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Re:
Btw, I don`t think Martin Fourcade is doped either, and he has been skiing remarkebly fast the last few years..
As is your right, hardly supported by your above mentioned arguments thoughrobertmooreheadlane said:
Btw, I don`t think Martin Fourcade is doped either, and he has been skiing remarkebly fast the last few years..
Re: Re:
The trouble here Bjorn, is that we've all heard these arguments dozens of times before. From Festina, to Postal to Sky and so many others who "worked harder" and "trained more". It's a standard explanation for what is typically unexplainable, and it exists so reporters can ask the questions and fans who "want to believe" can have their consciences assuaged.
The reality is that every time, the vast bulk of evidence or proof shows that this is a lie, every time.
They are professional cyclists. It's one of the most demanding jobs in the world. They all work hard and we have no way of knowing who trains the hardest, or smartest or the best.
You should consider being a bit more skeptical of these kinds of well-worn stories.
bjorn said:i don't know do you?Gung Ho Gun said:
but i know that it is a huge difference between Martin Jonsby sundby the best skier (on top in WC) from Norway and the best from Sweden. he trains over 200 hour more every year.
Why should it not be the same in cycling.
nothing is black or white. so i hope this forum will turn in to something more positive .
We can talk about the low moral of the cyclist in the field. but what of our moral. we can hang a man up on the wall without any evidence at all.
that is the reason why i had to log in to this forum and speak out.
When doping is starting to get better we must at leat try t set a lowest standard for our writhing.
( i ma not speaking on my English who is as bad as it can be )
The trouble here Bjorn, is that we've all heard these arguments dozens of times before. From Festina, to Postal to Sky and so many others who "worked harder" and "trained more". It's a standard explanation for what is typically unexplainable, and it exists so reporters can ask the questions and fans who "want to believe" can have their consciences assuaged.
The reality is that every time, the vast bulk of evidence or proof shows that this is a lie, every time.
They are professional cyclists. It's one of the most demanding jobs in the world. They all work hard and we have no way of knowing who trains the hardest, or smartest or the best.
You should consider being a bit more skeptical of these kinds of well-worn stories.
Pulp
I am not sure what point you are trying to make
Ole Bjorndal was the most succesful biathlete of numerous generations and was winning world cup races into his forties and he is norwegian, that points to doping, the fact he lived and trained in italy doesn't help that argument at all. He is norwegian and the point was about the fact norwegians don't dope due to their nationality, not where they live.
Also not sure what your point about martin fourcade is unless you are trying to point the finger and shift away from the norway debate to france as he is one of a few who can compete with the russians who many think are doped to the eyeballs.
The fact is that XC skiing was one of the first sports to use EPO and has had a long history of it and that they can quite easily use the same techniques as cyclists to get around the tests is basic history.
The fact that the Norwegian and swedish ski federations are the two most vociferous federations against journalists who look into this, not vociferous against dopers but for gods sake dont be a journalist and try to uncover anything.
They also use the same old stories used in cycling about contamination of food, samples, supplements etc etc etc.
They were the first and the times for the races continue to fall and the same nations are at the top of the sports
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I am not sure what point you are trying to make
Ole Bjorndal was the most succesful biathlete of numerous generations and was winning world cup races into his forties and he is norwegian, that points to doping, the fact he lived and trained in italy doesn't help that argument at all. He is norwegian and the point was about the fact norwegians don't dope due to their nationality, not where they live.
Also not sure what your point about martin fourcade is unless you are trying to point the finger and shift away from the norway debate to france as he is one of a few who can compete with the russians who many think are doped to the eyeballs.
The fact is that XC skiing was one of the first sports to use EPO and has had a long history of it and that they can quite easily use the same techniques as cyclists to get around the tests is basic history.
The fact that the Norwegian and swedish ski federations are the two most vociferous federations against journalists who look into this, not vociferous against dopers but for gods sake dont be a journalist and try to uncover anything.
They also use the same old stories used in cycling about contamination of food, samples, supplements etc etc etc.
They were the first and the times for the races continue to fall and the same nations are at the top of the sports
The more things change the more they stay the same.
SeriousSam said:
It´s easy to explain:
While "1%-country A" (let´s assume it´s Germany) offers young athlets other options in (business-)life, the "48%-country B" (let´s assume it´s Kenya) leaves the young athlets two options: Make it in sports, or fail. So while in the wider talent-range of athlets the doper-percentage is maybe less in Germany, at the highest level it´s the same: Once the German athlete made the same decision (to make it big in sports) as the poor Kenyan runner, he has to do the same work-place doping to keep up. Simple as that. No ethics advantage.
Better training in Norway: Well, we heard that BS before. Case closed.
Least positives in Norway: The answers lay all in this thread... They dope as much as everybody else at the highest level.
Re:
My point.. He stopped winning a few years ago, not in his 40s, and if you bothered to read the last sentence, i believe Fourcade is clean... In fact, one of the main reasons I think France is so competitive the last few years is that they benifit from the field being cleaner than in a few decades. And if you follow biathlon you should have noticed that Russia is struggling. The reason is probably that they are getting clean.
And here is another significant thing about biathlon: The shooting is quite important.. Think you need to go back quite a few years to find Bjørndalen being the fastest skier.. When he HAS nicked a rare win it`s been through superior shooting the last seasons.
And a third significant thing when it comes to biathlon & XC skiing: The use ski!!!
Again, I`m pretty sure no one comes close to Norway in the resouces they put into preparation of skis.. And it does separate and very much influence the outcome, and on average, you`ll find that norwegians have competitive skies, on some occasions to the point that the other nations hve competed at a clear disadvantage. (Obviously they have *** it up and shot themselves in the foot at other occasions as well)
So no, I don`t agree it points to doping.
Another thing, IBU stores samples and have started sentencing from old samples.. No norwegians has been busted from that either.. (A german and some russians though)
The Italy part was just to illustrate that Bjørndalen is his own man (Still clean though).
Infact, I believe XC-skiing has become pretty much clean as well.. The results certainly suggests so. The countries that did struggle with organized doping was russia, finland, italy and austria. They seem to have stopped.
The fact that swedish and norwegian ski officials didnt want to cooperate much with a very speculative documentary is hardly proof of anything, albeit with the glasses some people in this forum have, i`m sure its proof of doping.
But I`m also sure there could surface a story at one point where the odd norwegian or swede get knicked for doping. A norwegian top skier could make $500k-1,5m a year and become a hero, so I`m sure it could happen. And I also know Kjærgård & Pedersen (norwegian cyclists) where doped. I`m not claiming moral superiority, I`m not claiming genetics or revolutionary training. But for ski it`s simple: By far the largest talent pool combined with by far the largest resources and systematisation and transfering of knowledge through decades. That tends to give you an edge.. The russians might be close in talent pool and a distant 2nd when it comes to resources. However they have always relied on doping, so when trying to change (as Im sure they`re doing) to a clean approach, it takes time. Give them a few years, maybe a decade, maybe 2 even, and they`ll get there im sure.
robertmooreheadlane said:
My point.. He stopped winning a few years ago, not in his 40s, and if you bothered to read the last sentence, i believe Fourcade is clean... In fact, one of the main reasons I think France is so competitive the last few years is that they benifit from the field being cleaner than in a few decades. And if you follow biathlon you should have noticed that Russia is struggling. The reason is probably that they are getting clean.
And here is another significant thing about biathlon: The shooting is quite important.. Think you need to go back quite a few years to find Bjørndalen being the fastest skier.. When he HAS nicked a rare win it`s been through superior shooting the last seasons.
And a third significant thing when it comes to biathlon & XC skiing: The use ski!!!
Again, I`m pretty sure no one comes close to Norway in the resouces they put into preparation of skis.. And it does separate and very much influence the outcome, and on average, you`ll find that norwegians have competitive skies, on some occasions to the point that the other nations hve competed at a clear disadvantage. (Obviously they have *** it up and shot themselves in the foot at other occasions as well)
So no, I don`t agree it points to doping.
Another thing, IBU stores samples and have started sentencing from old samples.. No norwegians has been busted from that either.. (A german and some russians though)
The Italy part was just to illustrate that Bjørndalen is his own man (Still clean though).
Infact, I believe XC-skiing has become pretty much clean as well.. The results certainly suggests so. The countries that did struggle with organized doping was russia, finland, italy and austria. They seem to have stopped.
The fact that swedish and norwegian ski officials didnt want to cooperate much with a very speculative documentary is hardly proof of anything, albeit with the glasses some people in this forum have, i`m sure its proof of doping.
But I`m also sure there could surface a story at one point where the odd norwegian or swede get knicked for doping. A norwegian top skier could make $500k-1,5m a year and become a hero, so I`m sure it could happen. And I also know Kjærgård & Pedersen (norwegian cyclists) where doped. I`m not claiming moral superiority, I`m not claiming genetics or revolutionary training. But for ski it`s simple: By far the largest talent pool combined with by far the largest resources and systematisation and transfering of knowledge through decades. That tends to give you an edge.. The russians might be close in talent pool and a distant 2nd when it comes to resources. However they have always relied on doping, so when trying to change (as Im sure they`re doing) to a clean approach, it takes time. Give them a few years, maybe a decade, maybe 2 even, and they`ll get there im sure.
Well, there is this one insident supposedly pretty well known amongst XC-skiiers and people connected to those environments, it is known not only because of grey-area behavior, but because the somewhat infected issue it created between prominent atheletes. I do not know if anyone who was there would be willing to confirm this, but this is usually how the story is told:
At altitude in Salt Lake where OEB would compete both in XC and biathlon, at the time people had huge beleif in portable oxygen mask/tanks for swift recovery after and between competitions. This was clearly a grey-area so all the nations agreed not to use such equipments. When one of the other norwegian biathlon atheletes entered a norwegian team tent, there OEB was with a oxygen mask. This other athelete was a candidate for winning medals also and he had huge ambisions so he created a huge argument with the norwegian management...who knew very well and had even facilitated OEB's activities.
At altitude in Salt Lake where OEB would compete both in XC and biathlon, at the time people had huge beleif in portable oxygen mask/tanks for swift recovery after and between competitions. This was clearly a grey-area so all the nations agreed not to use such equipments. When one of the other norwegian biathlon atheletes entered a norwegian team tent, there OEB was with a oxygen mask. This other athelete was a candidate for winning medals also and he had huge ambisions so he created a huge argument with the norwegian management...who knew very well and had even facilitated OEB's activities.
Re:
just a slight bit daft too. one of the inalienable attractions of norske folkthe sceptic said:
Re:
The grey-area behavior is well known. In a tv-feature on Ulvang and Dæhlie, I think it was made between Albertville and Lillehammer, Ulvang himself said something like this: "If people knew all the grey area stuff we do, they might not like it."
Also, when Dæhlie was trying to come back after his injury and the debate over the use of "høydehus" was ongoing he said something to the effect that it is fine to insist on a ban on this type of thing but don't expect anymore victories if you do.
Of course, this gray area stuff might be just a deflection, a little bit like the way some Sky fans are hoping that Froome et al. is only using something not yet banned.
Felice Gimondi said:
The grey-area behavior is well known. In a tv-feature on Ulvang and Dæhlie, I think it was made between Albertville and Lillehammer, Ulvang himself said something like this: "If people knew all the grey area stuff we do, they might not like it."
Also, when Dæhlie was trying to come back after his injury and the debate over the use of "høydehus" was ongoing he said something to the effect that it is fine to insist on a ban on this type of thing but don't expect anymore victories if you do.
Of course, this gray area stuff might be just a deflection, a little bit like the way some Sky fans are hoping that Froome et al. is only using something not yet banned.
Interview with Stein Ørn in todays VG (in Norwegian):
http://www.vg.no/sport/sykkel/sykkel/kr ... /23431930/
http://www.vg.no/sport/sykkel/sykkel/kr ... /23431930/
Re:
Kudos to the reporter for presenting Rasmussen's counterview
Stein Orn: "doping doesn't work". great, then that's settled and we can move on.olhell said:
Kudos to the reporter for presenting Rasmussen's counterview
Re:
Although I kinda understand where he is coming from, that interview will not do him any favours.
olhell said:
Although I kinda understand where he is coming from, that interview will not do him any favours.
Re: Re:
God d*mn it. I take caffeine, and I still suck. semifat and produce mediocre results. I feel those effects, alright
God d*mn it. I take caffeine, and I still suck. semifat and produce mediocre results. I feel those effects, alright
It's interesting seeing my prejudice when a Katusha rider wins a race - I see the celebration just past the finish line and just cringe. Instantly unbelievable. Moreso probably than any other team. The rider is irrelevant.
Re: Re:
it's pretty clear he's a doping coach, even more so with that interview.
If he were a clean coach, why for f-sake did he allow his two brightest talents to sign for Katusha?
The urgent question is: is Stein Eagle Orn doping minors?
where's he coming from?Trond Vidar said:
it's pretty clear he's a doping coach, even more so with that interview.
If he were a clean coach, why for f-sake did he allow his two brightest talents to sign for Katusha?
The urgent question is: is Stein Eagle Orn doping minors?
Re: Re:
Sorry. By where here is coming from, I mean "what he is on about". Just poor english on my side.
There are some nuances in this article, although it is from the most tabloid newspaper in Norway.
- He does say that doping takes you to a new level
- He does say that large amounts of EPO gives a tremendous advantage (the only thing he really fears the competition is using
- He says that other doping products such as kortisone and testosterone he is not afraid of. Those can be matched by structured training.
It's with these things I mean I understand what he is on about/understand where he is coming from.
However, that interview is still all over the place. The Placebo argument is related to HGH, for cyclists. But he should know that whenever you say doping/placebo in front of a journalist - as a cardiologist, then you are doomed
sniper said:
Sorry. By where here is coming from, I mean "what he is on about". Just poor english on my side.
There are some nuances in this article, although it is from the most tabloid newspaper in Norway.
- He does say that doping takes you to a new level
- He does say that large amounts of EPO gives a tremendous advantage (the only thing he really fears the competition is using
- He says that other doping products such as kortisone and testosterone he is not afraid of. Those can be matched by structured training.
It's with these things I mean I understand what he is on about/understand where he is coming from.
However, that interview is still all over the place. The Placebo argument is related to HGH, for cyclists. But he should know that whenever you say doping/placebo in front of a journalist - as a cardiologist, then you are doomed
He dosen't say that doping dosen't work at all, his point is that (with regards to steroids) that:
"through long term systematic - and correct- training, you can develop a natural hormone response that is far more effective"
He thinks that the extra muscles in itself is not useful if the tendons, capillaries and oxygen consumption isn't developed along side them, then you just have extra bulk to carry around.
"through long term systematic - and correct- training, you can develop a natural hormone response that is far more effective"
He thinks that the extra muscles in itself is not useful if the tendons, capillaries and oxygen consumption isn't developed along side them, then you just have extra bulk to carry around.
Re: Re:
My question was cynical, what I meant to say is I don't see "where he's coming from".
He's denying the benefit of HGH for cyclists, and pretending not to know about (the benefits of) microdosing EPO. Guess he didn't read the USADA files on Lance and Leinders...
Rasmussen's reply is spot on:
i understand the meaning of "coming from", not bad english at all.Trond Vidar said:sniper said:
Sorry. By where here is coming from, I mean "what he is on about". Just poor english on my side.
There are some nuances in this article, although it is from the most tabloid newspaper in Norway.
- He does say that doping takes you to a new level
- He does say that large amounts of EPO gives a tremendous advantage (the only thing he really fears the competition is using
- He says that other doping products such as kortisone and testosterone he is not afraid of. Those can be matched by structured training.
It's with these things I mean I understand what he is on about/understand where he is coming from.
However, that interview is still all over the place. The Placebo argument is related to HGH, for cyclists. But he should know that whenever you say doping/placebo in front of a journalist - as a cardiologist, then you are doomed
My question was cynical, what I meant to say is I don't see "where he's coming from".
He's denying the benefit of HGH for cyclists, and pretending not to know about (the benefits of) microdosing EPO. Guess he didn't read the USADA files on Lance and Leinders...
Rasmussen's reply is spot on:
Re:
And he's pretending not to know about microdosing, even though everybody who hasn't been living in a cave knows that microdosing was already the norm in the Lance era.
not literally no, but he's saying the effects are so minimal that it can be compensated for by hard training. It's the Sky/Garmin message all over again.kottila said:
And he's pretending not to know about microdosing, even though everybody who hasn't been living in a cave knows that microdosing was already the norm in the Lance era.
wow, cool, and what if you do and-and, rather than either-or? #allovertheplace
now isn't that exactly where the benefit of microdosing EPO comes around the corner...
Sorry but that's idiotic. Testosterone / steroids shorten recovery times. There is no structured training you can do that matches the recovery availed from using those drugs. Any structured training done by one rider is going to be doable by the steroid user, except they can train harder for longer.
And pedantically, those drugs do not "give you extra muscles" - that's a fixed quantity, according to the IGF R3 article I was reading. They increase in size thanks to steroids, but only given the right training. Otherwise you're just recovering quicker than anyone naturally.
And pedantically, those drugs do not "give you extra muscles" - that's a fixed quantity, according to the IGF R3 article I was reading. They increase in size thanks to steroids, but only given the right training. Otherwise you're just recovering quicker than anyone naturally.
Given that he specifies high dosage EPO in the article, it's fair to say that he's heard of microdosing.
Just because he might be wrong about a subject dosen't necessarily mean he's doping minors.
Just because he might be wrong about a subject dosen't necessarily mean he's doping minors.
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