Kreuziger going down?

[IzzyStradlin]

Let's argue for a minute hypothyroidism is real for RK and uses levothyroxine.

Kreuziger would not be the only athlete with a "real" thyroid problem:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323550604578412913149043072

 

[Afrank]

Moved a couple posts to the Hesjedal thread (see link provided by RR above).

 

[TomasC]

It isn't strange, EPO counts among blood doping.

You're right, I was automatically thinking transfusion.
Whatever, he did probably both

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Moved a couple posts to the Hesjedal thread (see link provided by RR above).

then you need to remove all of the Ryder posts - RR introduced erroneous data to say Kreuziger and Ryder are not comparable, or that Ryder's data is fine when that is speculation.

 

[Race Radio]

then you need to remove all of the Ryder posts - RR introduced erroneous data to say Kreuziger and Ryder are not comparable, or that Ryder's data is fine when that is speculation.

Let us know when you have Kreuziger's numbers so we can compare them. If you think the links/numbers I gave are "Erroneous" then discuss it in the already established thread on the topic.

Pretty simple

 

[mrhender]

I'am most likely wrong.
But could it be possible that UCI won't appeal?

It is just a hunch, but if they are so sure in their case why not automatically appeal the decision? They must have anticipated this verdict, given the fact that national authorities seldom takes responsibility of guilty-verdicts in these high-pofile cases.

Could it be, that they just can't be sure of the final result and that a loss would be a game-changer they can't afford..
Maybe better to keep this under the carpet and move on to a more "fragile" subject.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I'am most likely wrong.
But could it be possible that UCI won't appeal?

It is just a hunch, but if they are so sure in their case why not automatically appeal the decision? They must have anticipated this verdict, given the fact that national authorities seldom takes responsibility of guilty-verdicts in these high-pofile cases.

Could it be, that they just can't be sure of the final result and that a loss would be a game-changer they can't afford..
Maybe better to keep this under the carpet and move on to a more "fragile" subject.

Per other posts, the guy has money to aggressively defend and therefore a terrible rider to sanction.

Either something did not work out like the UCI planned, or they rushed this one for some special reason. It's not like he's going to be the only one with abnormal profile in a GT.

Options:
-appeal
-do a McQuaid and conveniently forget every quote from every previous interview on the topic and let the Czech ruling stand.

EDIT:
-the "soft ban" where his case stalls until he gets the message it's time to leave the WT.
- No appeal. Blacklist him on the WT for 2015.

 

[mrhender]

Per other posts, the guy has money to aggressively defend and therefore a terrible rider to sanction.

Either something did not work out like the UCI planned, or they rushed this one for some special reason. It's not like he's going to be the only one with abnormal profile in a GT.

Cookson's only two choices are to appeal or do a McQuaid and conveniently forget every quote from every previous interview on the topic and let the Czech ruling stand. I don't see another way forward.

It's all a bit strange..

Maybe they felt that they had to stamp their mark when Kreuziger went back to the TS roster.. Then Cookson invested his person in the case, and they had to follow up in court. As I remeber there was no decision of going to court before Cookson's statement. After that everything might went wrong...

That would explain the rush of the case now leading them to hesistate on what could be inconclusive numbers.. Even though the word "rush" seems laughable given the time period the case is based upon..

It could be that the numbers are not more severe than possible to challenge for a guy with kreuziger's means..

The point is, this is a high-profile rider and a high profiled case..
Why let the notion of "clean" verdict sink in with the public..

Stakes are high now...

 

[del1962]

I'am most likely wrong.
But could it be possible that UCI won't appeal?

It is just a hunch, but if they are so sure in their case why not automatically appeal the decision? They must have anticipated this verdict, given the fact that national authorities seldom takes responsibility of guilty-verdicts in these high-pofile cases.

Could it be, that they just can't be sure of the final result and that a loss would be a game-changer they can't afford..
Maybe better to keep this under the carpet and move on to a more "fragile" subject.

Probably because they will have to review the Czech's decision before proceeding? These things will take a few days.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Kreuziger is relatively small fry, a ban will barely be noticeable on the Wiki pages.

But nailing Kreuziger will strengthen the passport "concept", so yea this is headed for CAS.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Probably because they will have to review the Czech's decision before proceeding? These things will take a few days.

Don't you normally appeal specific points of a decision ? So very much need the decision in hand.

 

[mrhender]

Probably because they will have to review the Czech's decision before proceeding? These things will take a few days.

I don't know how it plays out formally with an appeal, but that wasn't the overall point.
I was referring to the press release from the UCI in wich they say they will consider to appeal.

They could easily say in the press release that they are certain in their case and will appeal. Except they did not. My point was based on the previous PR-side of the matter where UCI and Cookson had no problem of telling the world how serious it was, and how they had to intervene to stop him from racing. Their argument was that he would change the dynamics of the race if allowed to participate. Now they are facing the same scenario.

Now he is free to race again, so if nothing have changed as to how UCI percepts their case, then why not make it official at once, and then hurry up with the formal appeal to stop him from racing. Remember they only provisionally suspended him after he was back on the team roster. Situation is the same now. Unless they don't care as he will not participate in high-profile races compared to the Tour.
Something has changed.. I'am looking forward to see their next move in the handling of this case, they seem more cautious now. We could be in for a surprise.

Edit: I should have been clearer about the the PR-part originally of course. I can see how it could easily be interpreted differently.

 

[Race Radio]

Probably because they will have to review the Czech's decision before proceeding? These things will take a few days.

Even after translation there is little in the decision, it is very vague. No numbers, little detail on Kreuziger's defense.....But the UCI already knew his defense.

In the past they have waited to almost the entire allotted time before filing the appeal. Expect they will do the same here.

 

[neineinei]

There are two other cases in cycling where riders was cleared by their federations in bio passport cases; Valjavec and Pellizotti. Both cases were taken to CAS, and both were free to race, but their contracts were up at the end of the season, and they couldn't find new teams (at the highest level).

Valjavec was free to ride again while waiting for the CAS hearing, but when at the end of the season his contract was up, the team sponsor (Ag2R) didn't want the team to resign him. He eventually got a contract with Turkish continenta team Manisaspor Cycling Team in March, only to lose at CAS in April.

Pellizotti was cleared by the Italian anti-doping tribunal in October 2010. The same tribunal had already handed out bans to De Bonis and Caucchioli in passport cases, but when it came to Pellizotti they didn't find the case strong enough. Pellizotti was free to race, but the season was over. His contract was up, and Liquigas didn't renew it. The CAS hearing was held in March 2011, and Pellizotti lost.

And then there is of course Contador. He too was cleared by his federaton, and was free to ride while waiting for the CAS hearing.

IAAF has a rule for provisionally suspending athletes who's case are appealed to CAS.

IAAF Appeal of Decisions to CAS
15. The decision as to whether the IAAF should appeal to CAS, or whether the IAAF should participate in a CAS appeal to which it is not an original party (see Rule 42.19), shall be taken by the Doping Review Board. The Doping Review Board shall, where applicable, determine at the same time whether the Athlete concerned shall be resuspended pending the CAS decision.

Can't find anything like it for UCI

 

[Race Radio]

IAAF has a rule for provisionally suspending athletes who's case are appealed to CAS.


Can't find anything like it for UCI

Maybe the Doping Review board is the same as the TUE review board?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Kreuziger is relatively small fry, a ban will barely be noticeable on the Wiki pages.

But nailing Kreuziger will strengthen the passport "concept", so yea this is headed for CAS.

But, as Race Radio pointed out he's got money to mount a strong defense which, probably won't matter, but still makes the relatively new kind of sanction, very risky to take to sanction.

To be clear, we don't know the specific values the UCI is calling anomalous, but my recollection is the claim is RK's values (that aren't published) go the opposite direction than what is seen in a non-doping grand tour rider.

 

[BYOP88]

But, as Race Radio pointed out he's got money to mount a strong defense which, probably won't matter, but still makes the relatively new kind of sanction, very risky to take to sanction.

To be clear, we don't know the specific values the UCI is calling anomalous, but my recollection is the claim is RK's values (that aren't published) go the opposite direction than what is seen in a non-doping grand tour rider.

So the numbers go the 'garmin way'?

 

[DirtyWorks]

So the numbers go the 'garmin way'?

We don't know exactly. Which, is very consistent for elite cycling.

 

[mrhender]

Reasoned decision -Dog fight

Had a private exchange with Donkey who was helpful to translate some of the reasoned decision to answer my questions...
He mentioned that some of it was quite ironic and gave me this to pass on:

Hi,

actually the paragraph 4.11. say that
the commision was repeatedly from various reasons rather strongly asked to follow UCI ADR strictly by UCI lawyer. Repeatedly UCI tried to question the commision's impartiallity and independence.
and then it comes:
a bit hypocrite was when UCI warned that it's necessary to lead the proceeding due to the rules of fair process. the commision is sure that fair process is not to follow a procedure which wether completely agrees with UCI or gives UCI an advantage.

now a completely ironic sentence about that it would be a laugh of a fair process

then a lot of explanation why the commision didn't break any rules and was absolutely fair and then...

The commision woudl like to insist that in spite of what it would call inappropriate expressions from UCI....etc...

a quite funny stuff

Doesn't take much imagination to .....................
I begin to understand why cookson want's to avoid these dramas

 

[del1962]

Down to race tomorrow

 

[thehog]

Actually,thyroid problem and treatment with L-thyroxine as an explanation is mentioned already in De Boer's opinion dated 25/8/2013. Only after UCI rejected this explanation,Hampton presented additional supporting opinion.

He had also informed Astana when they hired him. Additionally the UCI's experts attempted to use "theory" based on a 1 week stage race where's Roman used a report based on the 3rd week of a GT.

And when you correlate the circumstances in the Giro you have to ask what were the UCI thinking in bringing this case forward?

http://romankreuziger.com/en/the-worst-day-of-my-career/

The worst day of my career

What happened?I had agonizing cramps. I got cramps in my legs and from my wrists they shot all the way to my neck. It was killing me but I couldn’t go any more. No hunger-knock, I just suffered from severe cramps. Did you know outright that something bad was going to happen?Of course. Good thing that Kangert waited for me. Thanks to him I was able to finish the stage. Riding the last climb on Passo Gieu was a sheer torture for me. I was close to wrapping it up. Several times I had to pull up and get off the bike to shake my legs.How are you feeling now that your hopes for the good result in GC have been dashed?I feel terrible. I feel really bad for the team´s sake because they believed in me and worked hard for me. And also for all the huge crowds of the Czech fans who were lined along the route and cheered for me even though I could barely pedal. I thank them all for the support and I feel disappointed that I let them down. One thing is sure: I have messed up my Giro. What will happen next?Tomorrow is an easy stage on the program. Hopefully, I will manage to recover properly but currently I have no idea what legs I will have. My hopes for the GC are dashed so I would like to get a stage win, at least. I will try to get in a breakaway but whether I will win a stage is something I can´t promise. Are you mentally exhausted? Very much. Things turned out the way nobody had imagined. I liked the stage and I was hoping it would suit me. I was sitting in a good position in the GC but now…I find it hard to talk about it. It is one of the worst days of my career. Once again, I would like to thank all my fans for their support.

http://romankreuziger.com/en/not-feeling-any-better-i-had-cramps-at-night/

Not feeling any better, I had cramps at night


Are you feeling any better?I had cramps at night and today again during the first 20 kilometers. If I´d had good legs then this would have been a recovery stage but since I experienced a terrible crisis on Wednesday, I suffered big time today. Somehow I managed to finish today´s stage but I don’t have a good feeling about it. Together with our masseur I am trying to figure out what is the root cause of my cramps but we still don’t have any answers. We will have more time for a more detailed analysis and tests after the Giro ends.What is your game plan for the following mountain stages?If I should feel just like today I will pull out of the race. I would love to try my luck in a breakaway but under these circumstances I don’t see that happening. I think tomorrow the favorites will give it everything and battle it out for a stage victory. I don’t think that a breakaway will stand a chance. I might wait until Saturday before I do something but the bottom line is that I will have to feel good. How much have you thought about your burn-out?It is still running through my head. I probably need more time to come to terms with it. It is not easy to get my act together because your mind is the key of success but I´m determined to do my best in the remaining stages of the Giro.What do you think of the criticism of your sports manger Martinelli? Have you talked about it?No, we haven’t. If I should react to this it will happen later on and somewhere else.Do you think that your yesterday´s performance will have an impact on your new contract?We will see that in the upcoming months.

 

[del1962]

So 18 days in and no news yet of an appeal from UCI or WADA, going by the UCI and the paralympics what are the chances of the deadline being missed as an admin error

Is it 28 days to appeal?

 

[Netserk]

IIRC they appealed on the very last day in the case against Contador, so I don't think that they haven't appealed yet means much.

 

[del1962]

IIRC they appealed on the very last day in the case against Contador, so I don't think that they haven't appealed yet means much.

Yeah anyway it is 30 days from receiving the reasoned decision, when did the UCI get this?

 

[thehog]

So 18 days in and no news yet of an appeal from UCI or WADA, going by the UCI and the paralympics what are the chances of the deadline being missed as an admin error

Is it 28 days to appeal?

I've checked Brain's Twitter feed and he hasn't posted a selfie in 18 days either!

What could this mean?

The UCI are not pursuing this one in my opinion. They are on shakey ground and presented some horrible sets of evidence. It's better if they let it slide.