Kwiat Beats the wheelsuckers! Best thing of worlds?

[jaylew]

For Valverde, attacking from further out was the perfect way to screw up. He had the bad luck that Kwiatkowski got away and that he couldn't drop Gerrans

I don't know. I think he's one of the few guys who were there today who could have won in exactly the same way Kwia did. That's assuming that he would have been given as much leeway, which is no guarantee.

 

[observer]

Gerrans did not come to the front at all for the chase. His modus operandi was, 'I'll let the others do the work and clean up in the sprint'. I would be more supportive (still not 100% aboard with the team vote fiasco in 2009) of him if he actually took a pull in a victory. Whether it be his victory in the Tour Down Under or his victories in pretty much any one day race that he has won, he simply sits in the wheel and cleans up in the sprint. That is all well and good if you are a bunch sprinter, but that doesn't fly when you are a so-called 'classic specialist'.

For someone who isn't A-grade, he's doing quite well for himself with the talents he has been given. At the end of the day, everyone seems to agree that he isn't going to be able to attack and solo to the line.

So why would he do it? Why would he risk his career with a tactic that is stacked against him. I'd do exactly the same as him if I was in his situation. He knows his abilities, and plays to them.

Yeah, it isn't exciting, yeah, he is a one trick pony. But it is a pretty good trick considering his results. He still needs to make the distance with energy, follow the decisive moves which takes some skill in itself, and kick at the final.

He's done it enough for everyone to be wary of it, but they aren't. Or they aren't good enough to drop him earlier in the race, or they are just stupid. Either way, its up to the others to stop him, not for him to stop himself.

 

[Panda Claws]

For someone who isn't A-grade, he's doing quite well for himself with the talents he has been given. At the end of the day, everyone seems to agree that he isn't going to be able to attack and solo to the line.

So why would he do it? Why would he risk his career with a tactic that is stacked against him. I'd do exactly the same as him if I was in his situation. He knows his abilities, and plays to them.

Yeah, it isn't exciting, yeah, he is a one trick pony. But it is a pretty good trick considering his results. He still needs to make the distance with energy, follow the decisive moves which takes some skill in itself, and kick at the final.

He's done it enough for everyone to be wary of it, but they aren't. Or they aren't good enough to drop him earlier in the race, or they are just stupid. Either way, its up to the others to stop him, not for him to stop himself.

He is not even expected to attack imo, just to cooperate more with others in situations like this. He has got the best sprint anyway so he can handle doing his share.

 

[Spider1964]

For someone who isn't A-grade, he's doing quite well for himself with the talents he has been given. At the end of the day, everyone seems to agree that he isn't going to be able to attack and solo to the line.

So why would he do it? Why would he risk his career with a tactic that is stacked against him. I'd do exactly the same as him if I was in his situation. He knows his abilities, and plays to them.

Yeah, it isn't exciting, yeah, he is a one trick pony. But it is a pretty good trick considering his results. He still needs to make the distance with energy, follow the decisive moves which takes some skill in itself, and kick at the final.

He's done it enough for everyone to be wary of it, but they aren't. Or they aren't good enough to drop him earlier in the race, or they are just stupid. Either way, its up to the others to stop him, not for him to stop himself.

Agree with this.

He is an A Grader. A wheelsucker he may be, but his palmares suggests that he is an A grade rider. A grade riders convert opportunities to wins, Gerrans does that. B graders don't win LBL... just ask Vino. That's of course forgetting his MSR win, Tour stage wins, national champs wins and discounting all of his TDU wins because they are pre-season training only. Also discounts his large salary!

Just imagine for a moment that you asked a pro rider if they would prefer to be known as an attacking rider who quite often falls short of winning or being called a wheelsucker,have Gerrans palmares and pay packet?

When he won MSR, do you think his team would have been happy if he jumped around Cancellara and went pull for pull with him only to be beaten? No, he played to his strengths.... and won.

Cycling is a beautiful sport that allows for many sizes, types, styles of rider, terrain, the list goes on... this is why this message board will never come to an agreement about which rider is best and which rider they like.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

I'm happy that the only serious contender who had the balls to actually attack before the final hill ended up winning. Great move by Kwiatkowski and what a way to round off a great season.

I don't get the hate for Valverde here. Sure, he could have been more aggressive earlier on, but looking back this was probably the right thing to do. He did manage to get rid of the sprinters and it was only Gerrans who was faster than him in the group. Besides, he and Gilbert were the only ones to actually try something at some point in the race, so why not criticize some of the other big favorites like Cancellara, Sagan, Van Avermaet, Gallopin, Costa, the whole Colombian and Dutch team etc.?

 

[movingtarget]

Gerrans did not come to the front at all for the chase. His modus operandi was, 'I'll let the others do the work and clean up in the sprint'. I would be more supportive (still not 100% aboard with the team vote fiasco in 2009) of him if he actually took a pull in a victory. Whether it be his victory in the Tour Down Under or his victories in pretty much any one day race that he has won, he simply sits in the wheel and cleans up in the sprint. That is all well and good if you are a bunch sprinter, but that doesn't fly when you are a so-called 'classic specialist'.

I also resent the fact that he is strongly fawned over by the Australian cycling press by the likes of Tomalaris, Mackenzie, etc. The guy is not an 'A-Grade' rider in any discipline. The only people in the past decade from Australia who could regard themselves as being at that level in a discipline of road cycling are Evans and maybe Mcewen. He does not really deserve the palmares that he has attained. Good luck to him, but I won't be barracking for him anytime soon.

I think the criticism of Gerrans is way over the top. Rogers is another one who gets flogged whenever he wins something. Gerrans style changed. He used to get in breakaways and win moderate mountain stages but his sprinting got better and better. McEwen won some good races but he never won two monuments like Gerrans. How can you say he does not deserve the wins he has had ? Who does deserve to win ? Often the strongest and the hardest worker gets beat at the finish just ask GVA or Cancellara. No one deserves to win and riders play to their strengths. To say he is not an A Grade rider is ridiculous. If he wins big races of course the Australian press will praise him. The hype about Evans was much worse than for Gerrans especially after it was obvious he would not be winning any more GTs.

 

[Netserk]

I don't know. I think he's one of the few guys who were there today who could have won in exactly the same way Kwia did. That's assuming that he would have been given as much leeway, which is no guarantee.

Kwia wasn't given any leeway at all.

 

[ILovecycling]

Kwia wasn't given any leeway at all.

bit off imho.

 

[The Hegelian]

On Gerrans: He's actually developed into a pretty unique talent. He is right up there with Gilbert and Valverde with a Caubergy kind of punch; but he can also take reasonably select bunch sprints. The reality is that there ain't many who have both of those - that's why he was favourite at the worlds, that's why his palmares is great, that's why he nearly snagged a rainbow jersey. To say he's a wheelsucker ignores the fact that when the elite puncheurs go very late in a race, he's one of them.....and when they wind up for the line, everyone knows who's got the best sprint. That people want him also to have a great time trialling pedigree so he can go from 10k's out is a bit ridiculous. When you've got those two attributes in your legs, of course you should use them to win bike races.

On Kwia: He has all of the above plus that tt pedigree. Pure class. Brilliant attack. Very deserving champ. Is he gonna be the Sagan that never came to be??

 

[memyselfandI]

On Gerrans: He's actually developed into a pretty unique talent. He is right up there with Gilbert and Valverde with a Caubergy kind of punch; but he can also take reasonably select bunch sprints. The reality is that there ain't many who have both of those - that's why he was favourite at the worlds, that's why his palmares is great, that's why he nearly snagged a rainbow jersey. To say he's a wheelsucker ignores the fact that when the elite puncheurs go very late in a race, he's one of them.....and when they wind up for the line, everyone knows who's got the best sprint. That people want him also to have a great time trialling pedigree so he can go from 10k's out is a bit ridiculous. When you've got those two attributes in your legs, of course you should use them to win bike races.

On Kwia: He has all of the above plus that tt pedigree. Pure class. Brilliant attack. Very deserving champ. Is he gonna be the Sagan that never came to be??

+1

Lefevre btw gave bit harsh punch below the belt towards Sagan - or Tinkov on this Sagan plateau question...It remains to be seen.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

+1

Lefevre btw gave bit harsh punch below the belt towards Sagan - or Tinkov on this Sagan plateau question...It remains to be seen.

What did he say?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

On Gerrans: He's actually developed into a pretty unique talent. He is right up there with Gilbert and Valverde with a Caubergy kind of punch; but he can also take reasonably select bunch sprints. The reality is that there ain't many who have both of those - that's why he was favourite at the worlds, that's why his palmares is great, that's why he nearly snagged a rainbow jersey. To say he's a wheelsucker ignores the fact that when the elite puncheurs go very late in a race, he's one of them.....and when they wind up for the line, everyone knows who's got the best sprint. That people want him also to have a great time trialling pedigree so he can go from 10k's out is a bit ridiculous. When you've got those two attributes in your legs, of course you should use them to win bike races.

But we're not arguing whether he should use those talents to use bike races. As Panda Claws states, he's not actually being expected to attack. He's expected to do a turn rather than expect everybody else to pull him to the finish. If he co-operates more, maybe he sprints for the win, not for 2nd.

He's now had quite a lot of success in the sprint-from-the-reduced-bunch form to the point where, when he's in a small group and, as is invariably the case, not contributing, others don't want to work with him, because they know he'll beat them in the sprint. He actually now probably needs a bigger group than he had yesterday, because there will be more people willing to work in that group and the fact that he's never taking a turn won't be so immediately obvious. In a small group like yesterday's, he could easily stand to take a few relays and still have enough in him to win the sprint. He's not a total mug. But then he has the gall to say in the press conference that he wanted to cry because he knew he had the legs to fight for the win, when if he had assisted in the chase he could have done? That puts a bad taste in people's mouths.

We're not expecting him to try to solo from 40km out. Winning the sprint from reduced groups is his thing. But if he wants his group to be fighting for the win, we're expecting him to participate in the chase to justify that group fighting for the win.

Until then, he is one-day racing's answer to Levi Leipheimer. Who also has a very good palmarès, and very few fans among the die-hards.

 

[hrotha]

Haha, Gerrans has defenders? Come on now.

He's often the fastest guy in whatever group he's in, yet he still refuses to pull. Always. Yes, that's up for his rivals to counter, and they can decide not to drag him along. It's a valid tactic.

It's just not one I think cycling fans should root for and encourage.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

What did he say?

He said Sagan is over the top and already stagnating. And that Kwiat still has the best to come

 

[memyselfandI]

yet he still refuses to pull. Always. Yes, that's up for his rivals to counter, and they can decide not to drag him along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEGpv0xn0E8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Libertine Seguros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEGpv0xn0E8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It's widely acknowledged that back in his Crédit Agricole and Cervélo days Gerrans was a moderately interesting stagehunter.

But pulling this out as evidence he takes a pull when the amount of time he's spent on the front during the period of his career where he's actually been a genuine threat to win big races, rather than a secondary contender who gets talked up because of winning Plouay and a couple of GT stages, can be measured in milliseconds, is like pulling out this to prove Stijn Devolder can climb with the best: he's not shown anything remotely like this in the last few years to suggest it's reasonable to expect to see him do it again.

 

[Miburo]

It's widely acknowledged that back in his Crédit Agricole and Cervélo days Gerrans was a moderately interesting stagehunter.

But pulling this out as evidence he takes a pull when the amount of time he's spent on the front during the period of his career where he's actually been a genuine threat to win big races, rather than a secondary contender who gets talked up because of winning Plouay and a couple of GT stages, can be measured in milliseconds, is like pulling out this to prove Stijn Devolder can climb with the best: he's not shown anything remotely like this in the last few years to suggest it's reasonable to expect to see him do it again.

Devolder attacked early before the climb started, only reason why he was up there with the big guys.

 

[hfer07]

I'm sticking to option "all of it", because Kwait won by his own merit- by being aggressive & doing what a champion is suppose to do while denying the wheelsuckers to profit from their abilities to steal races at the last few meters.

couldn't be better

 

[the delgados]

Haha, Gerrans has defenders? Come on now.

He's often the fastest guy in whatever group he's in, yet he still refuses to pull. Always. Yes, that's up for his rivals to counter, and they can decide not to drag him along. It's a valid tactic.

It's just not one I think cycling fans should root for and encourage.

I totally agree. The sorry spectacle we witnessed at the end of the race on Sunday was disappointing, to say the least. Maybe I'm overreacting here, but watching Gilbert tow the likes of Gerrans to the line took a lot of the enjoyment away from the sport in general. I'm getting tired of willing Gerrans et al. to take a goddamn pull and make the sport more enjoyable to watch.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I totally agree. The sorry spectacle we witnessed at the end of the race on Sunday was disappointing, to say the least. Maybe I'm overreacting here, but watching Gilbert tow the likes of Gerrans to the line took a lot of the enjoyment away from the sport in general. I'm getting tired of willing Gerrans et al. to take a goddamn pull and make the sport more enjoyable to watch.

And if Gerrans pulls early, someone else is on his wheel to go around him at the finish line. That's racing. His DS is going to yell at him for losing a spot.

Gilbert set GvA up for the finish. That's teamwork. Maybe it was not executed so well with Gerrans there?

Part of the problem here is the race format. There's no incentive to do anything until the last lap. The weather was not cooperating either.

 

[the delgados]

And if Gerrans pulls early, someone else is on his wheel to go around him at the finish line. That's racing. His DS is going to yell at him for losing a spot.

Gilbert set GvA up for the finish. That's teamwork. Maybe it was not executed so well with Gerrans there?

Part of the problem here is the race format. There's no incentive to do anything until the last lap. The weather was not cooperating either.

Fair enough. But as a viewer watching the final km's unfold before my eyes, I couldn't help but wonder why the small chasing group wouldn't form a paceline for a couple km's to reel the leader in. They almost certainly would have caught him with enough time to align themselves for a sprint.
I dunno--most people here know more about race tactics than me. But as a viewer, I find the spectacle disappointing. I'm glad for Kwiatkowski, but I'm happier that Gerrans didn't win. I would hate to see that scoundrel in the rainbow jersey for an entire year.

 

[Bushman]

And if Gerrans pulls early, someone else is on his wheel to go around him at the finish line. That's racing. His DS is going to yell at him for losing a spot.

Gilbert set GvA up for the finish. That's teamwork. Maybe it was not executed so well with Gerrans there?

Part of the problem here is the race format. There's no incentive to do anything until the last lap. The weather was not cooperating either.

He didn't have to take a pull inside the last k, but he could have worked a lot more before that. I think I saw him take two pulls from 4k out to 2k out and one of them was on the downhill section where you didn't have to pedal. That is not a lot, considering he was the main favourite and probably the fastest on the line.

 

[thehook]

Simple formula. You want the stripes? Grab the finale by the B@115 and win it!!!!! EXAMPLE:Kwitkowski

You suck the wheel. And hope some else gets you the jersey (Gerrans) = You can wait until next year + you will look like an @55 to the fans! Nice Job Simon!

You suck the wheel=you get the silver ;0)

 

[howardyou]

This is an elite sport. It's not about how you win but as long as you win. I've got no problem with the way Gerrans wins - it's his strength and he plays it well. Others need to counter it if they want to beat him.

Why would Gerrans do something like take a pull, if that would only harm his chances of winning? He knows he doesn't have the kick to escape the group so he waits. The thing is when you play this game you are at the mercy of the group you are in. Roll the dice. Sometimes you will win and sometimes Kwiatkowski will make it to the end.

The negativity surrounding Gerrans "style" of winning is hilarious. If cycling is a business, then Gerrans job is winning races. Do that or you get pushed out to MTN Qhubeka where you ride with the other retirees. I bet Simon doesn't care how he wins, just if he wins.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

This is an elite sport. It's not about how you win but as long as you win. I've got no problem with the way Gerrans wins - it's his strength and he plays it well. Others need to counter it if they want to beat him.

Why would Gerrans do something like take a pull, if that would only harm his chances of winning? He knows he doesn't have the kick to escape the group so he waits. The thing is when you play this game you are at the mercy of the group you are in. Roll the dice. Sometimes you will win and sometimes Kwiatkowski will make it to the end.

The negativity surrounding Gerrans "style" of winning is hilarious. If cycling is a business, then Gerrans job is winning races. Do that or you get pushed out to MTN Qhubeka where you ride with the other retirees. I bet Simon doesn't care how he wins, just if he wins.

Of course, his job is not to entertain, it is to win.

But we as fans don't watch to win, we watch to be entertained. So if it is not very entertaining, we fans leave disappointed, and we don't get paid for it, unlike Simon.

Should he give a flying one that fans don't like him? Of course not. But if fans find his style of racing boring and to the detriment of their enjoyment of the spectacle, why can't they voice that?

It just so happens that the group of fans who find him extremely boring and are very glad that his style of unadventurous and unexciting racing did not triumph is the majority. Because the more we see riders rewarded for negative and defensive riding, the more likely we are to see people try to copy it, and the more likely we are to see races like LBL2014 proliferate all over the calendar.

Why, as a cycling fan, would you ever want that?