Kohl retires

[Stani Kléber]

Aranesp has been around for some time. Museeuw was taking it and using the code name "Wasp" when discussing it by SMS or phonecalls.

In a message to Museeuw dated July 7, 2003, Landuyt wrote, “Now you should take 80 to 100 wasps, and upon departure on July 9, minimum 40 and maximum 60, then you will be clean as of July 19.”

On July 27, Museeuw sent a message to Landuyt saying: “I have 52″, to which Landuyt responded “Take salt and drink a lot.” One day later, Landuyt again received an SMS from Museeuw that said “Still 52″, to which he replied, “Snuff salt and drink a lot.”

 

[Bala Verde]

Aranesp has been around for some time. Museeuw was taking it and using the code name "Wasp" when discussing it by SMS or phonecalls.

Thanks, I didn't know it had been around for so long already!

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Darbeprotein is the non-trade name for it. It's basically a form of synthetic EPO actually, and has become one of the easier forms of EPO to detect, so it's not likely used very often. It was widely exposed during the 2002 Winter Olympics when several XC skiers were found to be jacked on it using then new testing procedures. So seven years later, it's almost never used.

Guys today using EPO and not wanting to get caught have moved on to Hemopure, or just Dynepo, probably Hematide or Hemomer, or other PFCEs and HBOCs that are almost impossible to detect, and/or plasma expanders that don't raise your hematocrit much. The list goes on and on.

 

[dgodave]

I dreamed of being a pro bike racer when I was young. Thank god that didnt pan out.
.
.

 

[nobody]

The UCI threatened to sue him when he came out with wild claims of blood banks and Fuentes. 12 months later....

Did they apology for their mistake and the fact that he failed to die?

 

[BigBoat]

Darbeprotein is the non-trade name for it. It's basically a form of synthetic EPO actually, and has become one of the easier forms of EPO to detect, so it's not likely used very often. It was widely exposed during the 2002 Winter Olympics when several XC skiers were found to be jacked on it using then new testing procedures. So seven years later, it's almost never used.

Guys today using EPO and not wanting to get caught have moved on to Hemopure, or just Dynepo

Their not bothering with hemopure because its tested for...but other stuff I sure as hell havnt heard of. They are too scared most of them to try and dope with epo (dynepo). Some might still microdose epo and these riders on the ProTour could be caught.. I'm just not sure they will be as things are now. But more minor teams who are not OCC tested jack epo like its candy.

But the biggy on the Protour has to be blood doping with your own blood, that jacks crit the same as epo. Same exact effect and its very much peanuts with proper medical support and knowhow and some money in the bank.... But I think they can only get to maybe 54% instead of days of old when they all had 57-59 constantly on epo.

 

[BroDeal]

Guys today using EPO and not wanting to get caught have moved on to Hemopure, or just Dynepo, probably Hematide or Hemomer, or other PFCEs and HBOCs that are almost impossible to detect, and/or plasma expanders that don't raise your hematocrit much. The list goes on and on.

There are a bunch of bio-similar EPOs being manufactured in China, India, and Russia as well as new products from legitimiate Western pharmaceutical companies. Researchers and testers have decried the sad situation where it is obvious that there is artificial EPO in a sample but since it does not match the criteria for a specific known version then it cannot be called a positive.

 

[fltacks]

my personal answer to peloton doping

Outstanding posts rhubroma. You all know where I stand on the issue, personally. Although, as I have said before, I completely understand the pressure in the pro ranks to engage in enhancement. You broke it down and made it simple for the layperson to understand that pressure.

As a side note, I also appreciated your post on the differing cultural attitudes toward the problem. Makes it easier to understand other viewpoints, as I would hope it would help them to understand mine.

I must say, this is easily the best, most thoughtful thread I think I've ever read online about any subject. Bravo to all the posters.

What rhubroma describes is a binary question: do I dope or not? There's no in-between answer, which is what makes it so interesting.

In my brief masters 45+ racing career, I decided early on that even in the amateur senior peloton in Miami there were enough dopers to make bunch-start racing a futile exercise. My answer: I focused almost exclusively on time trialing. Moreover, my focus was on the clock (which isn't doped), and my previous best times against said clock (knowing I wasn't doped). This way it didn't matter where I finished against anyone else, but rather whether I was getting better and faster. I progressed to where I got a 58:20 on a 40K time trial for an average speed of 25.3 mph, good enough for a 9th place finish at the State Championships. And guess what? NO ONE can take that (clean) result away from me.

Ah yes, the Race of Truth.

 

[rattler]

Kohl's sad state for indescretion

I'm a fan. Especially of those with long careers in this sport who ride ALL SEASON. As long as I can see emotion, cat & mouse attacks, solo efforts off the front or at the base of a climb, even the ones that almost stay clear....... I'll dig this sport.
These racers have to be discreet. It's harder than we imagine. Yeah the omerta is REAL. STFW.
For me, it's too much fun to get wrapped up in who's clean, who isn't.
The dope drama doesn't come close to most of the race drama.

 

[Escarabajo]

I must say, this is easily the best, most thoughtful thread I think I've ever read online about any subject. Bravo to all the posters.

What rhubroma describes is a binary question: do I dope or not? There's no in-between answer, which is what makes it so interesting.

In my brief masters 45+ racing career, I decided early on that even in the amateur senior peloton in Miami there were enough dopers to make bunch-start racing a futile exercise. My answer: I focused almost exclusively on time trialing. Moreover, my focus was on the clock (which isn't doped), and my previous best times against said clock (knowing I wasn't doped). This way it didn't matter where I finished against anyone else, but rather whether I was getting better and faster. I progressed to where I got a 58:20 on a 40K time trial for an average speed of 25.3 mph, good enough for a 9th place finish at the State Championships. And guess what? NO ONE can take that (clean) result away from me.

Ah yes, the Race of Truth.

Good for you. Thanks for sharing with us.

 

[Anonymous]

Jeebus! Armstrong fans...

"Listen, my son. Trust no one! You can count on no one but yourself. Improve your skills, son. Harden your body. Become a number one man. Do not ever let anyone beat you!" -- Gekitotsu! Satsujin ken


thems some words of wisdom you've got there.
what are you? like, 13?

 

[Anonymous]

Sometime after the 2003 Tour de France a guy named Jesus Manzano .... Well here is the link. Help yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Manzano

thanks for that .. quite a story.
he has detractors though from what i just read. sometimes it's hard to tell when someone is countering a claim like this, if they are mad because they don't want the truth out or mad because it's not the truth.
then he swore revenge when they fired him (fired for having sex during a stage race against behavior rules in his contract is what i read)
then he got paid 300,000 euros to tell the story, so the story had to be big. danger of embelishing.
so he's not pure.
still, i think there's truth in there somewhere. i just hate not being able to know what is and isn't.
some hearsay in there to.
i see a lot of hersay argued on the forum.
i'll try to point it out.

 

[BroDeal]

thems some words of wisdom you've got there.
what are you? like, 13?

The guy who argues that Armstrong was clean does not even know who Jesus Manzano is. It's like someone arguing that O.J. was innocent and halfway the conversation reveals his cluelessness by asking, "What is DNA?"

 

[slcbiker]

Seems to be about the same number of Kohl fans as there are Armstrong haters.
Leaving LA out of the equation (there's more than one thread for him), I'd have a whole lot more respect for Kohl and trust in his answers if he had come clean before getting caught. And as I remember it, he initially denied it afterwards.
Basically about the same thing as David Millar. I don't see how you can hold these guys who only confessed after getting busted as paragons of truth.

 

[BigBoat]

The guy who argues that Armstrong was clean does not even know who Jesus Manzano is. It's like someone arguing that O.J. was innocent and halfway the conversation reveals his cluelessness by asking, "What is DNA?"

There's nobody out there on this website that actually believes Lance has been clean. They might pretend to believe that though to get attention.

Its like believing those NFL lineman that shoot their mouths off about how their not taking any drugs... LOL which one's?

 

[nobody]

Seems to be about the same number of Kohl fans as there are Armstrong haters.
Leaving LA out of the equation (there's more than one thread for him), I'd have a whole lot more respect for Kohl and trust in his answers if he had come clean before getting caught. And as I remember it, he initially denied it afterwards.
Basically about the same thing as David Millar. I don't see how you can hold these guys who only confessed after getting busted as paragons of truth.

So where you but Basso, Landis, Valverde and other Puerto riders, Bruyneel, ... who continue to lie, to dope and to cheat?

 

[Escarabajo]

Seems to be about the same number of Kohl fans as there are Armstrong haters.
Leaving LA out of the equation (there's more than one thread for him), I'd have a whole lot more respect for Kohl and trust in his answers if he had come clean before getting caught. And as I remember it, he initially denied it afterwards.
Basically about the same thing as David Millar. I don't see how you can hold these guys who only confessed after getting busted as paragons of truth.

So you want them to talk while they are winning??
At least they are brave enough to come forward. And by doing that, they are already giving up the life in cycling.

 

[dgodave]

This thread makes me think that pro bike racing is either:
.
A. terminially sick, if not dead already
OR
B. not serious, like "pro" wrestling: cheating and drama on equal or higher footing than athletics.
.

 

[BikeCentric]

Seems to be about the same number of Kohl fans as there are Armstrong haters.
Leaving LA out of the equation (there's more than one thread for him), I'd have a whole lot more respect for Kohl and trust in his answers if he had come clean before getting caught. And as I remember it, he initially denied it afterwards.
Basically about the same thing as David Millar. I don't see how you can hold these guys who only confessed after getting busted as paragons of truth.

You never took economics 101 did you? What motivation does a rider have for stepping forward and breaking the omerta? By doing this they destroy their entire career, end any chance of any form of work in cycling again, are blacklisted/blackballed by all of their former friends and co-workers, suffer the disappointment and shame of their non-cycling friends and family members, and often endure death threats. Gee I wonder why more of them don't step forward?

 

[cyclelicious]

Why would a rider want to continue a career in a sport that’s rotten at it’s core? Maybe they don’t speak out, but they sure as hell should get out and find another career.

I have no respect for a rider that speaks when he’s cornered and even then not completely.

 

[ElChingon]

Why would a rider want to continue a career in a sport that’s rotten at it’s core? Maybe they don’t speak out, but they sure as hell should get out and find another career.

I have no respect for a rider that speaks when he’s cornered and even then not completely.

Well mainly money. Like most people they stick with the tried and true way of making money.

A cornered rider or any person is always subject to interpretation as to what they're saying is true, as they're cornered and some will make up stories to not do any time or pay a fine.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Good post BigB.

Cycling, like the NFL (or MLB, obviously) must be watched with blinders on. You can cheer on your favorites, and hope they act like good people, but as I said once before, the hope I have is that the sport is cleaner. But whenever I think it might be cleaning up a lot, someone like Kohl comes along and reminds me that little has changed since Willy Voet.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

So you want them to talk while they are winning??
At least they are brave enough to come forward. And by doing that, they are already giving up the life in cycling.

Come clean before being caught? This is not going to happen, partly because only the naive don't realize that almost everyone is doped to one degree or another. So just assume that almost everyone is doping. Therefore, why confess?

Also, when you confess, you'll find no matter how or when, those in power will discredit you, and even smear you. It doesn't matter if you were caught or not. The UCI, and most cycling organizations don't want to hear it. Take a look at Frankie Andreu. He confessed to EPO. Did the UCI or USADA go to him and ask "where did you get it?" "Did anyone know?" "How much did you use?" "Do you know anyone else using?" They didn't care and just wanted him to go away so they can keep pretending there are only a few bad apples and they are cleaning them out.

Actually, I'd say it's even worse thank this. Take a look at the 1997 World's, when Hein Verbruggen made necessary arrangements to ensure that the doping scandal surrounding Laurent Brochard during the 1997 World Championshipsnever became public.The doctors made a statement that Brochard was positive to Lidocaim when he was tested at the end of the race. But Verbruggen made certain that the statements were delayed and outside the time limit.

The UCI is now run by Hein's hand-picked buddy, Pat McQuaid, and his hand-picked staff.

All of this is the same reason why the UCI isn't interested in getting to the bottom of the Kohl situation. They want him to go away. This has little to do with stopping doping, and everything to do with image and money, and those in power retaining their power.

As to "quit and do something else" thinking if you don't like doping. Cyclists don't turn into junkies over night. Being assimilated into doping is a slow process and usually comes with winning. As Alex Zulle pointed out, everyone was doping, so it was race a bike this way, or retire and go back to painting houses (for about a tenth the money). It's really easy to say you would walk away, but when you're living it, it's another story.

 

[slcbiker]

True that the financial penalties are high for potentially confessing. But if one believes strongly enough in anti-doping, that wouldn't matter.
And by the same token, there is some motivation for someone like Kohl or Manzano to spin out big stories. They can sell books or get paid by reporters, and the more extravagant the accusations the better the price.

 

[Escarabajo]

True that the financial penalties are high for potentially confessing. But if one believes strongly enough in anti-doping, that wouldn't matter.
And by the same token, there is some motivation for someone like Kohl or Manzano to spin out big stories. They can sell books or get paid by reporters, and the more extravagant the accusations the better the price.

I think they loose more money by confessing. I am not sure how much they get paid by a cycling story. I don't think it is much. Maybe Alpe d'Huez have more info on this.
Thanks.