Kreuziger going down?

[DirtyWorks]

I'd like to know what is BP based on.

Based on other similar posts, I'm lead to believe facts are not important. Just in case they really are important, then go to WADA's site and read the documentation.

Everything you want to know is there. Everything! It's so complete it can be used to cheat the system too.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Wasn't JTL officially 'provisionally suspended' once a case was actually opened ?

(so the December charging letter, rather than the query letter that got Sky/BC to remove him from competition)

 

[hrotha]

You haven't read Contador's CAS decision. I'll summarize it for you. Contador explicitely claimed the clen did not come from supplements and went to great effort to document it. CAS panel said it did. CAS panel decided what they decided and didn't use any facts to decide it was supplements.

Doesn't sound like you've read Contador's CAS decision either, because it didn't claim it was a supplement either. What it claimed was that Contador had to establish the steak theory was the most plausible scenario, which he didn't. CAS decided the steak theory and the UCI's contaminated blood bag theory were pretty much impossible, and since there was another theory that was more likely, Contador had failed to prove lack of negligence or intent on his part. CAS went out of its way to point out it did not necessarily believe the positive was caused by a contaminated supplement.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Firstly I think they shouldn't hear any people saying to drive drunk is OK.

Ah...it's you or not?

Are you drunk? Hello Kreuziger thread. Hello, you are ok? Doctor?

BTW, wasn´t it you saying to abuse children is ok?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Doesn't sound like you've read Contador's CAS decision either, because it didn't claim it was a supplement either. What it claimed was that Contador had to establish the steak theory was the most plausible scenario, which he didn't. CAS decided the steak theory and the UCI's contaminated blood bag theory were pretty much impossible, and since there was another theory that was more likely, Contador had failed to prove lack of negligence or intent on his part. CAS went out of its way to point out it did not necessarily believe the positive was caused by a contaminated supplement.

Things get useful about page 92.

Page 93, section 487 "it is incontestable that supplements may be contaminated... in light of all the evidence on record, the athlete's positive test for clenbuterol is more likely to have been caused by the ingestion of a contaminated supplement. "

Here's your view in the very next sentence.... "This does not mean that the Panel is convinced beyond a reasonable doubt..."

There's no arguing you hold a possible, optimistic interpretation. I just don't read it that way. The document even provides sound reasoning discrediting the supplements theory, yet that's what they went with anyway.

 

[hrotha]

They did not go with it. They simply suspended Contador because he had failed to establish there was no negligence on his part. The supplement theory was only one of the possible theories that CAS notes would explain the positive better than the virtually impossible contaminated meat hypothesis. Nothing else.

It's not about giving it an optimistic interpretation. It's right there in the decision.

 

[Catwhoorg]

There are known cases of supplement contamination form before, around the time of and after Contador's test. (heck that will be the defence of a few of the CG positives I am sure).

There is no evidence of clenbuterol in beef in Europe for a long time, despite many tests taken across the continent.

The balance of probabilities clearly suggests the former.

 

[MarkvW]

I don't think you can conflate analytical / non analytical positive cases with biopassport cases because the rules are different.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I don't think you can conflate analytical / non analytical positive cases with biopassport cases because the rules are different.

The reason the thread went astray was because of my opinion of the quality of CAS as an arbitrator, not really the Contador case itself.

Perhaps another way to say it is my estimation is Roman's chances at CAS are slim. I'm assuming the UCI hasn't screwed up the sanction administration is some way. We know that's happened too.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

That was their own internal protocol which established it with him. He was suspended and it wasn't initiated by the UCI in the first place.

The UCI and CADF were notified of this on the part by Sky.

Duh. I was responding to the claim that, "All riders are treated the same" (by the UCI).

I am not sure why you are responding to me when quite plainly you agree, based on the content of your post, yet nowhere in your post do you say, "I agree". In fact you could almost say your post could be interpreted as, "I disagree", yet here we are, finding no content that disagrees.

Very weird.

 

[neineinei]

UCI have, as far as we know, sanctioned 12 cyclists on the basis of the biological passport:

2010 - Igor Astarloa
2013 or 2014 - Carlos Barredo
2013 or 2014 - Leonardo Bertagnolli
2010 - Pietro Caucchioli - CAS decision
2010 - Francesco De Bonis, took the case to CAS and lost
2013 or 2014 - Leif Hoste
2010 - Rubén Lobato
2014 - Denis Menchov
2010 - Franco Pellizotti - CAS decision.
2010 - Ricardo Serrano
2014 - Jonathan Tiernan-Locke
2010 - Tadej Valjavec - CAS decision

(Sérgio Ribeiro was probably caught by the ABP program of Autoridade Antidopagen de Portugal, Thomas Dekker had an EPO positive, Antonio Colom ditto)

I'm not sure that the date/year of the cases are correct, but there seems to have been a load in 2010, and then nothing in 2011 and 2012, and then another load last year and now.

Meanwhile, in athletics, more than 30 athletes (runners: 400 m-Marathon and race walkers) have been sanctioned in ABP cases. I've only found one decision in CAS, IAAF won. The case of Asli Çakır Alptekin has also been taken to CAS, but there haven't been a decision yet.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Meanwhile, in athletics, more than 30 athletes (runners: 400 m-Marathon and race walkers) have been sanctioned in ABP cases. I've only found one decision in CAS, IAAF won. The case of Asli Çakır Alptekin has also been taken to CAS, but there haven't been a decision yet.

There's more going on than that, but it depends on how the case is handled. It makes getting a reasonable sense of the numbers very frustrating regardless of the sport.

CAS recently reduced the infamous Jamaican track and field sanctions and made JADCO pay the athlete's legal costs!

I'm not sure if your "Russian" track and field sanctions are in that list. 30+ from Russia alone before Sochi. Most without much of an explanation.

With the exception of the pre-Sochi sanctions, it always ends up being no more than 2% in WADA stats. Frustrating!

 

[mrhender]

http://romankreuziger.com/mr-roman-...owing-provisional-suspension-by-uci-5-8-2014/

- Mr. Kreuziger and his legal counsel strongly oppose the UCI decision, which has no basis in the UCI legislation, allowing imposition of a provisional suspension only in cases of a positive A sample, which is not Mr. Kreuziger’s case. Other preliminary measures can only be imposed when there exists a risk that the results of a race might be affected by the alleged doping activity of the rider (it’s hard to imagine how the 2014 race results could be affected by a blood profile finding from 2012?), and only after providing the rider an opportunity to deliver a written submission – which did not happen.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cookson-passport-cases-can-now-be-treated-as-positive-tests

"What I will say is that these things are taking too long to resolve, but what was particularly worrying about this case was that his own team withdrew him from the Tour de France because of the Biological Passport but then put him back into competition at the Tour of Poland. That was an extremely odd thing to do in my opinion. So what we've decided to do is look at all of these cases and treat them, if we can, as the equivalent to being an A sample positive test."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tin...ing-kreuzigers-biological-passport-suspension

Tinkoff-Saxo did not suspend Kreuziger before the Tour de France but opted "not to send him to TdF to protect him and the team (which was trying to win that race) from media attention, speculation and to allow him to get his defence organized," the team explains in its letter.

The key thing is that Cookson finds the behaviour of the team odd
and choses as he does to hand out the provisional suspension...
A decision like this should not be made because Cookson (who claims to be sidelined and know nothing) fails to understand common sense by the Team who did not want this case to overshadow their Tour and conflict with their overall interests...

 

[MartinGT]

Wasn't JTL officially 'provisionally suspended' once a case was actually opened ?

(so the December charging letter, rather than the query letter that got Sky/BC to remove him from competition)

Wasnt that Sky suspending him?

 

[Colonel]

While I dont believe Roman is clean I do however see him getting off from this. The way it was handled by UCI from start to now is wrong and very hand about *** and has some loopholes and hidden agenda here.

I may be wrong but this is my gut feel that he will walk from this and have to get his **** together going forward. He is also to valuable to Tinkof as a rider for them to allow him to be raked over the coals.

 

[Martina]

There we go with the "severe violation"

... blood profile data at no time exceeded the limit values set by the UCI itself, but only approached the limits on one occasion, which was caused by extreme dehydration after (an unsuccessful) mountain stage of the Giro d’Italia 2012.

http://romankreuziger.com/mr-roman-...owing-provisional-suspension-by-uci-5-8-2014/

There will be interview on Czech TV Sport today at 16:25 with RK.

EDIT: few words after the 2012 stage: http://romankreuziger.com/en/the-worst-day-of-my-career/

 

[TomasC]

Well, I guess RK has a PR advantage now, he can publicly speak about his views of the situation. We won't get any comments about the specifics of the violation from the UCI nor the ABP experts.
At CAS it may be another story though.

 

[nomapnocompass]

We won't get any comments about the specifics of the violation from the UCI nor the ABP experts.
At CAS it may be another story though.

That hasn't stopped 'mr professional' Brian Cookson from commenting and saying there were 'serious abnormalities', after of course he said he couldn't comment. Cookson needs to resign as soon as possible and let someone competent take over.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Wasnt that Sky suspending him?

I know Sky/BC withdrew him when the query letter went public (well just a little before, presumably as Walsh said hey guys I am running this story) he was down to ride the Worlds and got pulled just before, but then posted pictures of a training ride with friends the weekend of the Worlds.

I thought the UCI (or maybe UKAD) issued an official provisional suspension once charges were brought.

There is nothing to that effect in the UKAD statement so maybe I am misremembering.

 

[TomasC]

That hasn't stopped 'mr professional' Brian Cookson from commenting and saying there were 'serious abnormalities', after of course he said he couldn't comment. Cookson needs to resign as soon as possible and let someone competent take over.

Yeah that was cr*p. I was mainly reacting to Martina's post where she seems to take Romans' words for granted.
Of course there are more serious problems in RK's ABP than one value approaching some limit if three independent ABP experts flagged it as most likely doping.

 

[neineinei]

There's more going on than that, but it depends on how the case is handled. It makes getting a reasonable sense of the numbers very frustrating regardless of the sport.

CAS recently reduced the infamous Jamaican track and field sanctions and made JADCO pay the athlete's legal costs!

I'm not sure if your "Russian" track and field sanctions are in that list. 30+ from Russia alone before Sochi. Most without much of an explanation.

With the exception of the pre-Sochi sanctions, it always ends up being no more than 2% in WADA stats. Frustrating!

The problem with JADCO is that they have been understaffed, underfunded and incompetent (much like anti doping authorities generally).
The full CAS decision on the Powell/Simpson case hasn't been released yet.
But it seems plausible that Powell and Simpson were able to prove that the food supplement had been contaminated with Oxilofrine, and that JADCO didn't have the good sense to back down in that situation, and that that was the reason they have to pay for the CAS hearing. The case is just more proof that JADCO is incompetent.

The 30+ biological passport cases in athletics are cases reported by IAAF as ABP cases in their communications about sanctioned athletes (the IAAF doping sanctions newsletter, and the IAAF list of currently sanctioned athletes). There is no doubt a very high number of Russians on that list, but even without them the number of ABP sanctions in athletics are higher than the number of UCI ABP-cases. (Wang Jiali (China), Eirini Kokkinariou (Greece), Maksym Cerrone Obrubanskyy (Italy), Abderrahim Goumri (Morocco), Halima Hachlaf (Morocco), Marco Morgado (Portugal), Hélder Ornelas (Portugal), José Rocha (Portugal), Fernando Silva (Portugal), Mohammed Shaween (Saudi Arabia), Alemitu Bekele (Turkey), Meryem Erdoğan (Turkey), Pınar Saka (Turkey), Tetiana Petlyuk (Ukraine), Anzhelika Shevchenko (Ukraine) and Lyudmyla Yosypenko (Ukraine)).

 

[veganrob]

Yeah that was cr*p. I was mainly reacting to Martina's post where she seems to take Romans' words for granted.
Of course there are more serious problems in RK's ABP than one value approaching some limit if three independent ABP experts flagged it as most likely doping.

That is not the way Roman describes the experts opinions


"Experts confirm that there is no evidence of any alleged anti-doping rule violation in my case. This has been going on since June 2013, and still there is no formal case opened against me. Despite this I’m now provisionally suspended. I sincerely hope that this situation can be resolved quickly and not turned into a political matter."

 

[neineinei]

Oleg is behaving just as expected (as a 3 year old not getting his ice cream). Roman is defending himself as best he can. No information from either of them can be trusted. Still my problem with this case is how Cookson is handling the case. In May he said he couldn't and shouldn't comment on ongoing doping cases. This is completely forgotten by August. He has also said that CADF is independent now. The independence only lasted until he read in the news that Kreuziger was going to race again.Then CADF wasn't independent anymore and the UCI president was the one deciding what they were to do again.

CADF should be independent. Give them the resources, staff and rules they need to be able to do their job, and then let them do that job without intervention and overruling. If the UCI rules are so useless that they can't stop riders from raceing even when CADF are certain that they have a fool proof doping case against him, the rules needs to be changed.

 

[TomasC]

That is not the way Roman describes the experts opinions


"Experts confirm that there is no evidence of any alleged anti-doping rule violation in my case. This has been going on since June 2013, and still there is no formal case opened against me. Despite this I’m now provisionally suspended. I sincerely hope that this situation can be resolved quickly and not turned into a political matter."

I was talking about ABP panel experts, not RK's experts.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Oleg is behaving just as expected (as a 3 year old not getting his ice cream). Roman is defending himself as best he can. No information from either of them can be trusted. Still my problem with this case is how Cookson is handling the case. In May he said he couldn't and shouldn't comment on ongoing doping cases. This is completely forgotten by August. He has also said that CADF is independent now. The independence only lasted until he read in the news that Kreuziger was going to race again.Then CADF wasn't independent anymore and the UCI president was the one deciding what they were to do again.

Hmmmm. I dunno. Oleg is pouring a lot of money into the sport and relying on the multi-million dollar riders whose salaries he's paying to get some runs on the board for sponsorship ROI.

No formal charges (?) have been laid. RK hasn't been suspended. Therefore racing him is the most logical, $1M p.a. thing to do.

To have someone arbitrarily jump into the process and suspend RK out of the blue, make comments about the case that essentially declare RK guilty, just weeks after calling Team Sky, "my friends", where his son is employed. Team Sky, who also had weirdness going on with Henao, but managed to reinstate him no worries...

He's a drunk. I think he's acting inappropriately, yes. But not like a 3 year old.

I think he has valid grievances, and whilst I personally would prefer to have him walk softly and carry a big stick, I don't see responding publicly to a very public indictment from the UCI as childish.