LA Perjury Count

[BotanyBay]

Lots of talk about Oakley and McIlvain. Oakley can do whatever they want, and suck up their market-share. Stephanie may be in trouble, probably based on poor advice, but that really doesn't matter either.

Allan Lim may be the 'nuts' in this. He's obviously worked with lots of riders, and has had his hand in lots of questionable dealings. Who thinks that he'll tell a good story? I'd love to hear who he's been 'helping'...

My money is on Lim to do the most lying. Even if he goes down, he can always work out of a motorhome in Italy and still earn 6-figures. Getting caught might be the best publicity he's ever gotten. Look what it did for Ferrari! Now he's a big-time consultant to guys like Lance & co.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Am I the only one that finds this absolutely astounding?......What on earth do these people think is going to happen to them?

In this situation, I don't find it astounding that there might have been an attempt to get all the witness stories "straight". Although it's a very high risk strategy, it is potentially very high reward. Pro cycling itself is also a risky activity, so we know there are plenty of risk takers in the mix. Omerta is a behavior that has worked for them in the past too.

A contributing factor is that many of the witnesses will have been involved in doping activities themselves, so have something they want to hide. (Landis' claim that he was passed stuff in front of Kristin Armstrong, and the hospital confessions, suggest it's not just the riders who get drawn in to complicit behaviors that they don't want aired in public. Makes me wonder what else Stephanie knows ...)

Witnesses may have been bought, but not necessarily now and not necessarily with $$. Loyalty can be bought with favors; i.e. the people around Lance might not like him but they might feel that they owe him. I have the vague impression that handing out favors that cost Lance little, but mean lots to the other person, is part of his MO. Examples would be speaking to Oakley on Stephanie's behalf, agreeing to use his influence to help Basso's mum, the whole LAF circus...He later calls these favors in, and people will tend to pay up in proportion to what they gained, not what it cost him. Obviously I'm speculating here, but I wonder if anyone that knows the characters better has seen that pattern at all? I also wonder if he ever did anything "special" for Jawge?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

My money is on Lim to do the most lying. Even if he goes down, he can always work out of a motorhome in Italy and still earn 6-figures. Getting caught might be the best publicity he's ever gotten. Look what it did for Ferrari! Now he's a big-time consultant to guys like Lance & co.

I'm not sold on that... He will go down. And probably not to retire in an RV in Italy. I'm looking at him to be a key player in the case. He knows heaps, but I'm also counting on him crumpling under the pressure.

 

[HoustonHammer]

For everybody that thinks what Lance is/was up to is "no big deal" and not worth prosecuting, I hope that they look at what's going on with the GJ testimony and realize just what a huge deal it is. There's no way you can have this kind of dichotomy going on with a federal investigation if something wasn't VERY, VERY WRONG going on behind the curtain.

What really makes me want to puke is the silence (if not quiet cooperation) on the part of LA's sponsors during this. If Oakley wants to have any credibility at all, they should have said, "we're backing Stephanie, and she'll have a job no matter what the truth is. We request that she step before the GJ and tell it like it is." Instead, it's a stomach-churning blend of thundering silence on the part of corporate HQ, followed up with lies, obfuscation, and marketing hype as usual. Just as if nothing were happening at all...

It looks like Trek did a minor retreat in the fall from LA, but are back to hyping the hell out of him again. Sad....

P.S. Fixed the Lim/Kim typo.

It's not a common PR strategy for companies to make unsolicited public proclamations that they won't violate employment law.

Btw - I noticed that BroDeal edited message #16 to fix his Kim/Lim typo, and then you edited your message #19 to add the phrase "P.S. Fixed the Lim/Kim typo." at exactly the same time, even though #19 doesn't mention Kim/Lim. Are you BroDeal's spokesman?

 

[TERMINATOR]

It's important to point-out that not even their attorneys are allowed inside the Grand Jury chamber. It is total secrecy. So it is entirely possible that these witnesses are intentionally duping Lance. In McIlvain's case, she has a job with Oakley. I'd imagine she wants to keep that job as long as possible. Attorneys might not be able to lie to a judge or jury, but they OFTEN lie to the media.

If I were one of the witnesses, and I'd seen the doping going on, I would have learned a lesson from watching Tammy Thomas, etc. I'd tell the truth and then have my lawyer announce publicly that I testified about never hearing or seeing a thing. I'd let Lance get comfy and off my back. He has a tendency to hold grudges and do devious things to people under the table (without their ever knowing about it). Strategy: Make Lance think Omerta was upheld.

Now, do I think everyone is going to be smart enough not to lie? Nope. I also think we'll see some perjury charges go down. I'm just not willing to guess who lied and who told the truth.

And I do not believe that GJ testimony is secret forever. It all comes out eventually.

The grand jury testimony is not secret. Witnesses can tell anyone whatever they want. It's called the First Amendment.

 

[AnythingButKestrel]

It's not a common PR strategy for companies to make unsolicited public proclamations that they won't violate employment law.

Btw - I noticed that BroDeal edited message #16 to fix his Kim/Lim typo, and then you edited your message #19 to add the phrase "P.S. Fixed the Lim/Kim typo." at exactly the same time, even though #19 doesn't mention Kim/Lim. Are you BroDeal's spokesman?

Yes, I am outed. I am BroDeal's public relations manager. However, the typo correction was a coincidence as I made the same error on the first post. BroDeal will be available next Saturday for autographs at the Mall of America Criterium. Floyd may also be there if he isn't downing beers with me in Paris at the Highlander pub for French Lessons night.

Also, I also did a search and it looks like Stephanie McIlvain is no longer an employee of Oakley, but apparently her husband still is.

 

[HoustonHammer]

Yes, I am outed. I am BroDeal's public relations manager. However, the typo correction was a coincidence as I made the same error on the first post. BroDeal will be available next Saturday for autographs at the Mall of America Criterium. Floyd may also be there if he isn't downing beers with me in Paris at the Highlander pub for French Lessons night.

Also, I also did a search and it looks like Stephanie McIlvain is no longer an employee of Oakley, but apparently her husband still is.

OK. Just trying to keep up my Clinic credentials by being paranoid about everything I read. You are adjudged to have had 'no fault or negligence'. Enjoy your freedom.

I haven't been following the McIlvain story. My point about that was just that I doubt California law would allow them to retaliate against her for telling the truth to a grand jury. I think LA sponsors generally are in a bit of a bind. They're probably worried about a negative outcome in the Novitzky case, but in the meantime, his name recognition is still very high and his reputation in the US remains quite good.

 

[Merckx index]

Also, I also did a search and it looks like Stephanie McIlvain is no longer an employee of Oakley, but apparently her husband still is.

So all this "poor Stephanie, she's just trying to save her job so she can support her kids" stuff is BS? If her husband had a high profile job with the company all along, it doesn't sound as though her own job was that essential. Not essential enough to contradict her phone testimony. Or would Oakley fire her hubby for not shutting up his wife? It sounds like there is no pressure on her at all, except maybe from LA. But if Betsy isn't afraid of LA, why should Stephanie be?

 

[Oldman]

OK. Just trying to keep up my Clinic credentials by being paranoid about everything I read. You are adjudged to have had 'no fault or negligence'. Enjoy your freedom.

I haven't been following the McIlvain story. My point about that was just that I doubt California law would allow them to retaliate against her for telling the truth to a grand jury. I think LA sponsors generally are in a bit of a bind. They're probably worried about a negative outcome in the Novitzky case, but in the meantime, his name recognition is still very high and his reputation in the US remains quite good.

Homey don't play 'dat in our hood. His reputation here and with friends in Norcal is guarded at best. Noone is burning their Oakleys or Treks but the newbies aren't flocking to the bikes like before, according to local retailers.

 

[BroDeal]

Homey don't play 'dat in our hood. His reputation here and with friends in Norcal is guarded at best. Noone is burning their Oakleys or Treks but the newbies aren't flocking to the bikes like before, according to local retailers.

Trek has been overexposed for a while now. No one but a lemming wants the same bike that everyone else has. The same may be true of Armstrong also.

I would not be surprised if non-doping information about Armstrong has affected his rep as much as the the doping allegations have. He is well known to be a world class d!ck. Combine that with Versus turning the TdF into one long Lance-a-thon, and people are sick of the dude.

 

[tubularglue]

OK. Just trying to keep up my Clinic credentials by being paranoid about everything I read.

you reading my mind. scary

 

[Hugh Januss]

So all this "poor Stephanie, she's just trying to save her job so she can support her kids" stuff is BS? If her husband had a high profile job with the company all along, it doesn't sound as though her own job was that essential. Not essential enough to contradict her phone testimony. Or would Oakley fire her hubby for not shutting up his wife? It sounds like there is no pressure on her at all, except maybe from LA. But if Betsy isn't afraid of LA, why should Stephanie be?

Why is one person afraid of the dark and another not?

 

[jimmypop]

The grand jury testimony is not secret. Witnesses can tell anyone whatever they want. It's called the First Amendment.

I probably won't put you on my short list to contact when I need legal advice.

 

[SC1990]

Why do you guys even bother discussing this when you've already decided whose guilty and whose lying? This is why this whole thing will be pointless: the 'lovers' and 'haters' as it seems each side terms eachother as if it is some kind of derogatorive (in a playground maybe) have gone so far in turning their circumstancial evidences into complete facts and ignoring the stuff that won't suit their argument that neither can admit they're wrong due to the immature 'haha we win' attitude that would follow. If the case says Armstrong is innocent, you'll say it was a set up and he was fed information and all that, and if he's guilty it'll be the cleanest more airtight legal case ever done. Some idea of justice.

 

[AnythingButKestrel]

Why do you guys even bother discussing this when you've already decided whose guilty and whose lying? ... Some idea of justice.

The point is the same as the point I've already made, but will make again because you missed it. There's a strong sentiment that the case isn't worth pursuing, but we have at least three people who are *publicly* stating in essence: "Armstrong's machine is so powerful and the consequences of going to war with him are so great that I'd just rather take the felony conviction and do my 6+ months at Club Fed." Even if they are telling the truth to the GJ, that should give everyone an indication of just how rotten an enterprise is LA Incorporated. Maybe lying to the government about doping gets a pass in the UK and Europe. Here, it's almost a guaranteed ticket to prison, with very serious long term consequences.

Do the witnesses fear for their job, their career, their safety? Whatever it is, a lot of people are definitely afraid of *something*.

That type of corrupt power is worth every penny pursuing and bringing to justice. It's also worth talking about.

 

[HoustonHammer]

[/B]

Homey don't play 'dat in our hood. His reputation here and with friends in Norcal is guarded at best. Noone is burning their Oakleys or Treks but the newbies aren't flocking to the bikes like before, according to local retailers.

Are you talking about Norcal in general, or among the cycling population? Here in the Houston area, I suspect it has been many years since he helped sell much among the serious cycling crowd, and racers will go to some lengths to avoid any association.

I think the general public across the US is a different story. They don't know all the background that is common knowledge in the racing community. For the average American, the myth is still pretty healthy. And who is he competing against for sponsorship deals? He did PEDs while it seemed half the NBA and NFL were going around shooting people.

I'm not defending the guy and I personally go far out of my way to avoid all Trek/Bontrager or other LA-associated cycling products (which unfortunately dominate my LBS). But I believe he's still a guy that can sell a lot of crap to Joe Consumer, and companies are going to keep paying him to glare at us from billboards until his situation gets a lot worse.

 

[Oldman]

Are you talking about Norcal in general, or among the cycling population? Here in the Houston area, I suspect it has been many years since he helped sell much among the serious cycling crowd, and racers will go to some lengths to avoid any association.

I think the general public across the US is a different story. They don't know all the background that is common knowledge in the racing community. For the average American, the myth is still pretty healthy. And who is he competing against for sponsorship deals? He did PEDs while it seemed half the NBA and NFL were going around shooting people.

I'm not defending the guy and I personally go far out of my way to avoid all Trek/Bontrager or other LA-associated cycling products (which unfortunately dominate my LBS). But I believe he's still a guy that can sell a lot of crap to Joe Consumer, and companies are going to keep paying him to glare at us from billboards until his situation gets a lot worse.

Just talking about riders interested in regular riding and the sport to a degree. Even some of the Norcal shops I've been in recently downplay the connection and we're talking guys that have autographed Tour jerseys and other stuff on display. The shop monkeys don't want to talk about it because they're Trek dealers (or other goods) and the promotional stuff still surrounds them. The skepticism extends to Santa Rosa's adopted son, Levi.

 

[stephens]

Mcilvan[sic] is the one that has me baffled. She's plainly on record as stating the opposite. How do you get of of jail free on THAT one?

Wait, rambling about hearing "it" on Betsy's answering machine and Lemond's tape recorder is the same as being "on the record"?

 

[Race Radio]

Wait, rambling about hearing "it" on Betsy's answering machine and Lemond's tape recorder is the same as being "on the record"?

And telling multiple people....who also taped it.

 

[AnythingButKestrel]

Wait, rambling about hearing "it" on Betsy's answering machine and Lemond's tape recorder is the same as being "on the record"?

Is "on the tape recorder/MP3" more acceptable to you? I listened to the recordings and they were certainly enough to convince a reasonable person that the "I didn't see/hear anything" argument is false.

Maybe I'm not involved enough in cycling or the legal profession to be desensitized to the non-stop lying. Some privileged insiders get the truth, maybe the Feds get it occasionally, but the rest of us sorry chumps who are actually financing this screwed up industry get nothing but lies.

It's really time for that to change. Every time the industry lies to me, it says "hey Joe-average rider! F-YOU!" It doesn't just affect the entertainment value of the sport, it trickles down to the sales and customer service level as well. Cycling is 99% elite-rider centric and mere mortals are sh*te. We're nothing but wallets to the industry, and far as cycling is concerned we should take McQuaid's advice and shut the f-up and go along for "the ride."

I love riding, but at the same time, I know that every dime I put into the industry is merely going to generate more of the same disrespect.

 

[HoustonHammer]

Is "on the tape recorder/MP3" more acceptable to you? I listened to the recordings and they were certainly enough to convince a reasonable person that the "I didn't see/hear anything" argument is false.

Maybe I'm not involved enough in cycling or the legal profession to be desensitized to the non-stop lying. Some privileged insiders get the truth, maybe the Feds get it occasionally, but the rest of us sorry chumps who are actually financing this screwed up industry get nothing but lies.

It's really time for that to change. Every time the industry lies to me, it says "hey Joe-average rider! F-YOU!" It doesn't just affect the entertainment value of the sport, it trickles down to the sales and customer service level as well. Cycling is 99% elite-rider centric and mere mortals are sh*te. We're nothing but wallets to the industry, and far as cycling is concerned we should take McQuaid's advice and shut the f-up and go along for "the ride."

I love riding, but at the same time, I know that every dime I put into the industry is merely going to generate more of the same disrespect.

I share your frustration, and I definitely agree that pro racing is monumentally disrespectful of fans. I was disgusted at Tw@tters latest commentary about the stats showing how clean the sport has become, saying the "data is difficult to understand, it’s not something tangible and available for the everyday person." No kidding it's not available. UCI won't publish it. And not because it's so uplifting.

On the other hand, I really don't think I'm financing the industry, certainly not the screwed up part of it. I thought the big cash that pays the stars' salaries and bankrolls the doping programs came from entities like USPS, Discovery Channel, Saxo Bank, Computer Sciences Corporation and Caisse d'Epargne - i.e. entities otherwise unrelated to cycling.

 

[AnythingButKestrel]

On the other hand, I really don't think I'm financing the industry, certainly not the screwed up part of it. I thought the big cash that pays the stars' salaries and bankrolls the doping programs came from entities like USPS, Discovery Channel, Saxo Bank, Computer Sciences Corporation and Caisse d'Epargne - i.e. entities otherwise unrelated to cycling.

That's a good point. I don't know enough about financing a team to know where the lion's share of the money is coming from. I think *that* would be a stellar article topic for CN or VN to publish as opposed to the usual, "What color handlebar tape makes Cav sprint faster this week?" drivel.

The WSJ will probably beat both to the punch, though.

 

[buckwheat]

Is "on the tape recorder/MP3" more acceptable to you? I listened to the recordings and they were certainly enough to convince a reasonable person that the "I didn't see/hear anything" argument is false.

Maybe I'm not involved enough in cycling or the legal profession to be desensitized to the non-stop lying. Some privileged insiders get the truth, maybe the Feds get it occasionally, but the rest of us sorry chumps who are actually financing this screwed up industry get nothing but lies.

It's really time for that to change. Every time the industry lies to me, it says "hey Joe-average rider! F-YOU!" It doesn't just affect the entertainment value of the sport, it trickles down to the sales and customer service level as well. Cycling is 99% elite-rider centric and mere mortals are sh*te. We're nothing but wallets to the industry, and far as cycling is concerned we should take McQuaid's advice and shut the f-up and go along for "the ride."

I love riding, but at the same time, I know that every dime I put into the industry is merely going to generate more of the same disrespect.

I appreciate the sentiment.

 

[HoustonHammer]

That's a good point. I don't know enough about financing a team to know where the lion's share of the money is coming from. I think *that* would be a stellar article topic for CN or VN to publish as opposed to the usual, "What color handlebar tape makes Cav sprint faster this week?" drivel.

The WSJ will probably beat both to the punch, though.

That makes two of us then - I'm just guessing. I figure the frame maker probably has to put up a pretty good chunk in term of their expenses supporting the technical side, and then maybe the other kit suppliers just throw their gear in for free. Then the headline sponsor puts up the real money.

But that's nothing more than a guess. Maybe there are others here who know something about how the budget of a pro-tour team works.

 

[yourwelcome]

There is a saying in the marketing field: "Be honest or your brand will suffer"

Most PR firms & marketing consultants tend towards "Be honest and your brand will suffer".