Kreuziger going down?

[neineinei]

242. 1. If after the review described in articles 204 to 231 the UCI asserts that an anti-doping violation
under article 21.1 or article 21.2 was committed, the Anti-Doping Commission or one of its
members may ban the Rider from participating in Events for such time that the violation, in the
opinion of the Anti-Doping Commission or such member, is likely to affect the Rider’s results.
2. Where the ban is intended to last more than one week, the Rider shall be given an opportunity
to file written submissions before the ban goes into effect or on a timely basis thereafter.


313. In addition to the automatic Disqualification of the results in the Competition pursuant to article 288
and except as provided in articles 289 to 292, all other competitive results obtained from the date a
positive Sample was collected (whether In-Competition or Out-of-Competition) or other anti-doping
rule violation occurred, through the commencement of any Provisional Suspension or Ineligibility
period, shall, unless fairness requires otherwise, be Disqualified.
Comment: 1) it may be considered as unfair to disqualify the results which were not likely to
have been affected by the Rider’s anti-doping rule violation.
2) an Anti-Doping Rule Violation under article 21.4 shall be deemed to have occurred
on the date of the third Whereabouts Failure.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kre...bnormalities-pulled-from-tour-de-france-squad

According to the UCI’s Cycling Anti-Doping Foundation (CAFD) its Experts Panel has concluded that Roman Kreuziger's blood passport profile shows abnormalities established from March 2011 until August 2011 as well as from April 2012 until the end of the 2012 Giro d’Italia, periods prior to the rider signing with TCS.

So CADF thinks his doping in 2011 and 2012 may give him an advantage now?

Meanwhile they disqualified Menchov from the 2012 TdF, but he got to keep his stage win at Bola del Mundo in the Vuelta some weeks later. The stuff Kruziger is on must be so much powerful than what Menchov was on, Romans stuff affects results more than two years later, while Menchovs stuff only gave him a boost for 3 weeks.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Basically the UCI is scrounging around for whatever reasoning it can find to prevent Kreuziger from competing and it does not care whether it has to twist the rules to do so. It is the same sort of corruption we saw from McQuaid and Verbruggen. The UCI does what it wants, the rules be damned.

Hello World... Imagine, that process goes on in every phase of life, in every country. Even the most democratic countries have major major flaws in their law systems.

I get the feeling 99% of the forum members don´t know what $hit goes on in real life in their very own countries law systems. Have a look at the likes of Snowden, Manning, Assange (to name a very few of the cruelest examples. There are anonymous millions more; in prisons, innocent, only convicted b/c some blind "eye" witnesses for the prosecution talked in court)... Cyclists are rather good off, with the law applied to them (A/B samples. BP cases only opened when waterproof and most obvious. Countless chances to clear their names in civil courts, sports courts and CAS as next to last instance, etc).

The UCI don´t just suspend riders by rolling the dice. No, they only suspend the riders they feel to have a waterproof case. Otherwise the likes of Horner for example would not be riding anymore...

So all cool down. Tinkov is upset. So what? A russian czar who got wealthy in the wild west days under Jelzin. Certainly a role model for ya all...

OK, back to reality. I take Cookson and the UCI 1.000 times over shady guys that got rich under Jelzins mobster years. My two cents...

 

[The Hitch]

In professional cycling words mean less than nothing.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Suing the UCI in Switzerland will end badly for Roman. The UCI knows they can do this and did it.

I am looking forward to more positives from Saxo-Tinko real soon.

I think so too. But simply because they indeed dope the hell out of what´s possible for them to get away with (at least they thought so until some weeks ago)...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

unfortunately they have to first convince/buy ASO before they can even think to do something against UCI mafia (and btw, don't think it will automatically start The New Clean Era)

Nope. It would get much worse. A true circus like WWE. Death metal matches on 20% gradients, to be payed VIP lounges at the most entertaining spots.
No more positives (bad for business), no more BP (to expansive, thus minimizing profits), no more free TV races (cuts profits)...
Hell guys, be careful what you wish for. Cycling as it is now, with all its flaws is the best possible in the real world we live in.
It´s never going to be paradise, no matter how hard Benotti (sorry to use you as an example, was just the first to come to mind ) wishes for.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

they have the right to race a satisfying program.

Like I already said: the LL case of last year, where Belkin really didn't want him to ride anymore, showed that again. They weren't allowed to suspend him, and were legally obliged to let him race a decent program.

You have seen the contracts? I have never heard that somebody has the right to work. He has the right to be paid. Yes. But to ride a "decent program". What´s that? It´s like your usual benchwarmer in a soccer league has the right to play in a decent number of games?

Sorry, sounds like a load of BS... Tinkov wanna play by his own rules. Dope his riders. Play power games with the UCI. In short: He is evil. UCI guys are saints in comparision. Hope this guy gets out of cycling, as Vino should, as Rijs should. They are all not a tiny bit better than LA. Not a tiny bit...

 

[thehook]

You have seen the contracts? I have never heard that somebody has the right to work. He has the right to be paid. Yes. But to ride a "decent program". What´s that? It´s like your usual benchwarmer in a soccer league has the right to play in a decent number of games?

Sorry, sounds like a load of BS... Tinkov wanna play by his own rules. Dope his riders. Play power games with the UCI. In short: He is evil. UCI guys are saints in comparision. Hope this guy gets out of cycling, as Vino should, as Rijs should. They are all not a tiny bit better than LA. Not a tiny bit...

News Flash: Roman is being sanctioned for his passport BEFORE he rode for TS!

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

... and that changes what in the context of my post commenting another post?

 

[movingtarget]

You have seen the contracts? I have never heard that somebody has the right to work. He has the right to be paid. Yes. But to ride a "decent program". What´s that? It´s like your usual benchwarmer in a soccer league has the right to play in a decent number of games?

Sorry, sounds like a load of BS... Tinkov wanna play by his own rules. Dope his riders. Play power games with the UCI. In short: He is evil. UCI guys are saints in comparision. Hope this guy gets out of cycling, as Vino should, as Rijs should. They are all not a tiny bit better than LA. Not a tiny bit...

Sadly I agree and have never understood how self confessed dopers like Riis were allowed to manage a team. Confession is good for the soul and they should be helped by showing them the door and that goes for anyone including ex-riders. The non confessors like Vino are more problematic. By allowing such people to stay in the sport pro cycling becomes even more ridiculous. Anyone banned or suspended should also be omitted from the sport after they retire otherwise why go through the whole charade of dope testing, sanctions and biological passport checks. They should not be able to hold a licence as a team owner or manager or employed in any capacity by a team. It should be part of the weeding out process.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Tinkov wanna play by his own rules. Dope his riders. Play power games with the UCI. In short: He is evil. UCI guys are saints in comparision. Hope this guy gets out of cycling, as Vino should, as Rijs should. They are all not a tiny bit better than LA. Not a tiny bit...

Tinkov is moving much faster and smarter than the UCI and they didn't like it. It challenged their emperor/despot governance model.

Tinkov is no angel, but obviously smarter than the UCI. IMO, evil is not the right word. Maybe he's one more character in a "den of thieves?"

 

[Walkman]

Sadly I agree and have never understood how self confessed dopers like Riis were allowed to manage a team. Confession is good for the soul and they should be helped by showing them the door and that goes for anyone including ex-riders. The non confessors like Vino are more problematic. By allowing such people to stay in the sport pro cycling becomes even more ridiculous. Anyone banned or suspended should also be omitted from the sport after they retire otherwise why go through the whole charade of dope testing, sanctions and biological passport checks. They should not be able to hold a licence as a team owner or manager or employed in any capacity by a team. It should be part of the weeding out process.

Quoted for truth. Agree 100%. UCI still is a farce. Riis and Vino still active in the game is a big "fu*k you" to all the guys who race clean.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

UCI should put the algorithm they use for BioPassport sanctioning into the public domain.
That would make it a level-playing field - unlike the situation today.

BP is about numbers - show the numbers, show the calculation let us do the math too.

 

[hrotha]

UCI should put the algorithm they use for BioPassport sanctioning into the public domain.
That would make it a level-playing field - unlike the situation today.

BP is about numbers - show the numbers, show the calculation let us do the math too.

That's not how the passport works.

They have software to do the preliminary screening. That involves the numbers and calculations you're talking about, but it's only the first stage of the process. For starters, a panel of humans has to look at the flagged passports and decide whether or not there's a possible case.

Truth is, there are so many screening phases, only clear-cut cases make it to the stage Kreuziger is at. The threshold is ridiculously low due to legal issues.

 

[Walkman]

That's not how the passport works.

They have software to do the preliminary screening. That involves the numbers and calculations you're talking about, but it's only the first stage of the process. For starters, panel of humans have to look at the flagged passports and decide whether or not there's a possible case.

Truth is, there are so many screening phases, only clear-cut cases make it to the stage Kreuziger is at. The threshold is ridiculously low due to legal issues.

So in other words, Kreuziger is a "slam dunk" with regards to being guilty?

 

[mrhender]

It is increasingly diffucult to see this ending in anything other than a ban.

However this farce has developed to a loose/loose situation for all parts involved.. The constant dragging on of the case combined with mudslinging and now the latest suspension is not helping anyone...

It is clear that team decided to put Roman back in racing to speed up process hence putting pressure on UCI.. No surprise UCI didn't like it and decided to "put him down" for the time beeing.. If the case is "clear cut" then why in gods name are they taking soo long to give him the bloody ban.. The latest development is only giving Tinkov ammo to call it a political decision with no roots in reality..

Cookson want's to improve the reputation of the UCI but the way this plays out they will come out as the bully..
If he cannnot grasp that the handling of this case is undermining him and the reputation of UCI -then he clearly needs advice..

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Sadly I agree and have never understood how self confessed dopers like Riis were allowed to manage a team. Confession is good for the soul and they should be helped by showing them the door and that goes for anyone including ex-riders. The non confessors like Vino are more problematic.

I do not think that the UCI is run by a bunch of idiots (like many believe here). I further believe they´d rather have guys like Tinkov, Rijs, Vino, and others out of the sport. But it´s obvious they do not have the power to dis-allow them to run a business. UCI is in europe, not in Simbabwe, where Mugabe could tell them by presidential order to leave, without due process.

Vino once said "we are here (in europe pro cycling) to make money, not to follow the high moral standards of the west". Says it all...
Tinkov? Yes, evil. Guys who call for "Oleg for president", should just go back what Hamilton had to say about him. It´s eye-opening... Most certainly a criminal left-over from the Jelzin days with zero moral standards, not just a shady team owner.

Quoted for truth. Agree 100%. UCI still is a farce. Riis and Vino still active in the game is a big "fu*k you" to all the guys who race clean.

See above. Their (UCI) hands are tight in legal issues. Can´t just throw them out...

So in other words, Kreuziger is a "slam dunk" with regards to being guilty?

Yes.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

If the case is "clear cut" then why in gods name are they taking soo long to give him the bloody ban..

Because the BP cases are not the usual steak cases with a clear cut positive. In these cases you have to be absolutely sure (otherwise it ends in a mess like with doper Pechstein), especially when guys like Tinkoff just wait to let their expensive turn-the-truth-around-lawyers run wild...
Western law systems take years to open-and-finish cases. Absolutely normal.

The latest development is only giving Tinkov ammo to call it a political decision with no roots in reality.

Who cares what he says? Should he open his own Cycling organisation, and take Saxo and Astana with him. I would applaud that, and go on watching UCI licensed races, and give a phuck what they do with their "wild-west" dope-all racing circus...

Cookson want's to improve the reputation of the UCI but the way this plays out they will come out as the bully..
If he cannnot grasp that the handling of this case is undermining him and the reputation of UCI -then he clearly needs advice.

So enlighten me what he/UCI shall do different in difficult BP cases...

 

[mrhender]

FoxxyBrown1111
Because the BP cases are not the usual steak cases with a clear cut positive. In these cases you have to be absolutely sure (otherwise it ends in a mess like with doper Pechstein), especially when guys like Tinkoff just wait to let their expensive turn-the-truth-around-lawyers run wild...
Western law systems take years to open-and-finish cases. Absolutely normal.

As far as i know they already dismissed the expert opinions that Kreuziger got from three "independent" experts. As a result of this it is the opinion of the UCI experts panel that matters so give him the ban and then he can appeal to CAS if he wants to.. They have been on this case for years and nothing new will affect the irregulaties from back then so they have all they need to to make a decision..

Who cares what he says? Should he open his own Cycling organisation, and take Saxo and Astana with him. I would applaud that, and go on watching UCI licensed races, and give a phuck what they do with their "wild-west" dope-all racing circus...

I it not just about caring.. It's about public opinion and he uses this to turn it against UCI with some degree of succes. Never said i liked it, I don't because any doubt cast over the UCI and it's decisions is not aiding the sport at all.. (edit: assuming UCI are right)
But the UCI is providing the ammo IMO.. Furthermore I wouldn't take his comments about creating their own origanisation too seriously, as far as i can tell he's an impulsive man who talks from frustration from time to time..
They inherited this case with Kreuziger and I understand the frustration of it not coming to and end.

So enlighten me what he/UCI shall do different in difficult BP cases...

They should be more ambitious.. I understand that potential BP cases in their nature has to bee monitored closely over a given time-span. IMO they should hire more experts so WHEN they open a case they have to reach a deadline of 3 -maximum 6 months.. This would propably result in more appeals, but so be it..

 

[mrhender]

Vino once said "we are here (in europe pro cycling) to make money, not to follow the high moral standards of the west". Says it all...
Tinkov? Yes, evil. Guys who call for "Oleg for president", should just go back what Hamilton had to say about him. It´s eye-opening... Most certainly a criminal left-over from the Jelzin days with zero moral standards, not just a shady team owner.

And the UCI has certainly proven over the years -To be of the latter

Furthermore Tinkov may be an evil criminal, but I have yet to see any arguments to this claim. Please enlighten me with details?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

As far as i know they already dismissed the expert opinions that Kreuziger got from three "independent" experts. As a result of this it is the opinion of the UCI experts panel that matters so give him the ban and then he can appeal to CAS if he wants to.. They have been on this case for years and nothing new will affect the irregulaties from back then so they have all they need to to make a decision..

Don´t worry. The ban is in the making...
As I said, law to unfold takes time. In Germany we call it "Die Mühlen der Justiz mahlen langsam".

I it not just about caring.. It's about public opinion and he uses this to turn it against UCI with some degree of succes.

But only those who fall for his tricks. I can´t stand a guy telling his riders "do whatever you want, but don´t get caught". He is a psycho, like all those guys who got rich fast with the win-at-all-cost-approach.
No wonder AC was in the "form of his life" this year, after he showed his true level last year. A 100% turnaround... And then Majka comes off the bench after the Giro to ride all remaining contenders (outside of Nibali from the Vino-Dope-Option-Team) into the ground with a smile in his face. Dopers heaven this TS team...

Never said i liked it, I don't because any doubt cast over the UCI and it's decisions is not aiding the sport at all.. (edit: assuming UCI are right)

Better get them (over-the-top-dopers) late than never at all. All good for me... Only with Horner they may take a little too long in my opinion. OTOH, I may should just relax. They´ll get him too. Sooner or later...

They inherited this case with Kreuziger and I understand the frustration of it not coming to and end.

His problem. Not the UCI ones. I guess a guy who makes millions could afford a guy to read toxic BPs, like JV (with wayyy less money in the pockets) for example can (the Horner one which he described as roller-coaster AFAIR)...

But truth to be told: He didn´t care about Kreuzigers numbers. He only cared about "what can this rider do for me". What a big a..hole he is. Shifting blame, when he knows better. A disgusting personality from A to Z.

They should be more ambitious.. I understand that potential BP cases in their nature has to bee monitored closely over a given time-span. IMO they should hire more experts so WHEN they open a case they have to reach a deadline of 3 -maximum 6 months.. This would propably result in more appeals, but so be it..

Other than the public belief: UCI is not FIFA. They have to turn every cent twice before spending. I give them the benefit of doubt... BP cases are expensive enough.

"3 -maximum 6 months"... Why? Because the public can´t wait? Better take your time, even if it takes years. But make it waterproof...

 

[leon993]

In any civil legal suit, you has document that you have suffered a financial loss.
For Tinkoff it is easy, he pays contract salary and get nothing in return as Roman is suspended. For Roman it is more difficult, he has to document future losses.

A critical point in Tinkoff vs. UCI is the alleged BP violation is prior to his TS contract and, as far I know, UCI is contacted for approval before contract is considered final. Does anyone how this approval work?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

And the UCI has certainly proven over the years -To be of the latter

No saints at the UCI (that´s clear to everybody), still they were the first with the 50% rule, OOC tests, blood tests, blood monitoring, and hurting their business by throwing out their market players at tons per minute (Rasmussen, Ullrich, Basso, DiLuca, etc., etc.), and what else. Which other sport ever did that? That was a rhetorical question...

Furthermore Tinkov may be an evil criminal, but I have yet to see any arguments to this claim. Please enlighten me with details?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hamilton-on-tinkov-his-return-is-a-setback-for-cycling

 

[ToreBear]

I think it's a good decision to suspend him. His presence would have altered the dynamics of the race, and that would be unfair to everyone else in the race.

I hope the case is concluded in a reasonable amount of time in case he is innocent.

It's been one year or something since they opened the case, and it is good that they kept it secret until July when they decided that they would prosecute.

 

[No_Balls]

Cookson want's to improve the reputation of the UCI but the way this plays out they will come out as the bully..
If he cannnot grasp that the handling of this case is undermining him and the reputation of UCI -then he clearly needs advice..

Yes, it is not difficult seeing how they uses the passport as a political instrument against certain riders with the one hand, while lending out "horses and ox-steroids" to certain bald and bigheaded compatriots in the team of Cookson, with the other.

No wonder it takes this much time. With all this opportunities he simply doesnt when or where to push the button hence the "start of every big and important race" is a good start.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Yes, it is not difficult seeing how they uses the passport as a political instrument against certain riders with the one hand, while lending out "horses and ox-steroids" to certain bald and bigheaded compatriots in the team of Cookson, with the other.

No wonder it takes this much time. With all this opportunities he simply doesnt when or where to push the button hence the "start of every big and important race" is a good start.

So him, King Cookson, the master of all, sits on his throne like Ceasar, doing the thumbs up or down, depending of his liking? Not that there are other members in the UCI who might leak something if that was all true. Not that some guys of the BP panel would leak something. No, no, it´s a big conspiracy vs some riders...

Oh my...

Who of ya all know for certain that the UCI isn´t looking with high suspicion into the passports of Horner, AC, or Froome, and else? Wouldn´t it be more logical that Kreuziger and JTL were sooo far out of parameters that they finally decided to do a case? But do it waterproof. Which by logic takes a whole lot of time? I go by logic... And that´s the most plausible.