Kreuziger going down?

Page 33 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Sep 29, 2012
12,197
0
0
If Kreuziger manages to overturn a BP case the implications extend far beyond cycling and the UCI. The entire WADA system is essentially based on this premise of tracking parameters and pinging weirdness vs having a proven test for every drug and them some.

The precedent would either
1. weaken the BP further
2. allow many other sports and athletes a "GET OUT OF JAIL" card based on similar arguments (depending on those illusive values of course) until the system is modified to catch up

WADA need to support the UCI here - assuming he is guilty.

IOC need to think carefully about what they are allowing to happen here via their Czech branch: it's potentially damaging to them as well.
 
Aug 13, 2009
12,854
2
0
DirtyWorks said:
Regarding numbers, I jumped to a conclusion based on the vague idea of abnormal values in the decision. We need numbers!!

Per your detail, it is such a risky case whatever somebody did to the UCI, the UCI did not think beyond sanctioning the guy.

I still need to see the numbers, but I doubt the UCI took a huge risk. The larger issue is the various Feds unwillingness to sanction their own riders. This is very similar to Contador on the Spanish Fed
 
Jul 27, 2010
5,121
884
19,680
So is there a translation out there? I haven’t see anything but what has been posted on this thread. Which suggests that RK’s defense is, my parameters were completely normal, but just in case they weren’t, I have this thyroid problem that explains everything. Let’s recall that if JTL hadn’t had an off-score of 155, he would have skated on his other test, which was estimated to be significant at the level of < 0.001.

Anemia is often present in patients with hypothyroidism, and treatment with thyroxine or related hormones can stimulate reticulocyte synthesis and raise red blood cell levels. But assuming his suspicious values were a high Hb/retic ratio, I’m not sure how his defense is going to argue that thyroxine is the cause of the abnormalities.

Here are some useful studies:

Q J Med. 1976 Jan;45(177):101-23.
The haematology of hypothyroidism.
Horton L, Coburn RJ, England JM, Himsworth RL.
Abstract
In an unselected series of 202 patients with hypothyroidism anaemia was present on diagnosis in 39 of 172 women and 14 of 30 men. Microcytic anaemia was present in only nine patients in the entire series. The average of the mean corpuscular volume (MCV) of all the patients was 90 fl. Fifty-three of 118 patients who were studied in detail had normal serum concentrations of vitamin B12, folic acid and iron. The haemoglobin was low in 13 of these 53 patients and rose on treatment with thyroxine alone. The MCV exceeded 90 fl in 29 of these 53 patients and in three it was greater than 100 fl. The MCV invariably fell on treatment with thyroxine even if the initial value was within the normal range. Nine of this group of 53 patients had both anaemia and an increased MCV--the macrocytic anaemia of hypothyroidism. A minor degree of anisocytosis of the red blood cells, which was reduced by treatment with thyroxine, was also demonstrated. Acanthocytes were present in the blood films of 32 out of 172 patients but in only five did the abnormal cells comprise more than 0-5 per cent of the red cell population. The incidence of new cases of pernicious anaemia diagnosed concurrently with the hypothyroidism in the carefully studied group of 118 patients was 8-5 per cent. The MCV of hypothyroid patients with low levels of vitamin B12 was often no greater than in patients with uncomplicated hypothyroidism. The MCV is not therefore a useful discriminant in the diagnosis of pernicious anaemia in hypothyroidism. The serum iron concentration was less than 12 mumol/1 in 60 out of 118 patients. The total iron binding capacity of the serum was increased in only 21 of these 60 patients. In 42 hypothyroid patients the low serum iron concentration was not associated with low levels of either vitamin B12 or folate and of these patients 22 were anaemic. Despite the very low percentage saturation of the iron binding capacity in all of these patients with a low serum iron, a lack of iron did not seem to be the usual determinant of anaemia when it occurred.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Horton+AND+England+JM

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1975 Feb;40(2):211-20.
Erythropoiesis and erythropoietin in hypo- and hyperthyroidism.
Das KC, Mukherjee M, Sarkar TK, Dash RJ, Rastogi GK.
Abstract
Qualitative and quantitative studies of erythropoiesis in 23 patients with hypothyroidism and 21 patients with hyperthryoidism included routine hematologic evaluation, bone marrow morphology, status of serum iron, B12 and folate red blood cell mass and plasma volume by radioisotope methods, erythrokinetics and radiobioassay of plasma erythropoietin. A majority of patients with the hypothyroid state had significant reduction in red blood cell mas per kg of body weight. The presence of anemia in many of these patients was not evident from hemoglobin and hematocrit values due to concomitant reduction of plasma volume. The erythrokinetic data in hypothyroid patients provided evidence of significant decline of the erythropoietic activity of the bone marrow. Erythroid cells in the marrow were depleted and also showed reduced proliferative activity as indicated by lower 3H-thymidine labeling index [i.e, reduced reticulocyte synthesis]. Plasma erythropoietin levels were reduced, often being immeasurable by the polycythemic mouse bioassay technique. These changes in erythropoiesis in the hypothyroid state appear to be a part of physiological adjustment to the reduced oxygen requirement of the tissues due to diminished basal metabolic rate. Similar investigations revealed mild erythrocytosis in a significant proportion of patients with hyperthyroidism. Failure of erythrocytosis to occur in other patients of this group was associated with impaired erythropoiesis due to a deficiency of hemopoietic nutrients such as iron, vitamin B12 and folate. The mean plasma erythropoietin level of these patients was significantly elevated; in 4 patients the levels were in the upper normal range whereas in the rest, the values were above the normal range. The bone marrow showed erythyroid hyperplasia in all patients with hyperthyroidism. The mean 3H-thymidine labeling index of the erythroblasts was also significantly higher than normal in hyperthyroidism [increased reticulocyte synthesis]; in 8 patients the index was within the normal range whereas in the remaining 13 it was above the normal range. Erythrokinetic studies also provided evidences of increased erythropoietic activity in the bone marrow. It is postulated that thyroid hormones stimulate erythropoiesis, sometimes leading to erythrocytosis provided there is no deficiency of hemopoietic nutrients. Stimulation of erythropoiesis by thryoid hormones appears to be mediated through erythropoietin.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1117976

Med Clin North Am. 1975 Sep;59(5):1133-45.
Anemia in thyroid diseases.
Fein HG, Rivlin RS.
Abstract
Thyroid hormones generally stimulate erythropoiesis. These agents also increase erythrocyte 2,3-DPG concentrations, which serve to enhance the delivery of oxygen to tissues. In the absence of thyroid hormones, anemia frequently develops and may be normocytic, hypochromic-microcytic, or macrocytic. Anemia is an uncommon finding in hyperthyroidism but when present may be morphologically similar to that observed in hypothyroidism. Pernicious anemia has been strongly associated with hypothyroidism, hyperthyroidism, and thyroiditis. Complete correction of anemia often requires restoration of thyroid function as well as specific hematinic therapy. Continued attention to hematologic status is essential in the management of patients with thyroid diseases.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Fein+HG+AND+Rivlin+RS

Effect of Restoration of Euthyroidism on Peripheral Blood Cells and Erythropoietin in Women with Subclinical Hypothyroidism
Mirjam Christ-Crain1, Christian Meier1, Peter Huber2, Henryk Zulewski1, Jean-Jacques Staub1, Beat Müller1

Abstract
Background: In overt hypothyroidism (OH) anemia is common, while less frequently basophilia has been described. In subclinical hypothyroidism (SCH), however, data on the distribution of peripheral blood cells are lacking. Therefore, we evaluated the effects of L-T4 replacement therapy on peripheral blood elements in female patients with SCH before and after restoration of euthyroidism in a randomized, double-blind and placebo-controlled study. Patients and Methods: Sixty-six women with SCH (TSH 12.9 ± 8.2 mU/L) were randomly assigned to receive L-thyroxine or placebo for 48 weeks. 63 of the 66 women completed the study. Peripheral blood cells were measured at baseline and 48 weeks after L-thyroxine or placebo treatment, respectively. Results: The percentage of lymphocytes decreased (p<0.05), whereas percent of monocytes (p<0.05) and eosinophiles (p<0.05) increased significantly upon restoration of euthyroidism after 48 weeks. Hemoglobin and hematocrit remained unchanged throughout the study period. However, erythropoietin levels increased significantly (p<0.01) during L-T4 treatment. In the placebo group all parameters remained unchanged throughout the study. Conclusions: Overall, we observed subtle alterations of the leuco-lympho-monocytic distribution of the peripheral blood cells upon restoration of euthyroidism in patients with SCH. Hemoglobin and Hematocrit remained unchanged; however, the increasing level of erythropoietin during L-T4 treatment suggests an already stimulated, yet compensated erythropoietic system in mild thyroid failure.

http://www.hormones.gr/120/article/article.html
 
Aug 13, 2009
12,854
2
0
Merckx index said:
Anemia is often present in patients with hypothyroidism, and treatment with thyroxine or related hormones can stimulate reticulocyte synthesis and raise red blood cell levels. But assuming his suspicious values were a high Hb/retic ratio, I’m not sure how his defense is going to argue that thyroxine is the cause of the abnormalities.

There are plenty of odd things on this. Would assume Thyroid medicine would mandate a TUE. Also odd that the guy he hired to spew the thyroid nonsense was last in the door. His first two experts did the normal attack of the testing, transport, etc. It was only AFTER this failed and the panel ruled to sancton him that he brought in his thyroid issues
 
Apr 20, 2012
6,320
0
0
Race Radio said:
If you have Kreuzinger's numbers please share with us so we can compare. I wonder if they compare to Ryder's MASSIVE jump? :rolleyes:

May 14, 2012
Hb: 14.1
Hct: 42.3
Retic: 1.56

May 17, 2012 AM
Hb: 14.1
Hct: 43.4
Retic: 1.34

May 17, 2012 PM
Hb: 14.1
Hct: 43.4
Retic 1.71

May 18, 2012
Hb:14.4
Hct: 42.6
Retic: 1.74
Any rise in HB and HCT during a GT is suspect, even if its a 3% rise. But you know that.
 
Sep 29, 2012
12,197
0
0
Race Radio said:
If you have Kreuzinger's numbers please share with us so we can compare. I wonder if they compare to Ryder's MASSIVE jump? :rolleyes:

May 14, 2012
Hb: 14.1
Hct: 42.3
Retic: 1.56

May 17, 2012 AM
Hb: 14.1
Hct: 43.4
Retic: 1.34

May 17, 2012 PM
Hb: 14.1
Hct: 43.4
Retic 1.71

May 18, 2012
Hb:14.4
Hct: 42.6
Retic: 1.74

Not sure where you got your figures but the dates and therefore the progression are off by a mile. I do not believe you wrote that from memory, but rather would have copy + pasted it. I would be VERY interested to see your source, as it's incredibly dubious.

This is what I have:

zsM3ppv.png
 
Feb 20, 2012
982
228
10,380
Race Radio said:
There are plenty of odd things on this. Would assume Thyroid medicine would mandate a TUE. Also odd that the guy he hired to spew the thyroid nonsense was last in the door. His first two experts did the normal attack of the testing, transport, etc. It was only AFTER this failed and the panel ruled to sancton him that he brought in his thyroid issues

Actually,thyroid problem and treatment with L-thyroxine as an explanation is mentioned already in De Boer's opinion dated 25/8/2013. Only after UCI rejected this explanation,Hampton presented additional supporting opinion.
 
Jul 11, 2013
3,340
0
0
PeterB said:
Actually,thyroid problem and treatment with L-thyroxine as an explanation is mentioned already in De Boer's opinion dated 25/8/2013. Only after UCI rejected this explanation,Hampton presented additional supporting opinion.

I think I recently read somewhere that Kreuziger alegdelly had the Thyroid issues since young, can't remember where, and have no link. Maybe someone else does..?

But if true Something springs to mind with this thyroid problem.

Bertagnolli named Kreuziger in the LA case.
http://www.podiumcafe.com/2012/10/12/3493598/bertagnolli-speaks-in-english

I (Bertagnolli) have suffered from a thyroid problem from 1997, when I was still a boy and what I was an amateur cyclist...............
At the end of 2006 when I had thyroid troubles I thought to go back to Dr Ferrari to resolve the problems that were coming from my thyroid dysfunction. I asked the Liquigas personnel (Amadio, Corsetti) for permission to visit Ferrari to take care of my problems, and no-one opposed my decision
I know that many of my colleagues from Liquigas went to Ferrari because we spoke of it among ourselves, and the team itself was aware: Pellizzotti, Kreuziger, Gasparotto, Chicchi.

So apparently Bertagnolli first and foremost went to Ferrari in 2006 to get help with this thyroid issue.
Around the same time Kreuziger arrived at Liquigas.

Regarding the Dr. Ferrari link Kreuziger said the following back in may 2013:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kreuziger-apparently-facing-no-sanctions-for-ferrari-confession

“I cannot remember the exact dates, but he was my coach for little more than a year, from autumn 2006 to winter 2007,” Kreuziger told sporten.dk. “When I started working with him, I was 20 years old. It was my first year as a professional, and at the time I was convinced that he was one of the best coaches in the world. That's why I contacted him then.

Coaches, not doctors...
Furthermore:

But I would also like to make it clear that there never was doping involved in our relationship. I received only guidance from him. He helped me with workouts and did some tests on me.

So the thing is, why not (in may 2013) mention the thyroid problem as a decisive factor for seeing Dr. Ferrari? Especially since he would obviously had been referred for the same reason from Bartagnelli...
That may have been an even more plausible explanation to the visits...

Does anyone know if he has backed up the Thyroid claims with numbers, dr. reports? Or can't he because those are from Ferrari..
Or maybe it is a made up explanation of course..

I just find the coincidence of the two and the timeline a bit odd (suspicious)...
Maybe someone here has knowledge of this?
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Apr 26, 2010
628
0
9,980
Merckx index said:
...
Anemia is often present in patients with hypothyroidism, and treatment with thyroxine or related hormones can stimulate reticulocyte synthesis and raise red blood cell levels. But assuming his suspicious values were a high Hb/retic ratio, I’m not sure how his defense is going to argue that thyroxine is the cause of the abnormalities.

As written earlier, the report specifically mentiones the problem flagged by biopassport was
1. HGB increase during the 2012 Giro
2. elevated reticulocytes from March to August 2011 and then in 2012 from April to the end of the Giro.
Which according to the ABP panel indicates that blood doping/transfusion is highly likely.

It's strange, because with transfusion one would expect drop in retics, right?
If true, it seems more like EPO usage.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Any rise in HB and HCT during a GT is suspect, even if its a 3% rise. But you know that.
if it weren't suspect, i guess JV wouldn't have felt the need to attribute it to a calibration error.

on the topic of calibration errors, i just read that in an average (1st world) hospital such errors generally don't occur in more than a quarter of all measurements.
Let's take that number as a point of departure for cycling antidoping measurements. Gives us a 25% chance of calibration error for Hesjedal.
But JV also needed the excuse for Wiggins 2009 third week. I'm bad at math, can somebody tell me roughly what the odds are that you suffer calibration errors wrt both of your team's best GT performances?
 
Sep 29, 2012
12,197
0
0
sniper said:
Let's take that number as a point of departure for cycling antidoping measurements.
1. Gives us a 25% chance of calibration error for Hesjedal.
But JV also needed the excuse for
2. Wiggins 2009 third week. I'm bad at math, can somebody tell me roughly what the odds are that you suffer calibration errors wrt both of your team's best GT performances?

Don't forget the 2005 USPS readings where the same phenomenon occurred ;-)

And his claim that everyone tested high pre-Giro 2012.
 
May 19, 2010
1,899
0
0
Race Radio said:
There are plenty of odd things on this. Would assume Thyroid medicine would mandate a TUE. Also odd that the guy he hired to spew the thyroid nonsense was last in the door. His first two experts did the normal attack of the testing, transport, etc. It was only AFTER this failed and the panel ruled to sancton him that he brought in his thyroid issues

If the medicine didn't contain any substance on the WADA prohibit list there wouldn't be any need for a TUE. He would however have to declare it on the form submitted with the sample, if he had taken any in the last 30 days.

It's very unclear to me what his thyroid problem is, but hypothyroidism is quite hot in athletics. The medicine levothyroxine doesn't require a TUE.

U.S. Track's Unconventional Physician
Dr. Brown treats runners for a disorder not known to afflict them. His patients' medal count: 15 Olympic golds
- The Wall Street Journal
Hypothyroidism, The Wall Street Journal, Jos Hermens, Mo Farah, Galen Rupp and the Olympics - Letsrun.com
 
Apr 30, 2011
47,141
29,772
28,180
sniper said:
if it weren't suspect, i guess JV wouldn't have felt the need to attribute it to a calibration error.

on the topic of calibration errors, i just read that in an average (1st world) hospital such errors generally don't occur in more than a quarter of all measurements.
Let's take that number as a point of departure for cycling antidoping measurements. Gives us a 25% chance of calibration error for Hesjedal.
But JV also needed the excuse for Wiggins 2009 third week. I'm bad at math, can somebody tell me roughly what the odds are that you suffer calibration errors wrt both of your team's best GT performances?

If there's a 25% chance of an error for each tests and a rider is tested four times during a GT, then there's a 68% chance that at least one error will have happened out of those four tests. For that to happen in two GTs out of two there's a 47% chance.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Netserk said:
If there's a 25% chance of an error for each tests and a rider is tested four times during a GT, then there's a 68% chance that at least one error will have happened out of those four tests. For that to happen in two GTs out of two there's a 47% chance.
i guess your right, cheers netserk.
JV should be lobbying for better calibration of antidoping measurement equipments.
 
Aug 13, 2009
12,854
2
0
Dear Wiggo said:
Not sure where you got your figures but the dates and therefore the progression are off by a mile. I do not believe you wrote that from memory, but rather would have copy + pasted it. I would be VERY interested to see your source, as it's incredibly dubious.


Got it from here. Hardly off by a mile.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18531

The original source is here.
http://cavalierfc.tumblr.com/post/31376789644/captaintbag-expert-analysis-ryder-hesjedal

The dates and numbers line up so perhaps your source is wrong?

Regardless, the questions with Ryders blood focus on how stable it was. There was no dramatic increase.......but that is for another thread. Feel free to discuss it here http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18531

While it is fun to equate Horner, Ryder, or Wiggins with Kreuziger it is hard to do this without Kreuziger numbers. I find it very odd that these figures, that were the core of the case, were not included in the reasoned decision.
 
Apr 26, 2010
628
0
9,980
Race Radio said:
...I find it very odd that these figures, that were the core of the case, were not included in the reasoned decision.

Maybe the Czech Olympic Committee actually doesn't want the worlwide scientific community scream "It's clearly doping, what were you thinking?" when they chose to acquit RK on the basis of... well, whatever.
 
Aug 13, 2009
12,854
2
0
TomasC said:
Maybe the Czech Olympic Committee actually doesn't want the worlwide scientific community scream "It's clearly doping, what were you thinking?" when they chose to acquit RK on the basis of... well, whatever.

Exactly.

It would be interesting to see the numbers as it would give us an idea of what kind of variance might trigger the ABP process. The Thyroid excuse would also be dissected as experts can either confirm it or explain how that amount of variance is not possible.

The reasoned decision is vague in many of the key aspects. Hard to think that was not intentional
 
Jul 21, 2012
9,860
3
0
Netserk said:
If there's a 25% chance of an error for each tests and a rider is tested four times during a GT, then there's a 68% chance that at least one error will have happened out of those four tests. For that to happen in two GTs out of two there's a 47% chance.

im no expert or anything but 25% chance of error sounds ridiculous.

in that case wouldnt the tests be pretty much worthless as everyone and their grandmother could blame everything on that?
 
Feb 10, 2010
10,645
20
22,510
neineinei said:
If the medicine didn't contain any substance on the WADA prohibit list there wouldn't be any need for a TUE. He would however have to declare it on the form submitted with the sample, if he had taken any in the last 30 days.

It's very unclear to me what his thyroid problem is, but hypothyroidism is quite hot in athletics. The medicine levothyroxine doesn't require a TUE.

U.S. Track's Unconventional Physician
Dr. Brown treats runners for a disorder not known to afflict them. His patients' medal count: 15 Olympic golds
- The Wall Street Journal
Hypothyroidism, The Wall Street Journal, Jos Hermens, Mo Farah, Galen Rupp and the Olympics - Letsrun.com

Both links are great reading. Let's argue for a minute hypothyroidism is real for RK and uses levothyroxine. (not a banned substance)

-Weight loss
-Apparently HGH use sets off hypothyroidism. And we know HGH is a great recovery therapy. We know HGH use is widespread.
-Apparently a good recovery therapy on its own.
-Don Caitlin describes it as a limited stimulant.

Catabolic in nature and, a first for me, bodybuilding sites consistently discourage use in any form other than as specifically prescribed for the specific condition.
 
Feb 10, 2010
10,645
20
22,510
the sceptic said:
im no expert or anything but 25% chance of error sounds ridiculous.

I read it as he just pulled a number out of the air. You would have to dig through the research on the test to see what the positive/negative/false-positive/false-negative results are for the test, then find WADA's threshold value. Remember that WADA's threshold value minimizes the possibility of a false positive.

Given most of what WADA does is documented and available to all, it can be done.
 
Apr 22, 2012
3,570
0
0
TomasC said:
Which according to the ABP panel indicates that blood doping/transfusion is highly likely.

It's strange, because with transfusion one would expect drop in retics, right?
If true, it seems more like EPO usage.

It isn't strange, EPO counts among blood doping.