Kohl retires

[issoisso]

"I had the blood passport for a year and a half, and my blood values were A-1. That's why I got my super contract with Silence-Lotto."

(...)

Kohl said that Silence-Lotto "saw my blood values and said, 'wow, he does that well!' Because they know that you don't finish third in the Tour simply from bread and water, that the medical aspect has to be there, too. They said, 'he's no risk, we can spend a lot of money on him.'"

So, according to Kohl, Lotto's anything but trustworthy.
Also, water is wet.

Still, brave of him to blurt that out.

 

[Stani Kléber]

It's nice to see Silence-Lotto gets to view the blood passport data, everyone else has seems to have heard nothing. Back in February UCI boss Pat "Chief Wiggum" McQuaid announced anti-doping prosecutions "within days or weeks" but months later, nothing.

 

[JoeVelo]

Spaniards

It's been a bad run for the Germans and Austrians. Good riddance to them.

Don't forget the Spaniards who burried Puerto when they saw that a lot of their favorites were implicated... ValvPiti is still riding as long as I know.
What about the Italians? Pantani, Ricco, Piepoli, Scarponi, ... I don't trust young prodigys anymore.

 

[Cobblestones]

I know what you mean but many riders were going to races during the 1990s with large cardboard boxes containing a centrifuge, the idea being they could measure their haematocrit from their hotel room. Now you can't ban riders because they buy these machines but something's very wrong with the sport when riders were openly carrying these machines into hotel lobbies.

One rider from a large Dutch team famously went into a rage when waiting for his baggage at an airport carousel because he discovered his centrifuge broken on the conveyor belt in front of him.

There are centrifuges and centrifuges. Most at that time had a small portable one to test their crit value (which can be done with a small volume blood sample. The centrifuge Kohl and Rasmussen had (and it's true, they might face criminal prosecution because they might have made this thing available to other athletes for profit, not simply for possession) is one used for blood packing, i.e. it's one which can process a large volume (pint) of blood at a time. It's a different beast and in a totally different price range.

 

[Stani Kléber]

Oh yes, I know the difference. I was just making the point that these riders were openly carrying them around but no one could touch them. The larger unit is indeed used to seperate the precious red blood cells from the other components of blood.

My point was that buying such equipment should be a problem, there is no reason for someone like Kohl to buy such kit. Obviously it's hard to enforce but I'm not going to distinguish between someone who buys one of these units and someone who sells the use of these units, both are equally suspicious to me.

 

[BroDeal]

Kohl's statements are interesting. He confirms everything that a lot of us have said: The testing is virtually worthless and the bio-passport is a fraud.

It does raise questions about how anyone manages to test positive. If not for the French catching riders with their surprise CERA testing, Kohl would still be riding and doping, except thiis year he would have had the benefit of doping with even more money.

It is also interesting that he was using both CERA and blood transfusions during last years TdF. Or maybe the CERA was used prior to the TdF in order to build his red blood cells up after blood was drawn for future transfusions.

 

[issoisso]

It is also interesting that he was using both CERA and blood transfusions during last years TdF. Or maybe the CERA was used prior to the TdF in order to build his red blood cells up after blood was drawn for future transfusions.

4 transfusions of 500ml at different times during the Tour, he says.

 

[BroDeal]

I was thinking that he might have drawn some blood in June and used CERA to replace the red blood cells. The CERA might have stuck in his system long enough to test positive at the TdF even though he did not inject CERA during the Tour.

Or maybe he did both CERA and blood transfusions during the Tour, which I am not sure why he would do that. I guess one possibility would be to use transfusions to temporarily exceed the 50% limit for a single stage. The excess blood could be drained after the stage.

 

[Stani Kléber]

Kohl's statements are interesting. He confirms everything that a lot of us have said: The testing is virtually worthless and the bio-passport is a fraud.

I don't think the bio passport is a fraud. It can work, it should help give some signs of obvious doping but like any system, people will find ways around it. So it's not a disaster, it's just a simple system to help build up information.

After all, remember that Pat McQuaid promised prosecutions based on the passport data "within days or weeks" back at the Tour of Calfornia. The UCI believes it's enough to catch some riders although the subsequent silence and lack of updates from the UCI undermines their credibility.

But there are still more steps to take, start line haematocrit testing would help, as would total body haemoglobin tests, both methods are cheap and easy to use and would help, but not prevent 100%, the anti-doping controls.

Where's Anne Gripper, has anyone heard from her in recent months?

 

[BroDeal]

Where's Anne Gripper, has anyone heard from her in recent months?

It's been two years since we heard from her and her targeted testing. She's been stopped in her tracks.

 

[franciep10]

For once I'm going to agree in big boat, This shows that the anti dopers are not catching up to the riders, the fact that you can find an illegal substance but still call it negative is ridiculous. Also Alpe frankly I don't put my trust in any team or rider, They might not be involved in team doping, and the management does not support doping but I'm sure the riders on that team aren't riding on bread and water. Maybe Big Boat isn't the crazy guy in the alley shouting at the sky anymore.

 

[Snake8]

Don't mean to hijack the thread, some good info here and an actually useful discussion about doping...anyway, why isn't there a rider's union in cycling? I don't think it would be a silver bullet or anything in regards to cleaning up doping, but as long as one of the parties is not at the table, I don't see how they can really address this problem.

 

[nobody]

If UCI want to have an efficient bio passport and real antidoping control, the just have to test riders a quater before the start line and just after the finish line. Don't let them time to infuse, dilute and retire extra-blood.

But of course if they won't catch them thay already know how to do it.

 

[ElChingon]

Don't mean to hijack the thread, some good info here and an actually useful discussion about doping...anyway, why isn't there a rider's union in cycling? I don't think it would be a silver bullet or anything in regards to cleaning up doping, but as long as one of the parties is not at the table, I don't see how they can really address this problem.

I'm thinking a true Riders Union might get infused with Non-Dopers at the top and possibly ruin the Omerta if they get any power. The way it stands the riders Union in the Black so to speak and who knows how it works but it does its job based on the riders that can't get a job with the ProTour teams.

 

[Zoncolan]

No news here really. A lot of us already knew the way things stood in the pro peloton with doping.
Hope he says everything he knows, names names, suppliers, doctors, athletes... not that it'll make much difference with McQuaid in charge.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

It's nice to see Silence-Lotto gets to view the blood passport data, everyone else has seems to have heard nothing. Back in February UCI boss Pat "Chief Wiggum" McQuaid announced anti-doping prosecutions "within days or weeks" but months later, nothing.

As Lemond said, the UCI is corrupt (they are suing him for saying this, btw). Until McQuaid and pretty much everyone sitting in the UCI offices (and especially Hein Verbruggen) are flushed out and replaced by someone who is straight forward, has a plan, and is no nonsense, little will change.

I'm almost convinced that some teams that have internal anti-doping programs simply to make sure their riders don't pop positive at controls. Silence-Lotto was basically doing this, just not calling it "anti-doping". It's sort of like the Bush administrations "Clean Skies Act" that eased pollution controls.

Alpe frankly I don't put my trust in any team or rider... Maybe Big Boat isn't the crazy guy in the alley shouting at the sky anymore.

I'm not saying I think Garmin and their entire team and system are completely whistle clean. Just that if there's a team in the Giro right now that is, it would be them. They do have a manager who does seem honestly against doping (JV) and some outspoken riders against it. Plus, their results are indicative of riding this Giro clean...I hope.

I've been one of the few people defending BigBoat, actually. I just think he needed to use this for his avatar:

why isn't there a rider's union in cycling?.

There is, the AIGCP, run by Eric Boyer. They made themselves impotent over the last decade by fighting almost every anti-doping measure and defending dopers (namely, Richard Virenque). They also sided with the UCI in it's battles with the ASO (which in many ways came down to doping), and ended up on the loosing end of that. Most riders supported this thinking, and probably still do. As an example, can you picture this scene: Christoph Bassons takes off up the road, and Lance goes to chase him - but 25 other riders chase down Lance and tell him they'll crash him if he keeps this bullsnit up. Do you see that happening? Neither do I.

Finally. Something I posted before. After Puerto broke, La Gazetta tracked down a recently retired Italian racer who had placed well in the Giro in years past. He anonymously said pretty much exactly what Kohl did about it being impossible to win without doping, that teams covered things up, etc. Almost to the word.

 

[Stani Kléber]

As Lemond said, the UCI is corrupt (they are suing him for saying this, btw)

The UCI have said they'd sue Lemond but this has yet to happen. Just as McQuaid said he'd sue **** Pound, this didn't happen either. They like to make loud statements to the press but are thin on action

There is, the AIGCP, run by Eric Boyer. They made themselves impotent over the last decade by fighting almost every anti-doping measure and defending dopers (namely, Richard Virenque).

You've got this mixed up, the riders union is the CPA and it's headed by Cédric Vasseur, the ex-Cofidis and US Postal rider. The AIGCP is a group of teams led by Eric Boyer. Boyer is the Cofidis DS and a big anti-doping voice who was brought into turn around the madhouse that was Cofidis (Millar, Gaumont, VDB etc).

 

[issoisso]

You've got this mixed up, the riders union is the CPA and it's headed by Cédric Vasseur, the ex-Cofidis and US Postal rider. The AIGCP is a group of teams led by Eric Boyer. Boyer is the Cofidis DS and a big anti-doping voice who was brought into turn around the madhouse that was Cofidis (Millar, Gaumont, VDB etc).

Precisely. If you replace AIGCP with CPA in the third part of Alpe's post and take out the reference to Boyer, it's correct.

Not that you'd expect anything else, with Cédric Vasseur heading it.

 

[Sheltowee]

It's nice to see Silence-Lotto gets to view the blood passport data, everyone else has seems to have heard nothing. Back in February UCI boss Pat "Chief Wiggum" McQuaid announced anti-doping prosecutions "within days or weeks" but months later, nothing.

After Chief Wiffum got raped last year by the ASO, he asks for permission before acting. ASO have not given the OK for the Chief to do his prosecutions because it's probably not in their best monetary interests at this time. You saw what happened to the AFLD when they went after No Pants Lance. Embarassment. Back down clowns.

 

[BigBoat]

Bio Passp....Bla blahaha... In Pro Cycling I see they still have "refills", good smarts and "pay offs."

Nobody else will be busted to spill the beans. Kohl can be put at the bottom of the page and ingored easily. He's only one "cheat."

 

[Escarabajo]

Finally. Something I posted before. After Puerto broke, La Gazetta tracked down a recently retired Italian racer who had placed well in the Giro in years past. He anonymously said pretty much exactly what Kohl did about it being impossible to win without doping, that teams covered things up, etc. Almost to the word.[/QUOTE]

Well, continue. Finish the story, which year he placed good in the Giro Alpe.

 

[Stani Kléber]

Riders have been saying the same for a long time, that it's impossible to win without doping. But I think this is cultural, they've grown up in an environment where everyone dopes and so it's impossible for them to imagine a world where others don't dope.

For example, take Dan Martin from Garmin, he's just finished second in the Tour of Catalunya, is this impossible? Philippe Gilbert is regarded as totally clean, are his two wins in the Het Volk impossible? Did Sandy Casar end the 2006 Giro d'Italia ahead of known Fuentes clients? Are Thomas Lovkquist or Mark Cavendish doping?

Those who just shrug their shoulders and say "you have to dope" are endulging in self-justification and an attempt at moral relativism, their saying "everyone else does it so I'm not any worse than them" rather than saying "I cheated colleagues, I flouted the rules, I risked my health, I broke the law".

 

[mortimer99]

more doping

You would think you could make doping a lot easier to address. If the DS and the rider that was caught were both suspended for 2 years, maybe the teams would really start caring about doping in their team. In addition, ban the team from the event that where they were caught for 2 years as well.

With this hanging over their heads, all of a sudden you would have some very interested management and sponsors that would be watching their riders very closely.

it sucks now because as it stand management says, "We need to win, but if you dope and get caught your on your own... but we need to win." Spread the punishment around and that statement may change.

 

[Stani Kléber]

There is an element where the team management are pressing the riders to dope but then pretend they are shocked, as shocked as Captain Renault in Casablanca, when their rider is caught. But you can't make managers pay the price, sometimes they are not responsible for their riders, I doubt that Cofidis's Eric Boyer knew or Moreni's 2007 testosterone habit or that Gerolsteiner's Holczer knew Kohl and Schumacher were using CERA.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Thanks Stani and Issoisso for the clarification. I posted without looking into it enough.

Well, continue. Finish the story, which year he placed good in the Giro Alpe.

He wouldn't reveal that, and the LaGazetta guys weren't more specific. Only that he had recently retired (as of 2006). I can't seem to find it on the web, but the one thing that came to mind was that the guy was now working in construction. Let me see if I can dig it up.