball questions. Why is a rider who is basically 100% certain to be a known participant in the Freiburg blood doping ring still given kid gloves treatment by the media, and more importantly the fans? If he wants to keep riding he should expect to be ridiculed by the media and the fans and alike. And yet instead he gets his a$$ kissed by both. This is the bigger problem here.
It's good that we can trust Radioshack to do the right thing in the fight against doping.

Unless the Hog had a major hangover the day he looked Kloden in the eyes.
 

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sniper said:
Your argumentation implies, for instance, that because Germany was full of nazis a few decades ago, they wouldn't have the right to protest/act against nazism nowadays. I don't see the logic in that.
Once again I am talking about gold medals in the olympics and uber fantastik eastern and western doktors in Germany. Nothing about nazis, the post war doping that has taken place in germany is outstanding.
The journalists need to rubbish all the doping medals east and west before they turn off the tour tv. Total rubbish their prejudice against cycling.
 
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flicker said:
Once again I am talking about gold medals in the olympics and uber fantastik eastern and western doktors in Germany. Nothing about nazis, the post war doping that has taken place in germany is outstanding.
The journalists need to rubbish all the doping medals east and west before they turn off the tour tv. Total rubbish their prejudice against cycling.
I think their action was a paradigm example of how to put pressure on authorities such as the UCI. Cutting media coverage, that's where it hurts, cuz that's when sponsors will eventually step out, so that's really the way to show that doping is unwanted and that the UCI should act accordingly.
Of course, German television could do the same with other sports, which are probably just as rotten, but we have to start somewhere, don't we? So why not with cycling.
 
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flicker said:
Once again I am talking about gold medals in the olympics and uber fantastik eastern and western doktors in Germany. Nothing about nazis, the post war doping that has taken place in germany is outstanding.
The journalists need to rubbish all the doping medals east and west before they turn off the tour tv. Total rubbish their prejudice against cycling.
by the way, I know you weren'T talking about nazis, sorry if I suggested that.
What I meant to say is that your reasoning implies that if some country did bad in the past, they do not have the right to try and do better in the present.
And what do you mean with prejudice against cycling? Haven't Armstrong, Landis, Rasmussen, Contador and plenty of others shown that German television was not prejudiced at the time? (Again, regardless of how rotten other sports are, we're talking about cycling here.)
 
sniper said:
I think their action was a paradigm example of how to put pressure on authorities such as the UCI. Cutting media coverage, that's where it hurts, cuz that's when sponsors will eventually step out, so that's really the way to show that doping is unwanted and that the UCI should act accordingly.
Of course, German television could do the same with other sports, which are probably just as rotten, but we're talking about cycling here. And we have to start somewhere, don't we? So why not with cycling.
Well to answer a question with another cycling, why start with cycling? Yes, we are talking cycling but we are also talking about why German media picks on cycling alone and if it is hypocritical. Why not hammer football, is it because football is the most popular sport. Jeez just look at Fuentes comments on World & European champions Spain.

Fact is football is just as corrupt, do you remember the German, referee Hoytzer who was taking money to throw games for betting syndicates. That was followed up by the Italian fixing scandal. Just look at how corrupt FIFA is, hell there is cheating in every single game in every country every week. Look at some of the dodgy practices carried out by some shady club owners all over the globe. The game is run by money, a lot of it ill-gained.

I never seen the Germans ever mentioning dropping football coverage. Fact is, German media are indeed preaching double standards.
 
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pmcg76 said:
Well to answer a question with another cycling, why start with cycling? Yes, we are talking cycling but we are also talking about why German media picks on cycling alone and if it is hypocritical. Why not hammer football, is it because football is the most popular sport. Jeez just look at Fuentes comments on World & European champions Spain.

Fact is football is just as corrupt, do you remember the German, referee Hoytzer who was taking money to throw games for betting syndicates. That was followed up by the Italian fixing scandal. Just look at how corrupt FIFA is, hell there is cheating in every single game in every country every week. Look at some of the dodgy practices carried out by some shady club owners all over the globe. The game is run by money, a lot of it ill-gained.

I never seen the Germans ever mentioning dropping football coverage. Fact is, German media are indeed preaching double standards.
I don'T deny all of that. On the contrary, sounds reasonable. But does that make the action against cycling a superfluous one? I don't find so.

A bit of an overstated metaphor, but imagine: If you have ten sick patients, and you have the power to only cure one, would you choose to cure one patient, or would you choose to cure nobody cuz you don't want to be preaching double standards?
 
pmcg76 said:
Well to answer a question with another cycling, why start with cycling? Yes, we are talking cycling but we are also talking about why German media picks on cycling alone and if it is hypocritical. Why not hammer football, is it because football is the most popular sport. Jeez just look at Fuentes comments on World & European champions Spain.

Fact is football is just as corrupt, do you remember the German, referee Hoytzer who was taking money to throw games for betting syndicates. That was followed up by the Italian fixing scandal. Just look at how corrupt FIFA is, hell there is cheating in every single game in every country every week. Look at some of the dodgy practices carried out by some shady club owners all over the globe. The game is run by money, a lot of it ill-gained.

I never seen the Germans ever mentioning dropping football coverage. Fact is, German media are indeed preaching double standards.

There may be corruption but its punished hard. Why drop coverage. They dropped the teams!

Juventas were punished where it hurt most. Dropped to 2nd division for 4 years later 2 years with no promotion in sight. In real terms that was like 30 million a year in lost revenues. No chance of Champions League for a long time. Loss of key players. It hurt the club badly. Never seen a ProTour team dropped due positives. Instead we have a system whereby a new team full of aging hacks with only one race of interest gets a ProTour licence and another who has upheld the highest standards and races all year round can barely get a Pro Continental licence.
 
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pmcg76 said:
Well to answer a question with another cycling, why start with cycling? Yes, we are talking cycling but we are also talking about why German media picks on cycling alone and if it is hypocritical. Why not hammer football, is it because football is the most popular sport. Jeez just look at Fuentes comments on World & European champions Spain.

Fact is football is just as corrupt, do you remember the German, referee Hoytzer who was taking money to throw games for betting syndicates. That was followed up by the Italian fixing scandal. Just look at how corrupt FIFA is, hell there is cheating in every single game in every country every week. Look at some of the dodgy practices carried out by some shady club owners all over the globe. The game is run by money, a lot of it ill-gained.

I never seen the Germans ever mentioning dropping football coverage. Fact is, German media are indeed preaching double standards.
They always use the easiest targets of course.
Kicking some people lieing on the ground to death.

Thats what losers like Seppelt do.
 

flicker

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sniper said:
by the way, I know you weren'T talking about nazis, sorry if I suggested that.
What I meant to say is that your reasoning implies that if some country did bad in the past, they do not have the right to try and do better in the present.
And what do you mean with prejudice against cycling? Haven't Armstrong, Landis, Rasmussen, Contador and plenty of others shown that German television was not prejudiced at the time? (Again, regardless of how rotten other sports are, we're talking about cycling here.)
I know you are trolling(i appreciate a good troll) but your logic does not make sense to me. If turning off LeTour/trashing Ulrich and other German riders does good, would your logic also say extend to cancelling all US masters cycling races because some masters have been known to dope.
If you cancel the races because of the dopers will that set an example in stopping doping in cycling and also stop doping in other sports.

Selfishly I like seeing great German cyclists like Didi Thurah, Rolf Aldag,Jan Ulrich,Kloeden, Zabel etc. I think that the German public needs heroes.

If they doped oh well, it is in the fine tradition of our sport.
 
Let me play advocatus diaboli: If Andy was guilty he would't ride any more, his case has been investigated by German authorities, not just some obscure sports court. How is more evil than any other rider who raced successfully since 1990? I have more reason to trust Klöden than 99% of all professional riders, haven't I?

Just yesterday there was a story about a Bundesliga (easily one of the three best leagues in the world and commercially much bigger than cycling as a whole) soccer game that has been manipulated by the betting mafia. Nobody questions soccer, at least not that I'm aware of.
 

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