Kreuziger going down?

[DirtyWorks]

It's to Kreuziger's benefit to have his attorneys drag this stuff out as long as possible now that he will be able to race again.

The question of racing again is not answered. My guess, based on how the UCI handled this affair from the beginning is he's not racing. Don't worry, they've got a rule for that. They always do.

 

[Donkey]

Reasoned decision here: http://www.olympic.cz/upload/files/ROZHODCI-KOMISE-NALEZ-O.pdf


Maybe a kind poster in control of the Czech language can translate some of it to answer (if possible) following questions I have:


1. Is there any specific details as to the "numbers" of the abnormalities?

2. Which specific explanations did the defence give to these abnormalities?

3. They say in the press release that there is no evidence of an anti-doping violation. I know that at least one of RK's experts has been pubilcally arguing the passport is flawed, and to some extent useless..
Is the decision based on a "new" kind of interpretation of the BP and it's validity? If so, then a duplicate of the result in CAS could be a game-changer.

(of course anything of interest that springs to mind would be appreciated)

On another note.. UCI not appealing instantly surprises me a bit.
Since the president himself has jeopardised his credibility on the case, then this hesitation seems a bit weird to me. Why let the news go out that he is clear without immediate response.. Why let the headline of cleared sink in, when it has obviously been a high profile PR-case all the way through.

1. I'm not sure what you mean. Please explain more
2. So...basically. Hypothyrosis or how is it called was healed by L-Thyroxin which was responsible for increased reticulosite levels. UCI didn't work with the fact the Hypothyrosis changed into its manifest form.
in case of hemoglobin values which were increased instead of decreased at some points they said it was not only RK who had it like that and that there are individual differencies. moreover he had the same thing in Tour 2011.

3. RK has said a lot of samples were badly stored etc. etc. but the commision said he didn't prove that and moreover he didn't prove the values suffered from that and that the fact has changed the bio passport outcome.

so in 3) he was unsuccesful.

there's also a pharagraph about UCI itself and it's demands and it's quite ironic.

I must say that what I read makes sense to me. They are simply saying that
1) the values didn't exceed the limits, so 99% rule can't be applied
2) there are other than doping reasons which could have resulted into such values and they are not silly or unlikely so simply the doping was not proved and he can't be sanctioned.

 

[MatParker117]

This will end up at CAS.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Kreuziger will burn up some more cash on his way to being banned....

 

[Race Radio]

I was under the impression this was an independent panel but it wasn't.

The BioPassport ruling came from G. D'Onofrio, R. Parisotto and Y.O. Schumacher. They were certain about their position(in their ruling they said it was "HIGHLY Likely" he doped

It appears that if he loses he is on the hook for almost 800,000 Euros in fines and costs

He was tested during the 3rd week of the Giro, May 20, 2012 May 24, 2012. These tests showed an increase in Hgb and decrease in Rect.....Very odd for the 3rd week of a GT

Funny how they they do not give any of the results of these tests. Would be interesting to see the numbers

Thyroid medicine? Gotta laugh as it is a common doping technique used to cut weight before a GT. Ullrich loved that stuff. I can't imagine using that stuff in in a GT.

 

[BYOP88]

I was under the impression this was an independent panel but it wasn't.

The BioPassport ruling came from G. D'Onofrio, R. Parisotto and Y.O. Schumacher. They were certain about their position(in their ruling they said it was "HIGHLY Likely" he doped

It appears that if he loses he is on the hook for almost 800,000 Euros in fines and costs

He was tested during the 3rd week of the Giro, May 20, 2012 May 24, 2012. These tests showed an increase in Hgb and decrease in Rect.....Very odd for the 3rd week of a GT

Funny how they they do not give any of the results of these tests. Would be interesting to see the numbers

Thyroid medicine? Gotta laugh as it is a common doping technique used to cut weight before a GT. Ullrich loved that stuff. I can't imagine using that stuff in in a GT.

His defense team needs to use the "Vaughters defense" and Roman will be as free as a bird.

 

[Rollthedice]

I was under the impression this was an independent panel but it wasn't.

The BioPassport ruling came from G. D'Onofrio, R. Parisotto and Y.O. Schumacher. They were certain about their position(in their ruling they said it was "HIGHLY Likely" he doped

It appears that if he loses he is on the hook for almost 800,000 Euros in fines and costs

He was tested during the 3rd week of the Giro, May 20, 2012 May 24, 2012. These tests showed an increase in Hgb and decrease in Rect.....Very odd for the 3rd week of a GT

Funny how they they do not give any of the results of these tests. Would be interesting to see the numbers

Thyroid medicine? Gotta laugh as it is a common doping technique used to cut weight before a GT. Ullrich loved that stuff. I can't imagine using that stuff in in a GT.

Wasn't this the same in Horner's Vuelta test that he made public?

 

[Donkey]

I was under the impression this was an independent panel but it wasn't.

The BioPassport ruling came from G. D'Onofrio, R. Parisotto and Y.O. Schumacher. They were certain about their position(in their ruling they said it was "HIGHLY Likely" he doped

It appears that if he loses he is on the hook for almost 800,000 Euros in fines and costs

He was tested during the 3rd week of the Giro, May 20, 2012 May 24, 2012. These tests showed an increase in Hgb and decrease in Rect.....Very odd for the 3rd week of a GT

Funny how they they do not give any of the results of these tests. Would be interesting to see the numbers

Thyroid medicine? Gotta laugh as it is a common doping technique used to cut weight before a GT. Ullrich loved that stuff. I can't imagine using that stuff in in a GT.

Kreuziger certainly doesn't look like a rider who needs to lose weight dramatically, don't you think?

 

[Race Radio]

Wasn't this the same in Horner's Vuelta test that he made public?

Yes, but the big question the amount of the variance.

Horner had haemoglobin readings of 15.8 g/dL on June 27th, then 15.2 g/dL on August 22nd, two days before the start of the Vuelta. His values in the race were 14.4 g/dL on August 29th, 13.5 g/dL on September 3rd, 14.3 g/dL on September 7th and 14.6 g/dL on September 14th, one day before the race finished.

Would be interesting to see Kreuziger's numbers. Wonder why they left it out of the report?

 

[Race Radio]

Kreuziger certainly doesn't look like a rider who needs to lose weight dramatically, don't you think?

How do you think he got that way?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I was under the impression this was an independent panel but it wasn't.

The BioPassport ruling came from G. D'Onofrio, R. Parisotto and Y.O. Schumacher. They were certain about their position(in their ruling they said it was "HIGHLY Likely" he doped

It appears that if he loses he is on the hook for almost 800,000 Euros in fines and costs

He was tested during the 3rd week of the Giro, May 20, 2012 May 24, 2012. These tests showed an increase in Hgb and decrease in Rect.....Very odd for the 3rd week of a GT

Funny how they they do not give any of the results of these tests. Would be interesting to see the numbers

Thyroid medicine? Gotta laugh as it is a common doping technique used to cut weight before a GT. Ullrich loved that stuff. I can't imagine using that stuff in in a GT.

Perhaps we could ask Vaughters? How did his riders - hesjedal and wiggins - have the same anomalis?

 

[Catwhoorg]

Horner's 2013 Data

Date HGB Ret% Offscore
3/13/2013 13.7 0.5 94.57
6/26/2013 15.8 0.7 107.8
8/22/2013 15.2 0.85 96.7
8/29/2013 14.4 0.39 106.53
9/3/2013 13.5 0.54 90.91
9/7/2013 14.3 0.55 98.5
9/14/2013 14.6 0.56 101.1

 

[Catwhoorg]

In graph form

(I have posted this before)

 

[TomasC]

...
He was tested during the 3rd week of the Giro, May 20, 2012 May 24, 2012. These tests showed an increase in Hgb and decrease in Rect.....Very odd for the 3rd week of a GT
...

What I found there is that both his Hgb AND retics increased during the Giro. E.g. article 5.2, first paragraph. Where did you find the info about those tests and decreased retics please?

 

[TomasC]

I love the argument by Kreuziger that it cannot be considered normal that your hgb decreases in the course of a GT, because there are other riders who showed increased hgb in a GT (i.e. other dopers).

 

[Benotti69]

I bet Cookson's bank account at Tinkov is making a tidy sum......

 

[SeriousSam]

I love the argument by Kreuziger that it cannot be considered normal that your hgb decreases in the course of a GT, because there are other riders who showed increased hgb in a GT (i.e. other dopers).

That's a pretty good argument if those other riders aren't regarded as anomalous.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

That's a pretty good argument if those other riders aren't regarded as anomalous.

lol, gotta be a bit of a cocaine sniffing car crash lawyer to think that argument has any legs at CAS considering the stakes.

Much more is needed, otherwise Kreuziger is definitely going down.

 

[TomasC]

That's a pretty good argument if those other riders aren't regarded as anomalous.

Sure, hopefully none of those riders gets caught before the CAS hearings.

 

[ralphbert]

The anti doping system is so broken. Laughable.

 

[Race Radio]

Perhaps we could ask Vaughters? How did his riders - hesjedal and wiggins - have the same anomalis?

If you have Kreuzinger's numbers please share with us so we can compare. I wonder if they compare to Ryder's MASSIVE jump?

May 14, 2012
Hb: 14.1
Hct: 42.3
Retic: 1.56

May 17, 2012 AM
Hb: 14.1
Hct: 43.4
Retic: 1.34

May 17, 2012 PM
Hb: 14.1
Hct: 43.4
Retic 1.71

May 18, 2012
Hb:14.4
Hct: 42.6
Retic: 1.74

 

[SeriousSam]

lol, gotta be a bit of a cocaine sniffing car crash lawyer to think that argument has any legs at CAS considering the stakes.

Much more is needed, otherwise Kreuziger is definitely going down.

If Horner is fit (to ride) you must acquit.

 

[DirtyWorks]

If I'm reading the numbers right, (never assume this) then am I right in suggesting the UCI is actually after someone for "too normal" values during a grand tour?

Usually they pick some weak targets and knock them down, especially with new kinds of sanctions.

EDIT: Veloclinic just posted something similar; http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/98144785058/probability-vs-expert-opinion

 

[Race Radio]

If I'm reading the numbers right, (never assume this) then am I right in suggesting the UCI is actually after someone for "too normal" values during a grand tour?

Usually they pick some weak targets and knock them down, especially with new kinds of sanctions.

EDIT: Veloclinic just posted something similar; http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/98144785058/probability-vs-expert-opinion

Which numbers? I have not seen any numbers yet. The wording in the decision is vague. When they say the numbers are within the parameters I am not sure if they are referring to old school parameters like the 50% Hct rule or the theoretical parameters of how blood values could react during a GT

Kreuziger is far from a weak target. He comes from a wealthy family. He has plenty of money to fight this. He is likely the worst target there is

 

[DirtyWorks]

Which numbers? I have not seen any numbers yet.....

Kreuziger is far from a weak target. He comes from a wealthy family. He has plenty of money to fight this. He is likely the worst target there is

Regarding numbers, I jumped to a conclusion based on the vague idea of abnormal values in the decision. We need numbers!!

Per your detail, it is such a risky case whatever somebody did to the UCI, the UCI did not think beyond sanctioning the guy.