Kohl retires

[BikeCentric]

I think they loose more money by confessing. I am not sure how much they get paid by a cycling story. I don't think it is much. Maybe Alpe d'Huez have more info on this.
Thanks.

They could maybe get 10 or 20,000 Dollars for a good story and that would probably only be to a book author. Compare that to a salary of $100K per year for a domestique and $3.7 million for a top GC rider like Contador.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Contrary to popular belief, generally reporters or journalists do not pay for interviews. People hear about rare exceptions to this, and think it's the norm, but it's not. The most you're likely to get out of a reporter is them paying for your lunch.

As far as the cycling world goes, the only possible exception to this I know of is David Walsh compensating Emma O'Reilly, but to what degree is disputed. Lance defenders say she had an axe to grind and was interested in getting a piece of a reported $60 mil whilstleblower lawsuit Prentice Steffen intended to file and Walsh paid her to talk. Walsh initially said he didn't pay her for the interview, but later said he basically was covering her food, transportation and hotel to help her out as Emma feared for her safety after her diaries were discovered with all the salacious dealings of USPS.

I don't know how much money some of these cyclists have made from the books they have written, but probably not much. Maybe Lance' Its Not About... sold well. But you would have thought Floyd's Positively False would have sold well, and by every indication, he's now broke and sleeping on couches. I have a friend who was a best seller romance novelist. If you read these things, you'd certainly know her name, and while she's living fairly well, she's anything but rolling in the dough. I would have thought she'd be much better off than she is.

 

[Escarabajo]

Contrary to popular belief, generally reporters or journalists do not pay for interviews. People hear about rare exceptions to this, and think it's the norm, but it's not. The most you're likely to get out of a reporter is them paying for your lunch.

As far as the cycling world goes, the only possible exception to this I know of is David Walsh compensating Emma O'Reilly, but to what degree is disputed. Lance defenders say she had an axe to grind and was interested in getting a piece of a reported $60 mil whilstleblower lawsuit Prentice Steffen intended to file and Walsh paid her to talk. Walsh initially said he didn't pay her for the interview, but later said he basically was covering her food, transportation and hotel to help her out as Emma feared for her safety after her diaries were discovered with all the salacious dealings of USPS.

I don't know how much money some of these cyclists have made from the books they have written, but probably not much. Maybe Lance' Its Not About... sold well. But you would have thought Floyd's Positively False would have sold well, and by every indication, he's now broke and sleeping on couches. I have a friend who was a best seller romance novelist. If you read these things, you'd certainly know her name, and while she's living fairly well, she's anything but rolling in the dough. I would have thought she'd be much better off than she is.

Thanks Alpe.

I forgot to mention that the only countries that looks to be putting pressure or cornering the riders in order to get a full confession is Germany and Austria. Especially Germany. These countries seems to be the ones really trying to do something for some reason. Look at the riders that have fully confessed: Jorge Jaksche, Patrick Sinkewitz, and Bernard Kohl. Jan Ulrich has not been able to confess because of the huge economic implications that they want to impose on him, but he was put a lot of pressure to confess also. Kloden was chase down and finally got caught. And it is obvious that if a country wanted to do something it would have done it long time ago like Germany. It does not take a genius to know that these riders can not work alone. They need medical guidance. The type of doping that they are doing is an organize crime (Like the ones that Alcapone and Pablo Escobar used to do. And you guys know who the Godfather is?). So the National Sporting Federation or the Judge is not going to take garbage for an answer like these ones: “Attempt to dope”, I bought it of the internet and started a treatment alone without anybody in my team knowing and without a Doctor, I stole somebody’s blood and put it in my body. Certainly there is no way that these riders will know the amount of doses for HGH, blood doping, EPO, CERA, Testosterone in order to fool the system. I know they are getting better at it but they still require a medical assistance. So there is no reason to believe that other countries are doing enough in the fight of Doping. Very soon I’ll start seeing teams discriminating Germans in their teams just because of their implications.

Bottom line a full confession will be rare if the National Federation or the Judicial System don’t want to do anything about it. Not to mention that the UCI really does not want to do anything about it.

Forgive me if my writing is out of wack.

Thanks.

 

[Not Riding Enough]

Thanks all for one of the best threads I have read. Love some of the philosophy as well as the science, personal experiences and informed opinions.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Today in Dutch newspaper Kohl said that teams don't have anything to do with doping, it's the riders, or better said, athletes, who do things themselves, they even give eachother hints etc. He said he met top swimmers, langlaufers, biathletes and other cyclists etc at HumanPlasma. He also said that Rabobank Continental was the first and only team that told their riders not to use doping. Kohl said none of the other teams he rode for, ever said that so specifically to their riders.

 

[Bala Verde]

Today in Dutch newspaper Kohl said

Do you have a link? I'd like to read the article...

it's the AD right? I think I found it...

http://www.sportwereld.nl/wielrennen/3261192/Kohl_Ik_wil_niet_nog_een_keer_liegen.html

http://www.sportwereld.nl/wielrennen/3261306/lsquoJe_wordt_te_dun_Bennyrsquo.html

 

[BroDeal]

Today in Dutch newspaper Kohl said that teams don't have anything to do with doping, it's the riders, or better said, athletes, who do things themselves, they even give eachother hints etc. He said he met top swimmers, langlaufers, biathletes and other cyclists etc at HumanPlasma. He also said that Rabobank Continental was the first and only team that told their riders not to use doping. Kohl said none of the other teams he rode for, ever said that so specifically to their riders.

I don't think Kohl's experience can be generalized. Clearly Liberty Seguros and Kelme/Comunidad Valencia had team supported programs. Bruyneel is a protege of Manolo Saiz. T-Mobile had a team supported program until they were ratted out. According to Jaschke, Riis' CSC team seems to have operated under the plausible deniability plan by directing its riders to outside doctors but not actually providing support.

The best bet would seem to be that different teams operate differently. Why would not a team based in Spain (or using Spain as its training ground) not support doping? The Spanish judiciary will protect anyone who somehow manages to get caught.

 

[RdBiker]

I don't think Kohl's experience can be generalized. Clearly Liberty Seguros and Kelme/Comunidad Valencia had team supported programs. Bruyneel is a protege of Manolo Saiz. T-Mobile had a team supported program until they were ratted out. According to Jaschke, Riis' CSC team seems to have operated under the plausible deniability plan by directing its riders to outside doctors but not actually providing support.

The best best would seem to be that different teams operate differently. Why would not a team based in Spain (or using Spain as its training ground) not support doping? The Spanish judiciary will protect anyone who somehow manages to get caught.

Maybe what he wants to say is that the teams try to stay away from actually buying the doping products etc. since it is nowadays punishable by law in most countries. That doesn't necessarily mean that the teams don't want their riders to dope or don't force them to use PEDs. It just means that in case a rider gets busted they want to have the ability to say "oh really? he did? well we don't know anything about it."

I still don't find it plausible that a team doctor who closely follows the riders' training and regularly checks their performance could not see if a rider is using PEDs. Were talking about professional doctors who know what they are doing.

 

[BigBoat]

I still don't find it plausible that a team doctor who closely follows the riders' training and regularly checks their performance could not see if a rider is using PEDs. Were talking about professional doctors who know what they are doing.

The team docs are in your corner... Their YOUR PEOPLE. Its like asking the rider's best friend to stab them in the back.

AnyWAYS > to awnser... synacthen (corticotropin) which is ACTH if you've heard of it.... jacks corisol levels in the body and speeds recovery during training and races. Its undetectable. No doctor can catch you with these drugs! So the riders dont bother with testosterone anymore when they have this. And HGH "Growth" is undetectable if low dosed and timed properly. Most riders inject HGH before breakfast in the A.M. hours. IGF-1 is not detectable... Insulin either... Blood doping with your own blood is still more than possible as I've said.... New steroids come out all the time, it just takes a slight tinkering. Tren acetate, "the clear" still exists.

eGH ( equine growth hormone) bro, for horses is undetectable for them!

There's no test for a lot of corticoids, which speed recovery and lower inflamation which allows you to keep pounding day after day in a stage race. Its not a matter of "catching" guys. You cant catch them for a lot of things. But you could stop blood doping. Some 02 carriers you couldnt stop, and gene doping too... It'll never stop but anti-doping is a great fantasy to strive for.

 

[Bala Verde]

Interesting views from a rather well known German Philosopher, Peter Sloterdijk, published in 2008.

The relationship between sports and everyday life is like that between the holy and the mundane. It forms a model world [...] This is why the idea of pure performance is more important there than anywhere else. Fraud is normal in the gray zone of the normal, but in the model world it must be proscribed.

No messing in our holy world!

Cycling is also structurally Catholic in this sense: It is incapable of surviving without hypocrisy. A reformation of the Tour de France remains inconceivable, because we would then be sending all kinds of drug-free cyclists onto the road, which would not be in keeping with the nature of the event. The Tour is one of the few myths of the 20th century that was still halfway functional until recently.

That lies in line with the importance of Kohl's "confessions", to clear his conscious as a sinner and redeem himself.

Sloterdijk: Rolf Aldag said something interesting last year: This time they should award the medals to the last three. This reflects a rather deep insight into the moral situation within the Tour. But if the last to finish are to be the winners, we are no longer engaged in sports, but in charity. Turning failures into victories is and remains a culturally unlikely operation. In Italy, they compare the Germans' efforts with a Maoist reeducation camp attended by repentant riders.

HA, I love it!

Nevertheless, it has long been clear to everyone that a professional athlete has a second profession, namely that of someone pretending to be a role model.

Re: Boonen, but also everyone who dopes, and obviously to safeguard the sanctified supreme performance, he needs to keep it quiet and put on a mask, pretend to be someone who he is not.


For the entire article, see:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,565111,00.html

 

[ElChingon]

Interesting views from a rather well known German Philosopher, Peter Sloterdijk, published in 2008.

For the entire article, see:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,565111,00.html

Good one!

But if cycling is catholic why are there races on Sunday and even Easter!

I say its Atheis-tical myself, it riders are referred to as gods so definitely not catholic.

To yes tangentalize, cycling should transform itself to a religion as well as a sport of not just a religion so we could write off our expenses for our sport and get the day off to watch the big races!

 

[Bala Verde]

Good one!

But if cycling is catholic why are there races on Sunday and even Easter!

Never seen a procession on Sunday's? They don't go quite as fast uphill, given that they prance around with a life-size statue of the Virgin Maria, but still...

 

[Anonymous]

The team docs are in your corner... Their YOUR PEOPLE. Its like asking the rider's best friend to stab them in the back.

AnyWAYS > to awnser... synacthen (corticotropin) which is ACTH if you've heard of it.... jacks corisol levels in the body and speeds recovery during training and races. Its undetectable. No doctor can catch you with these drugs! So the riders dont bother with testosterone anymore when they have this. And HGH "Growth" is undetectable if low dosed and timed properly. Most riders inject HGH before breakfast in the A.M. hours. IGF-1 is not detectable... Insulin either... Blood doping with your own blood is still more than possible as I've said.... New steroids come out all the time, it just takes a slight tinkering. Tren acetate, "the clear" still exists.

eGH ( equine growth hormone) bro, for horses is undetectable for them!

There's no test for a lot of corticoids, which speed recovery and lower inflamation which allows you to keep pounding day after day in a stage race. Its not a matter of "catching" guys. You cant catch them for a lot of things. But you could stop blood doping. Some 02 carriers you couldnt stop, and gene doping too... It'll never stop but anti-doping is a great fantasy to strive for.

I don't know who you are, but thank you. It really puts all of the fanboy "he says he is clean so I believe him" into perspective.

 

[Panic Cycling]

Yes, thanks for you are.

If you don't mind - how do you know all this stuff? I'm so amazed at the info on this thread.

 

[ElChingon]

Never seen a procession on Sunday's? They don't go quite as fast uphill, given that they prance around with a life-size statue of the Virgin Maria, but still...

Yea, but you don't get paid to be in the procession and definitely don't get put on a pedestal and kissed by two podium girls and given a bounty of prizes.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Maybe what he wants to say is that the teams try to stay away from actually buying the doping products etc. since it is nowadays punishable by law in most countries. That doesn't necessarily mean that the teams don't want their riders to dope or don't force them to use PEDs. .

This is exactly how I interpreted it. Especially considering Kohl's statements on Lotto's glee when seeing his bio numbers.

I'd also have to add Phonak as a team that if they didn't have an internal program going, had to have been operating at the very least with a very willful blind eye.

Interesting views from a rather well known German Philosopher, Peter Sloterdijk, published in 2008.

Amusing! But remember this: The Pope is German!

I don't know who you are, but thank you. It really puts all of the fanboy "he says he is clean so I believe him" into perspective.

Yes, thanks for you are. If you don't mind - how do you know all this stuff? I'm so amazed at the info on this thread.

He's a former Cat 1/elite racer and now a USAC coach...maybe.

 

[Panic Cycling]

He's a former Cat 1/elite racer and now a USAC coach...maybe.

Can I buy another vowel?

 

[stephens]

Overall, something still just doesn't feel right about a guy who got caught talking about what other people have done or not done.

I mean, it'd feel better if this was a young, clean cyclist trying to make a career and a living talking about how he can't because all the others are cheating and tells us exactly how they are doing it (though naming names would still feel wrong to me), but for a guy who has been caught to do it it comes off like a killer who decides to testify against his mob boss - he does so not because he suddenly finds killing wrong, but because if he's going down, he wants to take others down with him out of spite or is hoping to save his own ***.

 

[Returnofthewolf]

if he's going down, he wants to take others down with him out of spite or is hoping to save his own ***.

Agreed, total fuc**ng dirtbag. He does not give one sh*t about the sport. His accusations pacify his guilt and (to himself) justify his actions while tainting the whole peloton.

His nickname was 'Shrek' but it should have been 'Donkey'.

 

[B.Rasmussen]

Overall, something still just doesn't feel right about a guy who got caught talking about what other people have done or not done.

I mean, it'd feel better if this was a young, clean cyclist trying to make a career and a living talking about how he can't because all the others are cheating and tells us exactly how they are doing it (though naming names would still feel wrong to me), but for a guy who has been caught to do it it comes off like a killer who decides to testify against his mob boss - he does so not because he suddenly finds killing wrong, but because if he's going down, he wants to take others down with him out of spite or is hoping to save his own ***.

If a young rider did that, he would just be called an untalented and lazy rider who is bitter he can't get a contract.

 

[B.Rasmussen]

Agreed, total fuc**ng dirtbag. He does not give one sh*t about the sport. His accusations pacify his guilt and (to himself) justify his actions while tainting the whole peloton.

His nickname was 'Shrek' but it should have been 'Donkey'.

That's what they said about Manzano also.

 

[Escarabajo]

If a young rider did that, he would just be called an untalented and lazy rider who is bitter he can't get a contract.

+1. Totally agree. Besides who is going to give credibility to that rider. Even worse, maybe it has happened and we never heard of it or never became a very popular story.

 

[Anonymous]

The guy who argues that Armstrong was clean does not even know who Jesus Manzano is. It's like someone arguing that O.J. was innocent and halfway the conversation reveals his cluelessness by asking, "What is DNA?"

i don't argue lance was clean. but when someone said the evidence was irrefutable i said the evidence was not. it isn't.
bro bafoon must think jesus's story is the hair in the stocking cap or the bloody shoe print.
but i guess a gasbag like him needs it to be absolutely one thing or it must be the other, like if the glove don't fit, you must acquit.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not gonna lie I used some stuff when I used to race, nothing like epo or testosterone but amphetamines and cortisone, not as a enhancer but just to supress the joint pains.

if you were taking amphetamines for joint pain, thinking to yourself they weren't enhancers you were completely self deluded.
i take no pleasure in saying that, but we know what amphetamines are and they ain't anti inflamitories.
if that's the kind of thing that goes on in the minds of dopers, then we're seeing a major element of the problem.

 

[nobody]

+1. Totally agree. Besides who is going to give credibility to that rider. Even worse, maybe it has happened and we never heard of it or never became a very popular story.

Basson for exemple !