Wonderlance was special. This guy has nothing on him.
So you were blocked and utvilsomt wasn't?Felice Gimondi said:For my norwegian friends on VGD-sykkel whom I know read frequently on the Clinic:
This is "WillyVoet"
I have been blocked due to recent discussion on VGD. Feel free to communicate this to others on the forum and, if you whish, hold MOD responsible for unfair and unjust doings. I will however not return.
Wish you tailwinds and sunshine!
Not the belabor the point, but I think it's one thing to point out BS nationalistic rationalizations and another to call someone a troll for making them. To me it's the difference between productive discussion and ostracizing people from the site.hrotha said:Plenty of people here don't automatically label everyone who performs as a doper. Most of us, however, are particularly opposed to BS nationalistic rationalizations.
No questions... just common sense:ToreBear said:Any more questions you want me to answer dearest Foxy?
Nothing that Bjorn mentioned is anything revolutionary, in Norway or anywhere else.alspacka said:Also, I get that the "if only we'd thought of training" comments are funny, but I would suggest that methods in all sports are improving constantly. The idea that something novel might have emerged from Norway is not so outlandish. That the secret is super compensation not so much.
i don't know do you?Gung Ho Gun said:
this is an excellent post !Felice Gimondi said:The supreme ethics argument has been used in these and similar discussions in Norway for decades, not only in sports but also business related where finance scandals and fraudulent behaviour seen in southern parts of Europe "could never have happened in Norway" kind of attitude. This is a fading perception on the economic arena (even though we're on the better part of transparency rankings), but the idea still has a strong standing in the public when its about sports and especially winter endurance sports.
There have been several attempts to dig into what really happened in XC-skiing, Speed skating and biathlon in the 90', but so far there has been little success. Investigations have mostly been done by journalists, most notably norwegian and sweedish journalists, but they haven't been met with cooperation, transparency and full disclosure from sports associations, key representatives and former star atheletes as one would expect given this alleged culture in scandinavian countries.
Representatives from antidoping athorities in Norway have also red-flagged to norwegian sports association several blood-samples taken on norwegian atheletes from some years back where science can proove there is doping involved but where nescessary legislation to take further legal action is not in place. This representative quit his job, wrote a book where he basically calls the antidoping regime noneffective and that anyone can beat the system. Who these atheletes are is of course not disclosed. These things are debatted in norwegian media, but there is not much pressure on it.
A few years back there were sweedish journalists digging into unusual HB levels on XC-skiers in the 90'. They where promised full disclosure on all measured values from the norwegian ski federation but where only given nubers taken off-season, as if that would be sufficient to prove the atheletes where clean. The reason given behind this was that the norwegian ski federation did not have any samples of the HB-values on season as FIS was taking their samples so we didn't need to. What these values are and where they are is not given to the public. FIS has also in this particular aera "privatised" testing operations, labs and so on and has got full control of the whole chain, very few question the obvious issue of independancy. Journalists who ask unpleasant questions do not receive access to the atheletes, interviews etc. A whole TV-show with our greatest sports stars was cancelled due to a critical piece on TV2 (the program and what they found was nonsense, but nevertheless it illustrates the general attitude).
This winter the norwegian XC-skiers have dominated to such extent that many question what will happen in the future if other nations don't catch up. Especially the russians and finnish are not performing according to standards 10-15 years ago, and a former female well known athelete said on TV that one of the reasons for this is that these countries don't know how to train without doping, whereas norwegians have developed scientific and superior competencies on endurance training without doping and so on....so naturally we would prevail when the antidoping measures take effect
There are many many other cases with strange references to why things would not happen here etc, many doubt what was going on in the 90' but like footballers are gods in Spain, it seems as if XC-skiers are gods and untouchable in Norway.
So yes, in my opinion there was really something strange going on on several levels in Norway but we don't know what, where and how.
don't know b/c the norwegians don't WANT to knowthere was really something strange going on on several levels in Norway but we don't know what, where and how.
Exactly. The main reason why riders dope out of competition is to allow them to train harder and recover more quickly between training sessions. It's disingenuous to try to separate training more from doping.Gung Ho Gun said:
To be fair, if someone truly believed that they found a method of preparation that gives an advantage over what other people do, they wouldn't share it.Lyon said:Nothing that Bjorn mentioned is anything revolutionary, in Norway or anywhere else.alspacka said:Also, I get that the "if only we'd thought of training" comments are funny, but I would suggest that methods in all sports are improving constantly. The idea that something novel might have emerged from Norway is not so outlandish. That the secret is super compensation not so much.
In my experience there is not so much an improvement as there are fads and trends, certainly nothing novel. It seems to me that the ceiling when it comes to knowledge about training was reached a few decades ago, which, of course, is why the Sky-camp is spouting their nonsense about "marginal gains". It is a half-truth, since little details and day to day management is all there is left to fight about.
The rest is drugs and opportunism.
Lots of people within Norwegian sport have been wondering the same thing. It seems the XC-skiing is something of a closed group though, which is never good, and they have so far refused to share their knowledge.python said: