Kohl retires

[Stani Kléber]

Arguably more money could clean things up. For example, many big teams don't even have a full-time coach on their staff, no wonder the likes of Schleck pay for "training plans" from Fuentes.

Similarly, a full Garmin-style program can guarantee a sponsor that the chances of scandal will be reduced. Look at the teams racing today, for a popular sport most of the companies involved are very small. There is no Coca-Cola, no Danone, no Toyota etc. Today's stage of the Giro was won by a manufacturer of PVC windows. Big, reputable companies do not want the risk.

Doping is a cultural thing, you need to hire the right people to run the team, carefully pick the right riders and to support them with good staff.

 

[elapid]

I am not sure how much money is in cross-country skiing, but there is a lot of EPO and autologous blood transfusions in cross-country skiing. I would have thought that there would not be the megabucks involved as in cycling and other big sports, yet doping is still prevalent. I agree that I think it is cultural and not related to money.

 

[BroDeal]

I am not sure how much money is in cross-country skiing, but there is a lot of EPO and autologous blood transfusions in cross-country skiing. I would have thought that there would not be the megabucks involved as in cycling and other big sports, yet doping is still prevalent. I agree that I think it is cultural and not related to money.

Doping has become a lot cheaper. The chinese sourced EPO variants are reasonably priced. Testosterone is cheap; get a doctor's prescription and your insurance may pay for it. Lots of people use steroids simply so they look good and have a better chance of scoring with the honeys. Even when there is little money at stake, like amateur racing in the U.S., people will still dope--even if it is just for bragging rights amongst their bros at the office.

 

[BikeCentric]

Even when there is little money at stake, like amateur racing in the U.S., people will still dope--even if it is just for bragging rights amongst their bros at the office.

Agreed. At the root of it a lot of people dope for personal pride and the respect of their peers - they either don't care or simply don't see it as a case of "cheating/fooling themselves." Money is an added temptation and certainly the driving force for many. Of course, money is simply another route to respect/power for many.

 

[RdBiker]

I am not sure how much money is in cross-country skiing, but there is a lot of EPO and autologous blood transfusions in cross-country skiing. I would have thought that there would not be the megabucks involved as in cycling and other big sports, yet doping is still prevalent. I agree that I think it is cultural and not related to money.

Well at least in the Nordic countries it's one of the most followed sports. Its popularity isn't what it used to be twenty years ago since this is a kinda traditional sport for these countries but still it's a big thing. When you have lots of followers you get lots of tv time and then the sponsors come into play. So the prize money isn't that huge for the winners but the money is with the sponsors.

So yes, money and fame rule in cross-country skiing too.

 

[RdBiker]

Edit: Double post.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

What would be necessary for cycling to become clean? Shorter stages? More rest days? Or is it dirty no matter what?

It's not money. Even if the money were socialized, or no pay, glory would still rule. Kayle Leogrande bought plenty of EPO for $500.

Hematological full blood volume testing would go a long way towards cutting down on O2 carriers. Because one could dilute or use various cutters and it wouldn't matter because the volume would show up as fluctuating wildly and draw a big red flag. Though HGH, IGF, testosterone, and similars would not show up on such a test. Stem-cell gene doping (should anyone dare try) depending on how much you consistently pumped yourself with and the long-term alterations to your DNA it caused may not either.

 

[slowoldman]

It's not money. Even if the money were socialized, or no pay, glory would still rule. Kayle Leogrande bought plenty of EPO for $500.

Hematological full blood volume testing would go a long way towards cutting down on O2 carriers. Because one could dilute or use various cutters and it wouldn't matter because the volume would show up as fluctuating wildly and draw a big red flag. Though HGH, IGF, testosterone, and similars would not show up on such a test. Stem-cell gene doping (should anyone dare try) depending on how much you consistently pumped yourself with and the long-term alterations to your DNA it caused may not either.

What glory??? Seriously, if you beat me or guys like me when you are on the stuff, what does it prove? I live in the same area as Kayle, he used to do many of the same rides I ride. He and a few others that everybody around here knows are on the gear constantly kill us. What does it prove? Can you look yourself in the mirror at night and really think you deserved it? If you can, you are a heck of a liar. By the way, Kayle hasn't been on very many rides since all of this stuff came down.

Edit: Alpe, not picking on you, just don't get the doping mindset, just ranting.

 

[BikeCentric]

What glory??? Seriously, if you beat me or guys like me when you are on the stuff, what does it prove? I live in the same area as Kayle, he used to do many of the same rides I ride. He and a few others that everybody around here knows are on the gear constantly kill us. What does it prove? Can you look yourself in the mirror at night and really think you deserved it? If you can, you are a heck of a liar. By the way, Kayle hasn't been on very many rides since all of this stuff came down.

I think a lot of people have an "end justifies the means mentality" but I agree with you, I really don't care if I get beat by a doper because I'm an amateur (Elite 3) and race when I feel like it, train mostly for health and fitness and racing results second.

That being said, I'm interested in the personal anecdotes that you and others have posted on here regarding their local racing and riding. I've raced in the Elite (used to be "Senior") 4's and then 3's for about the last 6 years, have raced Sport and then Expert mountain biking, and also race Cat B cyclocross. I have a pretty strong feeling that the Elites are pretty darn clean racers. I mean I know a lot of racers and I have never heard of anyone doping in the packs that I race in, and I think that this makes sense because when you're talking about people racing in the 3's they only go against other amateurs. Most people don't want to upgrade to 2 because they don't want to train more and don't have any desire to go pro, they have day jobs, etc.

Now that being said, it seems the local P/1/2 and the Masters 1/2/3 packs may be a different story. I hear rumours of EPO and HGH use in those packs when on group rides and at races, but nothing substantiated.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

No problem Slow. I personally wouldn't feel good about winning while on EPO. But I'd venture to guess some people don't care, and a lot more justify it mentally because they assume others are jacked as well, or if they aren't now, they might have been before, or will in the future.

After all, we're not talking Cat 3 rec racers here.

 

[slowoldman]

I think a lot of people have an "end justifies the means mentality" but I agree with you, I really don't care if I get beat by a doper because I'm an amateur (Elite 3) and race when I feel like it, train mostly for health and fitness and racing results second.

That being said, I'm interested in the personal anecdotes that you and others have posted on here regarding their local racing and riding. I've raced in the Elite (used to be "Senior") 4's and then 3's for about the last 6 years, have raced Sport and then Expert mountain biking, and also race Cat B cyclocross. I have a pretty strong feeling that the Elites are pretty darn clean racers. I mean I know a lot of racers and I have never heard of anyone doping in the packs that I race in, and I think that this makes sense because when you're talking about people racing in the 3's they only go against other amateurs. Most people don't want to upgrade to 2 because they don't want to train more and don't have any desire to go pro, they have day jobs, etc.

Now that being said, it seems the local P/1/2 and the Masters 1/2/3 packs may be a different story. I hear rumours of EPO and HGH use in those packs when on group rides and at races, but nothing substantiated.

I think that it is more common than you would assume, at least it is here in So Cal. I race masters 1/2/3 currently and I can tell you that many here are believed to participate in pharmaceutical enhancement. Personally, I know of two guys from a prior team of mine did. One raced masters the other was a Category 4! The masters racer looked me right in the face and told me what he was taking and how he acquired it (an overseas website). The Cat 4 racer has no idea that I know, but a mutual friend showed me the shipments that said racer had shipped to his house so his wife wouldn't find out. I know of many other people but the evidence is what I consider to be reliable, but unproven as of now so I really shouldn't comment on those.

 

[BikeCentric]

I think that it is more common than you would assume, at least it is here in So Cal. I race masters 1/2/3 currently and I can tell you that many here are believed to participate in pharmaceutical enhancement. Personally, I know of two guys from a prior team of mine did. One raced masters the other was a Category 4! The masters racer looked me right in the face and told me what he was taking and how he acquired it (an overseas website). The Cat 4 racer has no idea that I know, but a mutual friend showed me the shipments that said racer had shipped to his house so his wife wouldn't find out. I know of many other people but the evidence is what I consider to be reliable, but unproven as of now so I really shouldn't comment on those.

I have to just shake my head, ya know? I'm going to take the "glass half full" approach here and therefore be happy with what modest personal success I've had in racing and also be happy I elected to not attempt to take it any further than I have.

 

[BigBoat]

There are many very good cat 1 riders not doped. Many pros on more minor teams are not... The masters 30+ and 40+ packs have doping and lots of "anti aging" treatment. LOL

Where doping really "hits" is the pros since everybody at that level "has some talent." You see when one talented rider is doped and another talented rider isnt the doped rider will win everything. Now for the Tour I would love to see doping allowed and in fact if everybody was allowed to dope in the Tour I think that would be great entertainment. You see some cannot get a 650cc "blood refill" for the key stages and that F-s the race up because guys that could do good dont.

 

[Anonymous]

Now for the Tour I would love to see doping allowed and in fact if everybody was allowed to dope in the Tour I think that would be great entertainment. You see some cannot get a 650cc "blood refill" for the key stages and that F-s the race up because guys that could do good dont.

oh god.. humour at 2am.. i cant cope..

i assume it was humour, or do i have to raise the argument of legalised doping not being fair on those who ethically do not want to dope..

maybe we should have two tours.. or split the tour into cat C and D with seperate jerseys, for the clean and the doped..

 

[Anonymous]

They are not using EPO at all anymore (CERA epo) or Dynepo (human identical.) To risky!

They are just blood doping with their own blood. There is a preserving solution that allows for minimal cell death during the freezing process. So they cant be caught based on dead cells. Its all about the storage solution used.

very interesting, how did you come by this knowledge?
can you point a poor soul to the real skinny?

 

[rhubroma]

I am not sure how much money is in cross-country skiing, but there is a lot of EPO and autologous blood transfusions in cross-country skiing. I would have thought that there would not be the megabucks involved as in cycling and other big sports, yet doping is still prevalent. I agree that I think it is cultural and not related to money.

You hit the nail on the head. It's cultural. When I first came to Italy in the mid-90's to race, that's when I was introduced to this culture. Naturally not everyone participated in it, not everyone was taking una bomba ("a bomb"). But many were and, of course, it has its costs but they were not insurmountable. For example there where guys on my team who were spending 3-5 thousand euro (of course back then it was in lira) minimum for Nesp, testosterone and insulin and road the season at two speeds, in a manner of speaking. How do I know this for the skeptics: they told me. And I've been in hotel rooms watching guys inject themselves with testosterone and EPO. In any case, while on pane e aqcua ("bread and water"), they were pretty much pack racers, after the "treatments" they were making the breaks, if not winning.

One teammate had no problem keeping his stuff in the kitchen fridge, readily accessible to his wife and kid!

How widespread is doping to me among the pros? I don't know really. Given this culture, however, I'd say it's over 50% without egaggerationg. If were 90% I wouldn't be surprised at all. That it only involves a few "bad apples" is inconcievable though...as some on this forum want to believe.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Now for the Tour I would love to see doping allowed and in fact if everybody was allowed to dope in the Tour I think that would be great entertainment.

Sort of like the 1998 Romandie, where Festina guinea pig Laurent Dufaux was attacking on a climb 2k from the finish and sprinting uphill so hard all the way to the end he had to jam on the brakes going around corners.

Or Riis riding up the Hautecam in 1996 so fast, even when he sat down to rest for a minute he still rode everyone off his wheel, even to his own surprise.

I don't know that I'd use the word "entertaining" to describe it though.

 

[Escarabajo]

You hit the nail on the head. It's cultural. When I first came to Italy in the mid-90's to race, that's when I was introduced to this culture. Naturally not everyone participated in it, not everyone was taking una bomba ("a bomb"). But many were and, of course, it has its costs but they were not insurmountable. For example there where guys on my team who were spending 3-5 thousand euro (of course back then it was in lira) minimum for Nesp, testosterone and insulin and road the season at two speeds, in a manner of speaking. How do I know this for the skeptics: they told me. And I've been in hotel rooms watching guys inject themselves with testosterone and EPO. In any case, while on pane e aqcua ("bread and water"), they were pretty much pack racers, after the "treatments" they were making the breaks, if not winning.

One teammate had no problem keeping his stuff in the kitchen fridge, readily accessible to his wife and kid!

How widespread is doping to me among the pros? I don't know really. Given this culture, however, I'd say it's over 50% without egaggerationg. If were 90% I wouldn't be surprised at all. That it only involves a few "bad apples" is inconcievable though...as some on this forum want to believe.

How did you make it riding without the doping? Was it really impossible or with hard training you could beat these guys? Sometimes I have the feeling that the riders that dope decrease on the level of training and therefore loose the edge completly when it comes to racing.

 

[BroDeal]

Sometimes I have the feeling that the riders that dope decrease on the level of training and therefore loose the edge completly when it comes to racing.

I don't think this is right. Lots of drugs allow you to train harder than you can without doping. For example, the training schedules used by body builders are impossible to do without the recovery benefits of steroids.

 

[Escarabajo]

I don't think this is right. Lots of drugs allow you to train harder than you can without doping. For example, the training schedules used by body builders are impossible to do without the recovery benefits of steroids.

Good point. thanks.

 

[nobody]

I don't think this is right. Lots of drugs allow you to train harder than you can without doping. For example, the training schedules used by body builders are impossible to do without the recovery benefits of steroids.

And it's the same for cycling, riders have a worst hct after many days of training so they should to rest without EPO or fresh blood.

 

[Escarabajo]

I don't think this is right. Lots of drugs allow you to train harder than you can without doping. For example, the training schedules used by body builders are impossible to do without the recovery benefits of steroids.

If you train hard. I meant if you focus too much on the doping more than the training like Merckx once said then it can become a problem. But if that person is really committed to training harder then you are completely right.
Thanks.

 

[BikeCentric]

If you train hard. I meant if you focus too much on the doping more than the training like Merckx once said then it can become a problem. But if that person is really committed to training harder then you are completely right.
Thanks.

One thing you have to remember about the vast majority of these guys: they are already very genetically gifted, great athletes, know how to train hard and have been doing that for many years. Doping is just the icing on the cake and allows a disciplined athlete to race and train harder than would be otherwise possible and then recover faster so they can do it again.

 

[Escarabajo]

One thing you have to remember about the vast majority of the guys: they are already very genetically gifted, great athletes, know how to train hard and have been doing that for many years. Doping is just the icing on the cake and allows a disciplined athlete to race and train harder than would be otherwise possible and then recover faster so they can do it again.

Thanks. Point taken.

 

[rhubroma]

How did you make it riding without the doping? Was it really impossible or with hard training you could beat these guys? Sometimes I have the feeling that the riders that dope decrease on the level of training and therefore loose the edge completly when it comes to racing.

Well I didn't make it. I mean I could do some good rides, but in the end the engine wasn't big enough. The cream keeps rising to the top and I wasn't the cream, thus wasn't picked up by a pro team.

Now if everything was at an even playing level, and my training was optimal and the head was as good as the legs then I could have my chance on a climber's course. But really that meant top 5. If there were guys on EPO, then probably I got ripped off you know.

The problem is that while you know if you're clean (or not), you don't know who among your competition is clean (or not). That's the bad thing, the doubt. Yet I know that there were guys who "got help," which meant you never knew your true worth. And I had guys recommend doping as the only way to win, some believed that without "getting help" it was just impossible to win beyond a certain level.

I don't want to make any excuses though. There were guys who could just ride harder, faster, longer. Period. In the end, it was enough that I got to ride in races with them. But it is that "doubt" which is the really ****ed-up, nasty thing. Becuase doping exists and sometimes you got droped not by someone who was naturally superior, but by one who had less scrupples, was all the more sly. But they weren't the true champions. Not those guys. They'd probably score a year's contract, then blow their engines cause they by doping put a Ferrari motor in their Fiat body. No the real talents moved forward cause they're the real cream and were born with a Ferrari motor. And so when it came time to dope, for them it was just like putting in optimal fuel and not an entirely new and incompatible engine. Their motor's systems could just handle it no problem and they'd carburate in the smoothest and most efficient manner.

No it's not impossible to finish races without dope, but you need to be super prepared. The problem isn't finishing it's getting a noteworthy result without doping once you arrive at a certain level. Unless you are just that damn good. But after a certain level, being that damn good becomes an increasing rarity when doping is involved. So even the best talent who know's he's clean, has to either accept living with the torment of doubt (unless one believed doping doesn't exist), or increasingly sees that playing the game by his ethical standards is in direct conflict with getting the major results which may mean the difference between signing a contract or not. Many an aspiring damn good cyclist simply can't resist the temptation of doping and often finds an alibi in the conviction (not unwarented) that his main competitors have caved in as he's about to do. So to him doping isn't cheating any more, in so far as cheating means one is looking to get an unfair edge on the competition through ilicit means. No to him it is simply bringing his body back up to a fitness level where he can no longer live with the doubt, because he knows, or at least believes, that he has put himself back in a game that's played "in a certain way." And that if everyone were on bread and water only (which he is fully cinvinced can't be the case), he would have the same chances for honest victory as he does by doping with everyone else.

This to me seems to synthesize what is meant by a "culture" of doping. And from a certain perspective its rational is at least rationally based and thus comprehensible. The problem is, and I don't want to sound like a broken record, the DOUBT. Of course in strickt terms of the rules doping is unethical, however in terms of the psychology of doping it is pointless to try and preach absolute morality (especially in today's society), when, as in the example above, there are rational means to transform what is legally against the rules into valid practice; when the very concept of cheating upon which ilegality of a practice is based is itself cast in doubt if not cancelled by this culture.