Kreuziger going down?

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May 19, 2010
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leon993 said:
In any civil legal suit, you has document that you have suffered a financial loss.
For Tinkoff it is easy, he pays contract salary and get nothing in return as Roman is suspended. For Roman it is more difficult, he has to document future losses.

A critical point in Tinkoff vs. UCI is the alleged BP violation is prior to his TS contract and, as far I know, UCI is contacted for approval before contract is considered final. Does anyone how this approval work?

If UCI think his results now can be affected by his doping (and that is what the first paragraph they have given as a reason for suspending him is about) it seems fair to assume they think he has been dopng at TS too. Or UCI is just making up stuff as they like. What doping in 2012 could be proven to affect his results in 2014? The variations in 2011 and 2012 was what Tinkoff Saxo tells us UCI was asking Kreuziger about in 2013. It doesen't mean that it is all UCI are building the bio passport case on.
 
Jun 10, 2010
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It's not Kreuziger's past doping that might affect the results, but Kreuziger himself. You're reading things that aren't in the rules.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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hrotha said:
It's not Kreuziger's past doping that might affect the results, but Kreuziger himself. You're reading things that aren't in the rules.

If we read the rule any other way, then the UCI is authorized to impose indeterminate bans against a rider who doped in the past (and wouldn't that violate the WADA code). Is that what you're saying? Or is another rule operative here?

I don't understand (a) what you're saying; and (b) the reasons justifying what the UCI is doing to Kreuziger.
 
Jul 11, 2013
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Don´t worry. The ban is in the making... :)
As I said, law to unfold takes time. In Germany we call it "Die Mühlen der Justiz mahlen langsam".

I'am not worried at all :cool:
As i said, in light of recent events, anything but a ban is implausible...
With this I implied that if he was innocent they wouldn't have done as they did with the recent suspension. They are not going to change their minds (even if innocent) on this, so they should give him the ban instead of prolonging this further.. If they after 2-3 years of extensive investigation of the same material can't make a decision, then surely one wonders if "guilty without any reasonable doubt" is plausible... I do not consider the snail-pace in processing this case beeing on the plus-side of the accusers, rather the opposite....

But only those who fall for his tricks. I can´t stand a guy telling his riders "do whatever you want, but don´t get caught". He is a psycho, like all those guys who got rich fast with the win-at-all-cost-approach.
No wonder AC was in the "form of his life" this year, after he showed his true level last year. A 100% turnaround... And then Majka comes off the bench after the Giro to ride all remaining contenders (outside of Nibali from the Vino-Dope-Option-Team) into the ground with a smile in his face. Dopers heaven this TS team...

Well, doing "tricks" seem to historically be a part of this sport.. The fact that
Tinkov is so transparent about it doesn't make him more a theif than other thiefs IMO... I think the issue with Contador and Majka is not so black and white as made above, but further discussion of this probably belongs in other threads..

Better get them (over-the-top-dopers) late than never at all. All good for me... Only with Horner they may take a little too long in my opinion. OTOH, I may should just relax. They´ll get him too. Sooner or later...

I agree that late is better than nothing.. But only when it is a matter of
certain tools and or knowledge not beeing avalible at the time... They are processing old data, and have plenty of ressources to finish this already..

His problem. Not the UCI ones. I guess a guy who makes millions could afford a guy to read toxic BPs, like JV (with wayyy less money in the pockets) for example can (the Horner one which he described as roller-coaster AFAIR)...

Let me say that of course it is any teams responsibility to do a proper vet on any new signing. And of course the big teams have better tools to do this if they want to, obviously.. Now Kreuziger was signed to the 2013 season, one would think Riis had learned his lesson with the Contador signing that somehow developed exectly the same way, just different basis to their cases right.. If the UCI needs several years to hand out a ban then how on earth should the team have any chance of knowing better based on BP data?
Furthermore I do think Riis did his homework, he is not an idiot, and the case of Contador would certainly have scared him off signing a new big guy without doing an extensive risk judgement.. He found the signing to be a good choice, and now like with Contador he's in the Sh1te... I saw you said today that the UCI would be happy to get rid of guys like Riis. I would say this case is further proof of that..

Other than the public belief: UCI is not FIFA. They have to turn every cent twice before spending. I give them the benefit of doubt... BP cases are expensive enough.

I do not care that they have to turn every cent...
If the objective is to cleanse the sport, and if the goal is sincere, they would find a way of at least reducing process time..
Delays are only resulting in doubt and uncertainty in the eye of the public..
Afterall the public is paying by wieving, however naive they may be -they deserve better i think..

"3 -maximum 6 months"... Why? Because the public can´t wait? Better take your time, even if it takes years. But make it waterproof...

Because cyclings future is very much affected by public opinion..
In light of cyclings history we need to see results..
Results achieved through effective, thorough and importantly performed in a reasonable time span.. If every case is 3-5 years late then we can never believe the new era of cycling that someone constantly claims to be his future legacy... Is this too much to ask?

EDIT: Excuse my lousy quoting skills.. This multi sentence part causes me problems..
 
Jul 11, 2013
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
No saints at the UCI (that´s clear to everybody), still they were the first with the 50% rule, OOC tests, blood tests, blood monitoring, and hurting their business by throwing out their market players at tons per minute (Rasmussen, Ullrich, Basso, DiLuca, etc., etc.), and what else. Which other sport ever did that? That was a rhetorical question...

So let me ask a rhetorical question...
Which other sport has ever been under the same pressure to do something about doping issues... Having their existense threatened if not doing "some" good doesn't make me clap my hands....


Dubious of course...

But honestly -So what if Tinkov said that when he started his own team.. He probably only "knew" that everyone was doping so he told them to be careful and carry on...

But evil and criminal?? -I need to see more to come to that conclusion.. Btw did you notice what he (Tyler) also said:

"When I read that he came back to cycling and to Bjarne Riis, I wished I had a good relationship with Bjarne, as I would have called him and said 'stay away from Oleg'."

This can be interpreted in so many ways

Being sincere, concrete and up-front in one sentence, then totally the opposite in the next right?

I will continue to uphold reservance to any thing he might say..
 
Jun 10, 2010
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MarkvW said:
If we read the rule any other way, then the UCI is authorized to impose indeterminate bans against a rider who doped in the past (and wouldn't that violate the WADA code). Is that what you're saying? Or is another rule operative here?

I don't understand (a) what you're saying; and (b) the reasons justifying what the UCI is doing to Kreuziger.
Huh?
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1542635&postcount=460
 
Jul 25, 2010
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According to interview with Roman, which have been just published the case seems to be more bull**** than anything else.

Roman claims:

2008 - 2010 - 16 test per year
2011 - 2012 - 8 tests per year
and from 2012 up today just another 8

my impression of BP was, that it is full of data (my impression was, that as a proof it must be updated on weekly basis..) but in this case UCI is not test him and one would think that the lack of testing is to harm and prevent his defence ...
 
May 11, 2013
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fireblader said:
According to interview with Roman, which have been just published the case seems to be more bull**** than anything else.

Roman claims:

2008 - 2010 - 16 test per year
2011 - 2012 - 8 tests per year
and from 2012 up today just another 8

my impression of BP was, that it is full of data (my impression was, that as a proof it must be updated on weekly basis..) but in this case UCI is not test him and one would think that the lack of testing is to harm and prevent his defence ...

According to Cookson, he's cooked:

"There are very serious anomalies," Cookson told Cyclingnews when asked about Kreuziger's passport readings.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cookson-passport-cases-can-now-be-treated-as-positive-tests
 
Jun 7, 2010
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Whatever happened to not commenting on ongoing cases even if he may have been put on the spot?
 
Jun 10, 2010
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fireblader said:
my impression of BP was, that it is full of data (my impression was, that as a proof it must be updated on weekly basis..) but in this case UCI is not test him and one would think that the lack of testing is to harm and prevent his defence ...
Weekly updates? God no. Those numbers Kreuziger mentioned are pretty standard fare. More than enough to nail him.
 
Jun 7, 2010
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fireblader said:
According to interview with Roman, which have been just published the case seems to be more bull**** than anything else.

Roman claims:

2008 - 2010 - 16 test per year
2011 - 2012 - 8 tests per year
and from 2012 up today just another 8

my impression of BP was, that it is full of data (my impression was, that as a proof it must be updated on weekly basis..) but in this case UCI is not test him and one would think that the lack of testing is to harm and prevent his defence ...

Is there an online version of the interview?
 
Jul 11, 2013
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Rollthedice said:
According to Cookson, he's cooked:

"There are very serious anomalies," Cookson told Cyclingnews when asked about Kreuziger's passport readings.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cookson-passport-cases-can-now-be-treated-as-positive-tests

Indeed yes... Someone felt the need to stamp his authority as i read it..
Funny thing how much they got around in this interwiev.. SKY beeing an example to follow and "my friend" Tinkov's twitter account... Really important for the case in hand of course...

Dissection tomorrow is scheduled..... Good night... ;)
 
Jan 24, 2012
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mrhender said:
Indeed yes... Someone felt the need to stamp his authority as i read it..
Funny thing how much they got around in this interwiev.. SKY beeing an example to follow and "my friend" Tinkov's twitter account... Really important for the case in hand of course...

Dissection tomorrow is scheduled..... Good night... ;)

https://twitter.com/olegtinkov/status/496059197461909504
Mr.Cookson called me FRIEND? I thought his friend is SKY team, his son doesn't work in my team, he works in Sky team, is this western ethic?
 
Jul 10, 2012
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mrhender said:
Indeed yes... Someone felt the need to stamp his authority as i read it..
Funny thing how much they got around in this interwiev.. SKY beeing an example to follow and "my friend" Tinkov's twitter account... Really important for the case in hand of course...

Dissection tomorrow is scheduled..... Good night... ;)

If nothing else these cases might encourage Cookson to pass over ownership of these awkward BP cases et al to the Mythical Independant Body !

Let Tinkov argue with WADA or whoever, rather than always being the punchbag.
 
Apr 30, 2011
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How would Cookson know how serious the anomalies are? I thought he had said that anti-doping is now independent :confused:
 
Sep 20, 2009
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Netserk said:
How would Cookson know how serious the anomalies are? I thought he had said that anti-doping is now independent :confused:

The same way that I know from the press release Kreuziger released and is quoted in post 4 in this thread!
 
Apr 30, 2011
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timmers said:
The same way that I know from the press release Kreuziger released and is quoted in post 4 in this thread!
Okay, where does it say exactly how serious the anomalies are? Are they medium-serious or extremely serious?
 
Apr 30, 2011
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I like this bit from the CN article: "We think that continuing to allow him to compete by virtue of the constant spinning out of the explanations and challenges his legal team and experts are producing is not in the best interest of the sport."

Uhm excuse me, but from the time line I have seen, it's been the UCI who have taken their time, not Kreuziger.
 
Jan 10, 2012
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Netserk said:
I like this bit from the CN article: "We think that continuing to allow him to compete by virtue of the constant spinning out of the explanations and challenges his legal team and experts are producing is not in the best interest of the sport."

Uhm excuse me, but from the time line I have seen, it's been the UCI who have taken their time, not Kreuziger.

That's (mostly) correct. After his counterarguments last year, before the Tour de suisse, the UCI hasn't contacted him for a year, until before the Tour of Suisse. Of course Kreuziger needs time now to put together his defense again, which is only normal. It's not chique to put that in his shoes. The UCI should have made a decision on what to do with Kreuziger a long time ago (at least a year). Withouth the pressure of Tinkoff-Saxo to let Roman race again the UCI would still not have taken any kind of formal action. At least now there is some kind of breakthrough.

That being said, I find it very unprofessional of Cookson - who according to him doesn't know the details and insistes Anti Doping is not under his influence - to make detailed statements and suggestions about the case. It doesn't stroke with the either the presumption of independence or that of innocence until proven guilty. He should just have said (and ideally couldn't have saind anything but that, because he's not involved) he's just not involved, doesn't know the details, regrets the delay and time lapse, will take this up with WADA and hopes the situation (which benefits no one) will be resolved as quickly as possible.
 
Mar 9, 2013
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Nillson
I could not agree more. Roman will answer for his BP "abnormalities"

However Cookson again comes off looking like a total ***.
And as far as his son working for SKY. Again he looks like an ***. IMHO
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Oleg should have found some obscure differentiator for Kreuziger and sent him home for an 8 week intensive study - preferably with Brian Cookson's son - to prove that the anomalies were all down to said obscure differentiator.

Then reinstating him would have been fine.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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thehook said:
Nillson
I could not agree more. Roman will answer for his BP "abnormalities"

However Cookson again comes off looking like a total ***.
And as far as his son working for SKY. Again he looks like an ***. IMHO

You are missing the point. Why Roman and not xyz? ASO? Tinkov vs. UCI? Makarov?

Dear Wiggo is right. Research was needed. Apparently Tinkov won't play along.
 

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