Lance Armstrong popularity check

[aphronesis]

Maybe, but I can't see Zulle as the kind of ruthless at dope at all costs patron. Dirty - without a doubt. Maybe Saiz would have led the peloton into a new dark age instead.

But we'll never know, just like we'll never know what a Romney, Gore or Kerry presidency would have looked.

Needless to say, the environment that was created within cycling did contribute to the deaths of a number of riders and Armstrong was instrumental in creating that environment and for that he has blood on his hands.

Saying that cocaine killed Pantani is a bit like saying that it wasn't EPO that killed the other riders it was heart attacks. It is a bit of a sophist argument.

Don't want to get into this. Armstrong is dirt in his treatment of people;this much is obvious. Those wielding the shopworn "sociopath" argument might reflect on the "socio" in their paths. (That won't happen of course.)

That said, I still have a great distaste for a molar focus on him as a causal force or agent for that decade of cycling.

Pantani and the world killed Pantani; regardless of discrete circumstances. Maybe it's fluke physiology, maybe psychological, maybe any number of things. I've seen friends go in similar ways.

Who are you going to blame for Belushi's death?

 

[ebandit]

poor george

Pathetic. I thought this was a serious debate?

Cycling needs to start getting objective.

seriously? your dislike of big george appears less than objective

lance cheated to those 7 tour wins and deserved to lose them all

i read an ioc member announce the obvious 'lance has no credibility'

ouch! poor lance..............that's gotta hurt!

 

[MarkvW]

Pantani died of a broken heart.

He never would have started taking coke if it wasn't for his PED use.

He was a fragile guy. His doping ban crushed him.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I found this video with Emma O'Reilly interesting

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...-she-worked-as-drug-runner-for-US-Postal.html

Where she is talking about how the doping really changed people and how Armstrong was always the 'alpha male'.

You can argue that Pantani never stood a chance being a psychologically frail as he was, but the toxicity of the peloton after 1999 has to in part be laid at Armstrong's door.

I think the other thing is this - Pantani got popped in 1999 when leading the Giro and got kicked out, Armstrong got popped in 1999 was protected and allowed to win and take the glory, money etc.

The treatment of Pantani vs the treatment of Armstrong by the authorities is another reason I feel no sympathy for Armstrong.

 

[thehog]

I found this video with Emma O'Reilly interesting

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...-she-worked-as-drug-runner-for-US-Postal.html

Where she is talking about how the doping really changed people and how Armstrong was always the 'alpha male'.

You can argue that Pantani never stood a chance being a psychologically frail as he was, but the toxicity of the peloton after 1999 has to in part be laid at Armstrong's door.

I think the other thing is this - Pantani got popped in 1999 when leading the Giro and got kicked out, Armstrong got popped in 1999 was protected and allowed to win and take the glory, money etc.

The treatment of Pantani vs the treatment of Armstrong by the authorities is another reason I feel no sympathy for Armstrong.

The worst thing that doping does to people is they forget their natural level. They don't know what "normal" is anymore. A lot of them run scared and are frightened to know what their 'true" level is. Depression ensues.

Italians can't help themselves in respects to their superstars. They always want to say they're a "campione" then use the word "pero" - which basically translates to "but or yet". He is a champion "but" - a great husband "but" - forever conflicted our Italians. A great Prime Minister - yet.

Never marry an Italian.

 

[frenchfry]

seriously? your dislike of big george appears less than objective

lance cheated to those 7 tour wins and deserved to lose them all

i read an ioc member announce the obvious 'lance has no credibility'

ouch! poor lance..............that's gotta hurt!

Indeed, those "I like our credibility" days seem so far away.

Not much from Lancey-poo these days, is he keeping a low profile hoping this will blow over? If so, that strategy doesn't appear to be working as the negative reports just keep coming.

 

[MarkvW]

I don't disagree with you about Lance. But the peloton was not a victim of Lance--it was his willing accomplice.

And when the next Lance Armstrong comes along, the peloton will be the willing accomplice of that dope cheat as well.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I don't disagree with you about Lance. But the peloton was not a victim of Lance--it was his willing accomplice.

And when the next Lance Armstrong comes along, the peloton will be the willing accomplice of that dope cheat as well.

Completely agree with you.

 

[86TDFWinner]

I don't disagree with you about Lance. But the peloton was not a victim of Lance--it was his willing accomplice.

And when the next Lance Armstrong comes along, the peloton will be the willing accomplice of that dope cheat as well.

This. I too agree with you

 

[thehog]

And when the next Lance Armstrong comes along, the peloton will be the willing accomplice of that dope cheat as well.

And he may have already come along in the form of cielo.

 

[thegripo]

I don't disagree with you about Lance. But the peloton was not a victim of Lance--it was his willing accomplice.

And when the next Lance Armstrong comes along, the peloton will be the willing accomplice of that dope cheat as well.

ˆˆ^this

i've been saying the same for a while. I'm sick of the anti-fan-fanboys pinning everything that's wrong on cycling on LAnce.

he cheated, he lied, and he finally got caught. good riddance.

BUT, a new lance WILL start crushing every race, maybe he's already here, and it's sad that the anti lance brigade will still be writing threads to keep on proving how lance cheated since 1991....

 

[Pazuzu]

Lance will hang low for a while, wait for this to blow over, then re-emerge as with the cancer fighting trope, "pursue my life's work" blah, blah, blah...

Thing is, it may not work. As gullible as the American public can be, they don't like being played. Now that the general public knows the full extent of Wonderboy's deception, not to mention the appalling behavior he engaged in to cover it up, they may not be inclined to forgive him, especially if he doesn't come clean.

 

[mountainrman]

seriously? your dislike of big george appears less than objective

lance cheated to those 7 tour wins and deserved to lose them all

i read an ioc member announce the obvious 'lance has no credibility'

ouch! poor lance..............that's gotta hurt!

I don't dislike Big George.But the fact that others liked him too much is the problem.The only thing you can construe from the lack of sentence is too many other people "liked" him, who should have been judging objectively instead

Lance could not have won without a group of committed, knowing and willing helpers such as George - every justice system would regard his part in the conspiracy as fundamental and just as culpable. Everywhere but in cycling, "the nazi defence" that is the "just doing what i was told" is no defence at all.

That is the reason that the likes of Tygart must not be allowed to pass sentence again. He was out to get Lance, not judge the team as a whole objectivel, so completely imbalanced the sentences.

The fact that lance won is a complete irrelevance. It is doping that is the crime, not winning, or getting caught. And Hincapie doped for a decade too, trying to help cheat Lance into yellow so there is nothing to pick between them.

The only crime that discriminates lance from george is systematic intimidation which should be sanctioned additionally. But then McQuaid is good at that too, and bad mouths and insult everyone who points out the reality of doping, including Betsy for example, even suing **** Pound of WADA - so if lance deserves sanction for that , so does McQuaid.

Until cycling sorts its justice out, there is no hope.

Till then we will keep scapegoating a few, saying the sport is clean. Until the next scandal that is.

 

[Pazuzu]

That is the reason that the likes of Tygart must not be allowed to pass sentence again. He was out to get Lance, not judge the team as a whole objectivel, so completely imbalanced the sentences.

The fact that lance won is a complete irrelevance. It is doping that is the crime, not winning, or getting caught. And Hincapie doped for a decade too, trying to help cheat Lance into yellow so there is nothing to pick between them.

Where's that smiley icon hitting its head against a brick wall?

Lance, was given an opportunity to cooperate with USADA's investigation just like every other rider. Had he cooperated he would have been allowed to retain Five TdF titles, which is pretty generous considering he didn't earn any of them. But Lance told USADA to go to hell. Now he has to live with the consequences.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I feel absolutely no pity for LA at all. Not one iota. He's still extremely wealthy and built that wealth dishonestly. He has lived life in the lap of luxury and adulation for the last twenty years, and it was all based on deceit and fraud.

Ask me again in another 20 years.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Lance could not have won without a group of committed, knowing and willing helpers such as George - every justice system would regard his part in the conspiracy as fundamental and just as culpable. Everywhere but in cycling, "the nazi defence" that is the "just doing what i was told" is no defence at all.

Don't get out much, do you. Let this one go too. Sometimes you cut the lower-ranked criminals some slack for turning on the boss.

That is the reason that the likes of Tygart must not be allowed to pass sentence again. He was out to get Lance, not judge the team as a whole objectivel, so completely imbalanced the sentences..

Ugh. Again, you are re-writing history to have it fit your crazy outlook. There were a few others charged at the same time... Marti, Del Moral, and The Hog.

WADA was designed to provide the appearance of a legitimate anti-doping process. Proof of that is Wonderboy's lawyer was part of the team that fabricated the thing. It was designed to be a toothless, 2 kilo dog. Harmless! Wonderboy and the others charged were so deep into their fraud the foundation for the sanctions was like USADA getting a gift. It is Wonderboy's fault for running an egregiously fraudulent enterprise for which he still hasn't been criminally charged. Wonderboy, and his boss Thom Wiesel did this to themselves.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I agree entirely - it is a big mistake to blame armstrong for the culture - because it shifts blame from many others who need similar sanction for similar deeds.

The only thing Armstrong did that went "over and above" the others was the legal enforcement of omerta in a particularly vindictive way - which deserves an extra period of ban. But then - part of that problem is the amoral legal profession that will do anything and recommend anything provided you pay them enough: no doubt some of the "dirty tricks" were not even dreamed up by Armstrong, although he must carry the can for anything done in his name.



Nothing to do with it in Hincapies case.

Hincapie is a rat that was last to desert a sinking ship - and the ONLY reason he confessed was a gun pointed at his head and a picture of Marion Jones. Leipheimer stated once they give you immunity you have no choice but tell all or jail for contempt or perjury, so that is the reason he spoke ditto Leipheimer, ditto no doubt Landis etc ( I recollect he did not go to Novitsky after a phone call until served a subpoena - or was that Hamilton?). Once Hincapie had confessed to the feds, he could assume his testimony sooner or later would either leak or appear in public domain, so had little choice but to tell all to Tygart.

None of them would or should risk jail for lance.

He confessed because it cost him nothing. Zero. He was allowed to ride his last TdF( which was outrageous!) and then retire, with a meaningless ban.

If there was any justice in cycling that should not be. He was a key and wiling "officer" in the army that conspired and career doper before and after lance. So Lance (lifetime ban) and Hincapie (no real sanction) is clearly wrong. The nazi defence has never been allowed in any real court of law "I am not the bad guy, because the boss told me too _ I only did what I was told, I did not run the show "that defence only works in kangaroo courts. It is not allowed in any real justice. Hincapie is as guity as Lance and Bruyneel. Without a willing and able bunch of Hincapies, lance could not have done what he did. Cycling is a team sport. The entire team conspired willingly, not just the leader.

Those who think that Hincapie is "good" because he confessed and Lance is "bad" are ignoring the unlevel playing field. Hincapie was given immunity. Lance was not. And tit is that (not Hincapie being a nice fellow) is the difference in why Lance has not confessed.

So you cannot judge lance on whether he "confessed" or not, until the penalties for doing so are made the same as all the other rats..

I think it is wrong to scapegoat armstrong for the wrongs of a generation.
Not least because it will divert attention from all the very real problems elsewhere.

Why is Riis still in the sport, and allowed to keep his TdF title?

For 20 years cycling has scapegoated a few to keep the UCI machine intact. The whole idea of scapegoating , with massive penalties for some and derisory ones for others must be dismantled

The only way forward is a sentencing body independent of UCI or local doping authorities who prosecute. That way cycling can start to get some credibiilty back.

Am, I don't think George is the last rat to leave the pirate ship Armstrong, seems you haven't found a way out yet.

Even poor Phil finally succumbed to the Kool-aid in the end.

 

[TheEnoculator]

Why would anybody feel sorry for Armstrong? Even he himself isn't sorry for what he did, and if you know Armstrong, he would never confess and beg for forgiveness. Besides, he brought this upon himself, and he's the prepetrator, not the victim. So why should anybody feel bad for him?

I say let the SOB burn!

 

[mountainrman]

Am, I don't think George is the last rat to leave the pirate ship Armstrong, seems you haven't found a way out yet.

Even poor Phil finally succumbed to the Kool-aid in the end.

Can you read?

Nowhere have I supported Armstrong either by implication or fact.
I am just not one of the clinics braindead lynch mob - I am interested in the future of cycling not the enjoyment of the Deserved come uppance of Armstrong

There are wider implications for both justice and cycling, and kangaroo courts that play favourites with no sentence at all for people they like, and vilifying and scapegoating those who are not liked is just more of the same for cycling - it is part of the reason why the sport wide problem has never been tackled.

What part of "hincapie was a whole career doper who contributed as much as anyone else to the doping conspiracy that took 7 tdf titles, so deserves the same treatment as the other participants" do you not understand? Were this a real legal process instead of a mockery his " nazi defence" of I was not the boss, so am not really to blame would be laughed out of court and would be met with the same sentence for conspiracy.

Cycling has learned nothing, other than how to scapegoat a few (again) and say it is clean ( again) . Till the next time that is.

 

[ebandit]

blah blah blah

Can you read?

Nowhere have I supported Armstrong either by implication or fact.

Cycling has learned nothing, other than how to scapegoat a few (again) and say it is clean ( again) . Till the next time that is.

blah blah blah............why? not be succinct

every day is the same.............'lance was harshly treated ..a scapegoat'

lance is a complete 'lowlife' and got everything he deserved

big george cheated in sport but did not bully / manipulate / extort

why? not take your grievance re big george to it's own thread

my sentance structure may be waywardly creative but at least i get to the point

 

[mountainrman]

blah blah blah............why? not be succinct

every day is the same.............'lance was harshly treated ..a scapegoat'

lance is a complete 'lowlife' and got everything he deserved

big george cheated in sport but did not bully / manipulate / extort

why? not take your grievance re big george to it's own thread

my sentance structure may be waywardly creative but at least i get to the point

And so do I get to the point.

There is no absolute standard for cycling punishments, they are so variable it is hard to find a pattern - and cycling only pays lip service to its own rule book anyway.

All you can do is compare punishments in relative terms.

And in that comparison armstrong was clearly more harshly treated than Riis (still in the sport, still has TdF title, managing teams heavily implicated in doping since). No Ban at all, that I am aware of, unlike Bruyneel now kicked out of the sport.

And Armstrongs punishment is outrageous compared to Hincapie, who got no punishment at all ( 6 months over winter AFTER retiring, and riding last TdF) despite extorting money from the sport for an entire career of doping, and helping Lance every inch to "victory" as a willing and committed helper. If George opposed the treatment of Emma and Betsy WHY DIDNT HE LEAVE??? He knew the truth! By not speaking out or leaving, he is just as guilty, complicit from start to finish. Accessory before, during and after the fact. .


Neither riis nor hincapie "confessed" till it cost them nothing.

So Armstrong WAS harshly treated - no doubt about it.

Not as harshly as Rasmussen - a defacto ban for life by the efforts of UCI to prevent him joining any other team. His crime? Lying once on his whereabouts form! Unlike unrepetant doper Vinkourov, helped backinto the sport.

Intimidation - and defaming those who speak out deserves an extra ban for sure - Lance did it in aparticularly nasty way. But then - Mcquaid is guilty of that too. Where is his sanction? He deserves a several year ban for abusing his position to defame all who spoke out against lance - and even suing **** Pound of WADA for saying similar - now attacking journalists legally(personally), not the papers who publish their writings. Where is McQuaids lifetime ban?

Cycling has to start (a) Having a set of rules (b) enforcing them equally and everywhere without fear or favour (c) using a proper justice process to do it.

(- and that must include in spain and for such as Contador) to ever get back credibility.


Right now it is a laughing stock, that makes a mockery of "Justice"
and such as Hincapie getting off free, makes it worse.

Travis Tygart likes to say in his smug self satisfied manner "lance was given the same chance to be part of the solution" . No he wasnt. The rest were granted immunity. So lance cannot speak out. Period. A far reaching difference. If there was a conspiracy to defraud USPS (TBD, and sub judice) Hincapie was a substantive part of it. IN real law, unlike cycling law, not being the "boss" is no defence.

 

[Benotti69]

BLAH BLAH

- I am interested in the future of cycling

BLAH BLAH.

Then you are doing your absolute damndest to hide that by constantly talking about Armstrong and the so called process bringing him to book being flawed.

Well it caught Armstrong so it cant be that flawed.

If you were truly interested in the future of the sport you would be writing to people in the sport who are in control of it not the clinic where you constantly post about Armstrong and so called flawed process.

You are a LIAR and a TROLL:

 

[ebandit]

please...

And so do I get to the point.


And in that comparison armstrong was clearly more harshly treated

lance cheated to 7 wins...........was caught and lost those wins....that's not harsh it's fair

big george lost wins too

alberto was caught and lost wins

consistant treatment

now what is truly harsh is that your upset that your lance now 'has no place in cycling'

 

[Cramps]

A google-trend indication of how the masses think of armstrong, then and now:

"armstrong doping" in blue
"armstrong cancer" in red

Google trends: armstrong doping vs armstrong cancer

 

[Bosco10]

lance cheated to 7 wins...........was caught and lost those wins....that's not harsh it's fair

big george lost wins too

alberto was caught and lost wins

consistant treatment

now what is truly harsh is that your upset that your lance now 'has no place in cycling'

Lance may have been able to keep some wins, but he refused to cooperate and said he was done with it. I think Lance didn't fully realize that the hammer was going to come down on him.