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Kohl retires

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Mar 19, 2009
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Stani Kl&#233 said:
I doubt that Cofidis's Eric Boyer knew or Moreni's 2007 testosterone habit or that Gerolsteiner's Holczer knew Kohl and Schumacher were using CERA.

“What do you recommend when mixing Insulin and HGH (human growth hormone)? What are the safe doses for Synachten? (ACTH - red.) How long are you positive with 2.5mg of Androderm? What are the doses for euphyllin and theophyllin? Can you send me some information on NESP? What’s the procedure when using lutrelef, (zeg maar: LHRH - red.) uvocal, (bovine thymushormoon, stimuleert immuunsysteem) timonox (? - red) and geref 50? Thanks, see you at Ghent-Wevelgem."

-Questions of a Gerolsteiner employee. :)
 
Uh, can I ask where you got that? I wouldn't think most "employees" would know what most of that is, or does. Wait, by employee to you not mean "rider" but "soigner"?

Reading over this Kohl info again, I have this rather sinking feeling we're going to see some sort of police raid or sting operation this year that makes Operation Puerto or Oil For Drugs look like a quaint memory. Sad if it truly gets to the point where the police are the only ones who can clean the sport up at all. But it seems we're already there.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Uh, can I ask where you got that? I wouldn't think most "employees" would know what most of that is, or does. Wait, by employee to you not mean "rider" but "soigner"?

Reading over this Kohl info again, I have this rather sinking feeling we're going to see some sort of police raid or sting operation this year that makes Operation Puerto or Oil For Drugs look like a quaint memory. Sad if it truly gets to the point where the police are the only ones who can clean the sport up at all. But it seems we're already there.

sorry soigner.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Uh, can I ask where you got that? I wouldn't think most "employees" would know what most of that is, or does. Wait, by employee to you not mean "rider" but "soigner"?

Reading over this Kohl info again, I have this rather sinking feeling we're going to see some sort of police raid or sting operation this year that makes Operation Puerto or Oil For Drugs look like a quaint memory. Sad if it truly gets to the point where the police are the only ones who can clean the sport up at all. But it seems we're already there.

It's the e-mail of a danish Gerolsteiner soigneur back in 2005 to some random doctor. Can't remember the soigneur's name, but it was made public during the Tour and he was fired on the spot.
 
May 12, 2009
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Pretty hard to believe Holczer couldn't have know about the doping at Gerolst. Seems to have been a very well-established deal.
He would have had to look the other way very hard.
 
ingsve said:
Of course that's what he thinks. His thinking was already flawed to begin with. Since he himself was cheating he was probably justifying that to himself with the belief that everyone is cheating. And if he thought that then he probably thinks that now...

His thinking wasn't flawed, just realistic. In modern sport doping is the order of the day. To believe that the champions compete on "bread and water" alone is just stupid (no offence). That a rider has to think in this manner isn't because anybody wants to. In fact he probalby hates to think so.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
I have this rather sinking feeling we're going to see some sort of police raid or sting operation this year that makes Operation Puerto or Oil For Drugs look like a quaint memory. Sad if it truly gets to the point where the police are the only ones who can clean the sport up at all. But it seems we're already there.
It's possible, there are blood bags seized by the Austrian authorities. If they start asking for DNA tests, things might get interesting. Similarly, if they start threatening Matschiner with prison, he might start singing about his other clients and begin to name others, cyclists and non-cyclists.
 
May 13, 2009
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He admitted (among others) that he used EPO, CERA, HGH, steroids, insulin, and 2 liters of his own, packed blood during the 2008 TdF. He says that out of 200 tests, at least 100 should've come back positive. Some tests were conducted just a few hours after he doped. Still, only two positives for CERA.

I think it is clear that athletes know just how much they can take without testing positive. Whenever something new comes out such as CERA, a few will be caught, but then everybody learns how much is 'safe' to take.

Targeted testing with more unusual tests such as isotope ratios could probably catch a few more until they adapt.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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They are not using EPO at all anymore (CERA epo) or Dynepo (human identical.) To risky!

They are just blood doping with their own blood. There is a preserving solution that allows for minimal cell death during the freezing process. So they cant be caught based on dead cells. Its all about the storage solution used.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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BigBoat said:
They are not using EPO at all anymore (CERA epo) or Dynepo (human identical.) To risky!

They are just blood doping with their own blood. There is a preserving solution that allows for minimal cell death during the freezing process. So they cant be caught based on dead cells. Its all about the storage solution used.
Hematide, HIF stabilizers.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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BigBoat said:
They are just blood doping with their own blood. There is a preserving solution that allows for minimal cell death during the freezing process. So they cant be caught based on dead cells. Its all about the storage solution used.

No, but they should be able to detect additives such as the anticoagulant citrate phosphate dextrose, and other inherent chemicals such as 2,3-diphosphoglycerate levels (which decreases with storage time).
 
Mar 11, 2009
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franciep10 said:
Maybe Big Boat isn't the crazy guy in the alley shouting at the sky anymore.

Perhaps, afterall it did turn out that Jerry Fletcher wasn't as loony as he first appeared.... ;)

00099428.jpg


"July eighth, 1979, all the fathers of Nobel Prize winners were rounded up by United Nations military units, all right, and actually forced at gunpoint to give semen samples in little plastic jars, which are now stored below Rockefeller Center underneath the ice skating rink."
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Epicycle said:
Hematide, HIF stabilizers.

Could be but they can test for those soon. Princeton started to develop a test for HIF... I believe.

You know I think their just blood doping with their own blood (like Kohl described he did 3 times during the Tour. 650 cc " blood refills." lol

..... in a big Euro race you will not get a top placing without a jacked crit. Thats for certain. Some lower tier riders and "servants" on the ProTour might just be on some HGH, slin though. IF a top rider isnt tested OCC you can assume their completely jacked on epo. lol :)
 
Mar 19, 2009
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BigBoat said:
Could be but they can test for those soon. Princeton started to develop a test for HIF... I believe.
The test won't be available for a long time. They just started studying the effects of the therapy.
 
May 9, 2009
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Is saying that the riders now know how much they can get away with before being deemed "positive", the same thing as saying that the riders are doping in a fairly controlled manner now that has much less health risk than in the past, either because they are using doctors or are simply using much safer dosages of anything potentially damaging? Certainly we don't hear much about anyone suffering ill effects these days, and the poster child "super responder" himself is now so healthy he can even impregnate women with his previously sterile "juan pelota".

If so...are we just left with the "fairness" argument?
 
Mar 19, 2009
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stephens said:
Is saying that the riders now know how much they can get away with before being deemed "positive", the same thing as saying that the riders are doping in a fairly controlled manner now that has much less health risk than in the past, either because they are using doctors or are simply using much safer dosages of anything potentially damaging? Certainly we don't hear much about anyone suffering ill effects these days, and the poster child "super responder" himself is now so healthy he can even impregnate women with his previously sterile "juan pelota".

If so...are we just left with the "fairness" argument?

Well I will say this... Its not really fair with all the testing they have for epo. Not every Tour rider can even blood dope with their own blood. Entire teams (smaller outfits) are trying to race without jacked crits which means not winning jack.

There's gene doping and 02 carriers that are unknown... There's stuff I dont know about and compared to Dr. Ferrari I'm in Kindergarten at best.

Not many a rider got to work with Ferrari and in the 1990s EVERY top rider was on epo. But you see the Ferrari or Chechini cleint always would end up winning the big cheese.
 
slcbiker said:
Pretty hard to believe Holczer couldn't have know about the doping at Gerolst. Seems to have been a very well-established deal.
I think he meant well, but he was other extremely naive, or did as Riis and willfully turned away. He does seem pretty adamant about being wronged, but then again, what else could he say?

luckyboy said:
I thought the UCI couldn't or won't test for CERA or dynepo? Also, the amount you know about all this is amazing, really informative :eek:

They can see high probability of high amounts of Dynepo, but it's not part of their test. Still, if someone showed up with it in them, it's likely the word would get out and they'd be damned. So it's not likely much Dynepo (or Hemopure or any of the other human identicals) are being used much, especially during a race.

People bash BB, but the guy is very knowledgeable, if a bit bitter. ;)

BigBoat said:
lol. They could be gene doping too.

It's possible, at least as far as Repoxygen goes. But Thomas Springstein had a very hard time attaining it, and when WADA tried to recreate his path of purchase, all they were really getting is regular EPO with a Repoxygen sticker on it.

Princeton's tests are a long ways away. And even then, just like the tests for Cera or anything else, it's highly unlikely it would be foolproof, or anything close.

As to stem-cell gene therapy, God only knows. But that is the very last thing I would do to myself. Potentially scary repercussions down the line no one knows about.

stephens said:
Is saying that the riders now know how much they can get away with before being deemed "positive", the same thing as saying that the riders are doping in a fairly controlled manner...If so...are we just left with the "fairness" argument?

That's an interesting point. For example, even without a physician or even soigner help you could inject yourself with EPO and bring your own crit to 49, maybe more, and as long as you were getting exercise and staying hydrated, and kept it monitored, you'd be likely to have zero side effects, ever. You'd have to pump yourself with a lot of HGH or T also to get into trouble as well. Microdosing most of this crap like they are doing is fairly harmless. The biggest risk really of blood re-infusion comes from clotting or bacterial infection (or cross contamination), which is why you don't want to be doing this without proper medical supervision.
 
stephens said:
Is saying that the riders now know how much they can get away with before being deemed "positive", the same thing as saying that the riders are doping in a fairly controlled manner now that has much less health risk than in the past, either because they are using doctors or are simply using much safer dosages of anything potentially damaging? Certainly we don't hear much about anyone suffering ill effects these days, and the poster child "super responder" himself is now so healthy he can even impregnate women with his previously sterile "juan pelota".

If so...are we just left with the "fairness" argument?

Well there's a reason the various Dr. Conconi's, Ferrari's, Santuccioni's Fuente's have found such a well paying clientel within the sport world. Fuente's defense was brilliant. He said he was merely safegaurding a riders health! Given that pro cycling is so punishing on the human organism, Fuente's "therpies," in accelerating recovery and enhancing power output, protected the athlete form the adverse health effects events such as the Tour inflicted upon the rider. Rather than prosecuting the man, Fuentes argued the world of sport whould be greatful for protecting the athlete's health his work was accomplishing.

Conconi was paid by the Italian Olympic Fed. back in the 80's to test the effects of EPO in riders' performances. His ground breaking research went on to dramatically change bike racing. Conconi was the mentor of Ferrari, who went on to become the most sought after preparatory medic for pro riders in the 90's till he was stopped by CONI. For a legal technicality, the Italian court wasn't able to punish Ferrari for illegal medical practice by doping his clients (among whom agt the time was Lance Armstrong), but the evidence was stacked against him enough for it to prohibit Ferrari from dealing with athletes again.

These doctors exist because athletes know they are taking health risks by doping, but also know that they must dope to be competative at the Tour and the other major events. The doctors in addition to monitering the client's/riders' health, also try to ensure, as much as possible, that the client won't get busted at the anti-doping controls. Thus they provide an indespensible service and probably have taken doping to a scientific level such that the athlete truly does risk little health wise and that this has probably "standardized" doping practice to a fairly "fair" level within the peleton.

The catch is, as BigBoat has correctly stated, not every body reacts to in the same way to doping products. In this sense, then, there is an inherent advantage/disadvantage treatment outcome which means that there is never really a level playing field. But Nature works that way too in giving some bodies mor cilindars than others, so I suppose the concept of a "level playing" field doesn't really exist.

The other problem with how doping works given it's illegality, is that the higher paid athletes get to be on the latest, most expensive and most effective products before the lesser paid athletes do. Or can afford the services of the most expensive medics to ensure the highest possible chance for effective therapy. Kind of like insider trading. So I believe that until doping remains an underground and to a certain degree elitest practice, the benefits which some riders enjoy from it will be to the disadvantage of others performances. So either doping is defeated, which isn't very realistic, or else it becomes democratic, accessible to all and on a socialized basis.

By the way rumor has it that there is a new doping substance being used this year in the peleton, for which no test exists yet. Cera was evidently a real flop. Next!
 
Mar 11, 2009
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BigBoat said:
..... in a big Euro race you will not get a top placing without a jacked crit. Thats for certain.
So Dan Martin's just finished second in the Tour of Catalunya, a hard stage race. Are you certain he's doping. I believe he is not.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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rhubroma said:
By the way rumor has it that there is a new doping substance being used this year in the peleton, for which no test exists yet. Cera was evidently a real flop. Next!

I'd say it's a pretty solid rumour, considering that the Fuji-Servetto team doctor was the one who alerted the press to riders using that new substance.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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elapid said:
No, but they should be able to detect additives such as the anticoagulant citrate phosphate dextrose, and other inherent chemicals such as 2,3-diphosphoglycerate levels (which decreases with storage time).

Also the blood has to be thawed and diluted properly before it can be given. There are "Veys" to make sure teh have no irregularities.