Kolo Toure tests positive (Football)

[The Hitch]

yes of course, but my point is you play 11 a side v someone who has physical advantages over you, then you're in trouble. You have 11 players doped up v 11 standard players, the doped up fellows give em hell everytime, football tires you out no doubt, if it doesn't you aren't doing it right.

Well it does tire you out. At the world cup we saw every match players tiring greatly towards the end. Ok so it was at altitude but then in a normal season theyll be playing 60 + games not 3 (7 max)

So far alpine chav has argued twice that conditioning isnt that important through HIS experience in HIS games.

But what he hasnt asnwered at all is the fact that the pros, DO GET TIRED. All the time.

He might not get tired in his games, but the pros do get tired in their games, and it is the pros that we are discussing.

one other point that hasnt been mentioned is that there is so much money in football that even if the advantage wasnt that big, they would still use them for that small advantage.

COnsider that players who arent even in the top 100 in the world get more money than the guys at the top of most other sports.

Hell the substitutes on the england football team get far more money than the top guys on the england rugby team. If we consider that cyclists are caught doping for 50 grand a year, are we to believe that footballers wouldnt do it when 140 grand a week is at stake?

 

[alpine_chav]

Well it does tire you out. At the world cup we saw every match players tiring greatly towards the end. Ok so it was at altitude but then in a normal season theyll be playing 60 + games not 3 (7 max)

So far alpine chav has argued twice that conditioning isnt that important through HIS experience in HIS games.

But what he hasnt asnwered at all is the fact that the pros, DO GET TIRED. All the time.

He might not get tired in his games, but the pros do get tired in their games, and it is the pros that we are discussing.

one other point that hasnt been mentioned is that there is so much money in football that even if the advantage wasnt that big, they would still use them for that small advantage.

COnsider that players who arent even in the top 100 in the world get more money than the guys at the top of most other sports.

Hell the substitutes on the england football team get far more money than the top guys on the england rugby team. If we consider that cyclists are caught doping for 50 grand a year, are we to believe that footballers wouldnt do it when 140 grand a week is at stake?

Matt Le Tissier

 

[hrotha]

Matt Le Tissier

Matt Le Tissier? Possibly the single most skilled English player of the last 20 years (together with Gascoigne, maybe)? What about him?

 

[Avoriaz]

Well it does tire you out. At the world cup we saw every match players tiring greatly towards the end. Ok so it was at altitude but then in a normal season theyll be playing 60 + games not 3 (7 max)

So far alpine chav has argued twice that conditioning isnt that important through HIS experience in HIS games.

But what he hasnt asnwered at all is the fact that the pros, DO GET TIRED. All the time.

As, indeed, they should. This reminds me of a story I heard about Teddy Sheringham's first game under Brian Clough for Nottingham Forest. At half time the team are in the dressing room:

Brian Clough: Now, Edward, are you out of breath?

Teddy Sheringham: No, boss.

[Clough punches Sheringham in the stomach]

Brian Clough: Well, you should be.

 

[Roland Rat]

Ha ha, brilliant thread. Good to see Alpine Chav enhancing his reputation.

 

[Roland Rat]

As, indeed, they should. This reminds me of a story I heard about Teddy Sheringham's first game under Brian Clough for Nottingham Forest. At half time the team are in the dressing room:

Brian Clough: Now, Edward, are you out of breath?

Teddy Sheringham: No, boss.

[Clough punches Sheringham in the stomach]

Brian Clough: Well, you should be.

Ah, the legend that is Brian Clough. I was there at his last game in charge.

(A year too late really but that's a different matter...)

Another Sheringham story:

"Now, Edward.."
"Err, boss, it's Teddy"
"Right you are, Edward..."

 

[hrotha]

2nd Division 'B' team Universidad de Las Palmas signs Fuentes as team doctor

Only in Spain...

 

[Galic Ho]

Seconding Hitch here too, great post, highlight's just why PED's are/could be a massive part of football.

Much better off with Futsal. THAT's the game that relies on skills and technique.

Touche. Futsal is the technical masterpiece of the round ball game. Caocao (I think that's right) is amazing. I've seen him against Robinho, wonderful. He had a go at a pro-football contract. Couldn't deal with it. Why? Look at his build, he's a bit too burly. You and Hitch covered it all...discrepancies between different physiques mean advantages can be gained.

I've played centre-mid for years.... box to box. And I raced bikes and athletics at international underage level... I know that doping helps out in those far more than football. Yes running is important in football but the best technical teams make the other team run. Playing football is essentially what cyclists call interval training. But it only lasts for 90minutes. It's quite easy to last that long if you are half way fit and can read the game well which all the pros can no bother. Steroids and weight training followed by epo for recovery would make sense in pro football and I'm not saying it's not going on because it blatantly is but the gains are marginal for footballers while they are all the difference for athletics and cycling.

There are differences and I have no doubt you find football physically easier. I know the feeling, cycling for me is more enjoyable and more demanding, but only if I push myself. Do I think the types of doping you mentioned would matter as much as cycling? No I don't. The gains attained would depend on the individual in question (fitness + technical skill). I played (field) hockey and when I was in shape I was arguably the best runner on my team. Why did I always play an inner? Because I could handle the strenous running load whereas my team mates barely got to 10 on a beep test. I stopped because I was bored. Fitness levels are never uniform and I know this from personal experience as most people do. Technical skills are not guaranteed a win...this is coming from an Arsenal fan. Ideally they should win most games with their ball control and play style, but they don't. We are also talking about a different economic group and level of competition. There is not only the financial incentive to dope but also the means to do so with high levels of disposable cash in pro football. AC Milan for one have a well renowned ability to extend a players pro career into the late 30s. Why? No need to guess as a cycling fan, it's obvious.

I will disagree with the stop and start running and tiring it saps from a person. It isn't the same as cycling, but 3 games a week are bad. My brother often played 3 games per weekend plus indoor soccer during the week. He developed chronic fatigue. I've trained at the gym 6 days a week and it's taken a toll after 2 years non stop. Then consider some of the colossal, great football players. How would you have handled a player like Patrick Viera in his prime? My nations (publically) best player stated Viera was the hardest player he's ever had to face. Viera is 6'5", this guy is Tim Cahill. He's 5'7". That one game alone is going to test you harder than your average game. Not all Everton games Cahill faces will be of the same calibre, nor will the opposition. So one has to look deeper under these instances. What does he do?

Honestly I've thought as you do, that it is not too hard to do, that my training sessions could in fact be harder than a full game, but it's the unknowns that skew one's perspective. We don't know each players personal fitness. We don't know how hard and fast they can go and for how long. We don't know team pressures. Worse, the biggest unknown is that they are one small fish in a professional sport filled with other unknowns regarding their opposition. Take into account your teams overall skill and playing style...when you need to can you take it up a gear or two? I know from hockey that my A grade team could. Heck we won a grand final spot coming back from 4 nil down with 11 minutes left in the game, the opposition gaolie is one of my best mates and he still cops some flack for the loss. Wasn't his fault...my team physically were faster and stronger those last 10 minutes, enabling us to use our technical skill. My point is that everyone will reach a point eventually where they push too hard for too long and then go boom. Their body shuts down. Some people can get through a match fine but break after. Some it's halfway through a season. Others it is part way through a match because they have to lift their efforts because an opponent is out gunning them. When that happens with the demands of your team and the disposable income to remedy this...doping is an easy way to alleviate your problem. Also look at FIFA's resistance to WADA. They allow minimal testing. It is all at your team base, under team guidance. More than iffy IMO.

You don't have to apologise for being fitter than other people. Good for you.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

2nd Division 'B' team Universidad de Las Palmas signs Fuentes as team doctor

Only in Spain...

Unfortunately not only in Spain.

 

[R.0.t.O]

One thing is for sure - virtually all football fans make even a hardcore Livestrong fanboy look detached and rational. The sense of emotional attachment that the average fan has to his team and its players is pretty crazy; no matter how much they're regularly let down by the players and financially abused by the club. Footballers are regularly forgiven for pretty much anything they do wrong (unless they transfer to the team's big rivals in which case instantly they're scum, Judas, a paedo, and in league with Satan). Toure could be any major player on any major team, the wagons will circle around them, the supporters simply will not accept that their man would do anything wrong, and it becomes easy to create a momentum for the idea that it must all be a big mix up.

 

[alpine_chav]

Touche. Futsal is the technical masterpiece of the round ball game. Caocao (I think that's right) is amazing. I've seen him against Robinho, wonderful. He had a go at a pro-football contract. Couldn't deal with it. Why? Look at his build, he's a bit too burly. You and Hitch covered it all...discrepancies between different physiques mean advantages can be gained.



There are differences and I have no doubt you find football physically easier. I know the feeling, cycling for me is more enjoyable and more demanding, but only if I push myself. Do I think the types of doping you mentioned would matter as much as cycling? No I don't. The gains attained would depend on the individual in question (fitness + technical skill). I played (field) hockey and when I was in shape I was arguably the best runner on my team. Why did I always play an inner? Because I could handle the strenous running load whereas my team mates barely got to 10 on a beep test. I stopped because I was bored. Fitness levels are never uniform and I know this from personal experience as most people do. Technical skills are not guaranteed a win...this is coming from an Arsenal fan. Ideally they should win most games with their ball control and play style, but they don't. We are also talking about a different economic group and level of competition. There is not only the financial incentive to dope but also the means to do so with high levels of disposable cash in pro football. AC Milan for one have a well renowned ability to extend a players pro career into the late 30s. Why? No need to guess as a cycling fan, it's obvious.

I will disagree with the stop and start running and tiring it saps from a person. It isn't the same as cycling, but 3 games a week are bad. My brother often played 3 games per weekend plus indoor soccer during the week. He developed chronic fatigue. I've trained at the gym 6 days a week and it's taken a toll after 2 years non stop. Then consider some of the colossal, great football players. How would you have handled a player like Patrick Viera in his prime? My nations (publically) best player stated Viera was the hardest player he's ever had to face. Viera is 6'5", this guy is Tim Cahill. He's 5'7". That one game alone is going to test you harder than your average game. Not all Everton games Cahill faces will be of the same calibre, nor will the opposition. So one has to look deeper under these instances. What does he do?

Honestly I've thought as you do, that it is not too hard to do, that my training sessions could in fact be harder than a full game, but it's the unknowns that skew one's perspective. We don't know each players personal fitness. We don't know how hard and fast they can go and for how long. We don't know team pressures. Worse, the biggest unknown is that they are one small fish in a professional sport filled with other unknowns regarding their opposition. Take into account your teams overall skill and playing style...when you need to can you take it up a gear or two? I know from hockey that my A grade team could. Heck we won a grand final spot coming back from 4 nil down with 11 minutes left in the game, the opposition gaolie is one of my best mates and he still cops some flack for the loss. Wasn't his fault...my team physically were faster and stronger those last 10 minutes, enabling us to use our technical skill. My point is that everyone will reach a point eventually where they push too hard for too long and then go boom. Their body shuts down. Some people can get through a match fine but break after. Some it's halfway through a season. Others it is part way through a match because they have to lift their efforts because an opponent is out gunning them. When that happens with the demands of your team and the disposable income to remedy this...doping is an easy way to alleviate your problem. Also look at FIFA's resistance to WADA. They allow minimal testing. It is all at your team base, under team guidance. More than iffy IMO.

You don't have to apologise for being fitter than other people. Good for you.

Ye you're right. There have been games where I have been out of my depth but it was never due to lack of fitness. No amount of fitness would have made me better than my opponents. They had organisation and technical abilities superior to our team which is why they were getting paid and only some of us were. In the end in football I feel talent is still the over-riding defining aspect of what separates the pros from the semi-pros and amateurs. Doping can and does obviously help but it won't turn a donkey into a race horse as in cycling.

 

[hrotha]

Very interesting article about antidoping procedures in football (in Spanish; pages 18-19)

This should put things into perspective. Some particularly striking stuff:
Spain
- In the Spanish First Division, only 2 games per day have antidoping tests. These are decided by drawing lots before the season even starts (hello, potential for the info to be leaked to the interested parties).
- Games that are played on Saturday have no tests.
- In every game, 2 players per team are tested.
- The players to be tested are decided by drawing lots. After the second half of the game starts, the players that have to be tested are informed "so that they don't urinate after the game and are able to pass the control faster" (so, no chaperones? Not that it matters, if they can do whatever they want during the second half).
- Urine tests only.
Other countries
- In other countries they do tests in every game. In France, all games are tested down to the Third Division (in Spain, only the First and Second Divisions have tests).
- Urine tests only in those countries as well
- In England, Italy, France and Germany 2 players per team per game are tested.
- As for surprise controls, they're legal but uncommon.

It takes some talent to test positive in football.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

... Viera is 6'5", this guy is Tim Cahill. He's 5'7". ...

It doesn't affect the point you make but purely in the interests of accuracy, as far as I can ascertain, Viera is 6'3" to 6'4" and Cahill is 5'10" to 5'11".

 

[hrotha]

Second part of the article (pages 20-21)

- The samples aren't tested for EPO or HGH, they mostly look for anabolic steroids and recreational drugs (not that it matters, since HGH is only detectable up to 36-72 hours after its use, and at the absolute worst you'll only be tested every Sunday).
- The plasticizers test used a sample of 221 anonymous individuals during its validation phase. Four of them had abnormal values; two of them were football players.
- The national teams (including u21 and other categories) are tested out of competition, both with urine and blood tests and there's some kind of logitudinal testing program.

 

[Ney the Viking]

Does it say anything about the international matches? Here I mean champions league and equivalent.

So most footballers can take EPO and HGH like there is no tomorrow really, maybe with some care up to national team events. [Tinfoil hat]So this is why spain always perform under expectations in the World Cup?[/Tinfoil hat]

 

[hrotha]

No word on international games, sorry.

 

[Stingray34]

I haven't been following the middle of this thread, so my apologies if it's been mentioned already, but has it been revealed yet what product Toure has tested positive for? What action has the FA and Arsenal taken against him (if any)?

 

[alpine_chav]

I haven't been following the middle of this thread, so my apologies if it's been mentioned already, but has it been revealed yet what product Toure has tested positive for? What action has the FA and Arsenal taken against him (if any)?

I think you meant Man City?

 

[Met de Versnelling]

I think you meant Man City?

Yeah, but he was the main part of the Arsenal defence for a while, i forget sometimes when players move clubs.

Still think Torres is a Liverpool player, he's been so quiet for us

But, no, as far as i know/have seen, the substance hasn't been released, "diet pill" apparently.

Touche. Futsal is the technical masterpiece of the round ball game. Caocao (I think that's right) is amazing. I've seen him against Robinho, wonderful. He had a go at a pro-football contract. Couldn't deal with it. Why? Look at his build, he's a bit too burly. You and Hitch covered it all...discrepancies between different physiques mean advantages can be gained.

Falcao i think you mean, the Brazilian?

If so, yeah, he's probably the most technically talented and skillful player in the world, some of the stuff he does is just jaw-dropping.

But the levels of skill throughout the game is great, eg my Uni team played the uni 11-a-side first team in both Futsal and 11-a-side, we destroyed them on the boards, and got a 4-4 draw on the grass, they just couldn't get the ball off us. We did tire out though, got sloppy. Anyway, WAY off topic

-------

Also, Drogba. Supporting Toure?

Okaaaaay, there's doping inside Chelsea. Wonderful.

 

[The Hitch]

Great work from hrotha posting that doping control information. Very interesting.

Okaaaaay, there's doping inside Chelsea. Wonderful.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/apr/01/newsstory.sport9

Its not quite blood doping but if they were spending this much money on some wild injury treatments, why would they not go to the next level (or perhaps even a lower level, seeing as taking epo is far less complicated) if theres no chance of getting caught.

Just a thought.

 

[Galic Ho]

It doesn't affect the point you make but purely in the interests of accuracy, as far as I can ascertain, Viera is 6'3" to 6'4" and Cahill is 5'10" to 5'11".

Cheers. I swear Timmy is a not a big guy though. Swear he is my height. Viera, doesn't matter, it's about right. BUt Timmy...I'll have to go look at some photos of him with Neill and Kewell. Guess he might not be a midget

 

[Galic Ho]

Falcao i think you mean, the Brazilian?

If so, yeah, he's probably the most technically talented and skillful player in the world, some of the stuff he does is just jaw-dropping.

But the levels of skill throughout the game is great, eg my Uni team played the uni 11-a-side first team in both Futsal and 11-a-side, we destroyed them on the boards, and got a 4-4 draw on the grass, they just couldn't get the ball off us. We did tire out though, got sloppy. Anyway, WAY off topic

-------

Also, Drogba. Supporting Toure?

Okaaaaay, there's doping inside Chelsea. Wonderful.

No, Drogba and Toure are national buddies. They're from the same neck of the woods, same country. All the Cote d'lvoir players get along well, unlike other African teams. That's no surprise he's putting in a word for him. Didier is the biggest player from their respective nation. Not that I think Chelsea are clean, it's just a mate standing up for a mate...nothing sinister there.

Yeah you're right, the name is coming back to me now. Falcao. Haven't seen footage of him in about 4, maybe 5 years, since the 2006 WC. Knew it ended "cao" just wasn't sure how it started, so I took a guess. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ye you're right. There have been games where I have been out of my depth but it was never due to lack of fitness. No amount of fitness would have made me better than my opponents. They had organisation and technical abilities superior to our team which is why they were getting paid and only some of us were. In the end in football I feel talent is still the over-riding defining aspect of what separates the pros from the semi-pros and amateurs. Doping can and does obviously help but it won't turn a donkey into a race horse as in cycling.

You should read this piece -The drugs do work and that's why players can't say no.

Some pieces from it:

Having spent long enough watching me being outjumped and outfought by centre-halves in every game, manager Mark McGhee summoned me to his training ground office one day. He was not alone, and had a simple message for me: "We're gonna get really scientific with you."

If the club gives you something to take, you assume you should take it. The following year, my diet was tweaked slightly. I asked why one set of pills was no longer to be taken. The reply was a little concerning. "Oh yeah, that was on the banned list all along. Didn't realise it. Never mind." Given that players are totally liable for any substance that is found in their system at any time, it was a stroke of good fortune that I wasn't tested that year.

I had never before reached such a level of fitness and strength. My energy levels were at an all-time high, my body-fat percentages an all-time low. There were pills to prepare us for each game, others to give us a boost at half-time, and there were special drinks made up to help us recover. Such was our commitment to the new regime, we even took what were described as 'liver support pills' before our Christmas party that season. Nothing was left to chance. We finished fourth in the first division that year because of it.

 

[luckyboy]

"I wasn't tested that year." lol

 

[Paco_P]

don't forget when we talk about Barca or Real dominance, even if they have a really bad season they will still finish second. It's like saying Rangers and Celtic must be doped to the gills because they both challenge the leage each season

It begs repeating that Pep Guardiola was suspended (as a player) in the Italian league for doping, and even sentenced in a criminal trial. Later he was exonerated, which of course means that he does not approve of his players doping.