Lance Pharmstrong (Cow blood spinners, autologous blood, androgens, HGH) (SERIOUS)

[sars1981]

Don't know if you ment it but if you did that is classic. Saustre That would be an awesome nickname if he is actually on the sauce. Bit obvious but still awesome.

But in regard to Evans and Saustre's bad performance the idea posted above crossed my mind too. Maybe the big GC guys are on new juice, because of positives last year + from Giro + widespread Italian doping culture being busted + Kohl talking etc etc and some teams aren't as adapted to the new juice as others ie . Astana. Or possibly he got a bad bag.

I meant it!

The way I see, the doping is a rather intricate process that has to be refined in technique every year and modified to adapt the changing controls. So when guys go from road kings to road kill (Evans, Saustre ), my suspicion is that their doping plan did not work out very well this year (or, yes, just a bag bag, God knows it's happened before). The thing with Astana guys etc is that their doping is always state of the art...

 

[runninboy]

Google Actovegin.

My family has raised purebred cattle for decades, and we were contacted by the company involved. We passed their screening process and then we didn't hear from them for quite sometime. We when got back in touch they told us they were running into serious problems with clotting and basically they needed to go back to the lab before proceeding any further.

Besides this fact a couple other things about this company and their "product" raised my suspicion. They did alot of media exposure in small towns with beef producers, it was kind of like this was going to be a life saver.It would be freeze dried so soldiers could carry it into battle and get an immediate transfusion on the battlefield rather than bleed to death. Great quantities would be sent to Africa, blah blah blah.
However when i returned their call they were very secretive and then their excuses were" we are developing this through a defense contract so we can't talk about it" Then when i talked to someone higher up it was " we are just a small company and have to be very quiet about our product"
Yet another person there told me" we are just a small company of scientists who wanted to do something about suffering, but we plan on taking the company public in a very short time"

All these things then made sense as i have seen it before,
a small company has just created the next big thing,
we have a defense contract so we can't talk about it, don't tell anyone
we will be going public soon, so get in on the ground floor

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Though I don't like the guy's mouth, D!ck Pound pointed out in one of his books that something like 75% of all EPO usage went to sports athletes.

i'm not accusing anyone of anything but i had the exact opposite feeling, that maybe they were trying to ride "cleaner" while others continued on their merry way. who knows?

Or they want to make sure they don't get caught...

 

[sars1981]

Or they want to make sure they don't get caught...

Exactly, the other guys have figured out a way around this years controls, Evans hasn't.

 

[Bagster]

You forgot EPO.

Hey welcome back Bigboat, hope the chemistry exams went well. Good to see you back with more unsubstantiated speculation. How about that Tom Watson though in the golf! He must have had bags of that crap in his golf bag.

Your fanboys will be rapt you're back to give them the inside scoop....the Walter Cronkite of the Clinic forum.

 

[Bagster]

My family has raised purebred cattle for decades, and we were contacted by the company involved. We passed their screening process and then we didn't hear from them for quite sometime. We when got back in touch they told us they were running into serious problems with clotting and basically they needed to go back to the lab before proceeding any further.

Besides this fact a couple other things about this company and their "product" raised my suspicion. They did alot of media exposure in small towns with beef producers, it was kind of like this was going to be a life saver.It would be freeze dried so soldiers could carry it into battle and get an immediate transfusion on the battlefield rather than bleed to death. Great quantities would be sent to Africa, blah blah blah.
However when i returned their call they were very secretive and then their excuses were" we are developing this through a defense contract so we can't talk about it" Then when i talked to someone higher up it was " we are just a small company and have to be very quiet about our product"
Yet another person there told me" we are just a small company of scientists who wanted to do something about suffering, but we plan on taking the company public in a very short time"

All these things then made sense as i have seen it before,
a small company has just created the next big thing,
we have a defense contract so we can't talk about it, don't tell anyone
we will be going public soon, so get in on the ground floor

Wow when you put it like that it's just so obvious, I can see the link to cycling straight away! On the other hand maybe it was the Di Luca family business who contacted you.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Lol!

:d

.

 

[runninboy]

Wow when you put it like that it's just so obvious, I can see the link to cycling straight away! On the other hand maybe it was the Di Luca family business who contacted you.

What i am saying is people on this board see press releases about a product being the next big thing and automatically cyclists are using it to dope?
My experience with the company and its so called product made me very suspicious of its validity & existence.

Maybe someone on this board had primary experience with the products in question but so far it seems the only proof that the product exists is that they read about it on the internet.
it must be true

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

What i am saying is people on this board see press releases about a product being the next big thing and automatically cyclists are using it to dope?

You're exactly right. We should include athletes from other sports as well.

 

[R.0.t.O]

The Doctor is in the House loving it.

But you forgot my personal favourites which are perflourocarbons. Someone out there will have cracked the protocol for using these relatively safely in sport. And then you can keep your crit down at much more compelling numbers, pass all the tests and still make the podium at GTs.

 

[patswana]

Everybody seems to think that Evans is the clean guy. I think sudden drop in performance reaks of a bad doping program. Same with Saustre. When a rider has an unexpected bad performance it suggests that they are not up to speed with the latest doping techniques. You can't trust any of these guys.

I also think it it the opposite.

The three guys who were up there on GC last year - Sastre, Evans, Menchov (excluding Kohl for obvious reasons) - were all nowhere to be seen this year. Last year was considered to be relatively clean with some notable individual exceptions. This year, those three were all in good form in the lead up yet couldn't keep up when Contador was doing the fastest ever ascent in Tour history then smashing everyone in the ITT. I know who I am more suspicious about.

 

[Cloxxki]

My theory is that Lance in on NOTHING ILLEGAL, at least not now. Not even microdosing before races.
He's a big engine, always has been. All his body, is about speed and endurance. Not a guy who just fancies a random sport and decides to train hard.

I think he won his world championship on shear talent and a fearless heart. His tours, I think he won by smartly taking nutrition additives.

I've experiences first-hand how significant the effect of good nutrition and individual-specific additives are. They really help a rider get in shape, and cope with tough training and racing. The races I'm proud of, I was frequently taking a commercially available, legal additive which worked well for me at the time. It's not doping, else the "list" would show it.
When caffeine was on the list, I was sure to not drink too much Coke. When it was allowed again, I tried to use it to my advantage. Good to be sharp in short MTB races, but bad (for me) in terms of cramping. I lost a certain top placing in a huge local race that way once.

Riders missing the intellect or patience to find out which additives helps them in which way (it's not as easy as EPO or other "newspaper" drugs), simply go for the newspaper drugs, supposing hardly anyone ever gets caught, and while everyone is doing it.

Sport is NOT fair. The most talented guys have an edge, a big one. If that guy trains and lives like LA or AC, only bad luck and forgetting to eat can beat them. If they also take smart additives, the competition ends up "forced" to dope. There is no winning otherwise, at that level anyway.

No-one ever speaks of additives. They are not on the "list". But I guarantee you, the one guy will make a greater effort at getting their intake right that the other.
If they raid a team bus and find D-Ribose or Calcium Pyruvaat, it will not make the news. It's a race secret, I suppose, what riders really "eat".

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

If BigBoat would care to come back on here, I'm sure he'll share some numbers showing that Lance's "big engine" isn't actually as big as some other racers.

You don't really think Lance is the only one getting nutritional advice, do you? You make it sound like he's the only one getting such expert advice, while everyone else is just like you and me.

 

[patswana]

My theory is that Lance in on NOTHING ILLEGAL, at least not now. Not even microdosing before races.
He's a big engine, always has been. All his body, is about speed and endurance. Not a guy who just fancies a random sport and decides to train hard.

I think he won his world championship on shear talent and a fearless heart. His tours, I think he won by smartly taking nutrition additives.

I've experiences first-hand how significant the effect of good nutrition and individual-specific additives are. They really help a rider get in shape, and cope with tough training and racing. The races I'm proud of, I was frequently taking a commercially available, legal additive which worked well for me at the time. It's not doping, else the "list" would show it.
When caffeine was on the list, I was sure to not drink too much Coke. When it was allowed again, I tried to use it to my advantage. Good to be sharp in short MTB races, but bad (for me) in terms of cramping. I lost a certain top placing in a huge local race that way once.

Riders missing the intellect or patience to find out which additives helps them in which way (it's not as easy as EPO or other "newspaper" drugs), simply go for the newspaper drugs, supposing hardly anyone ever gets caught, and while everyone is doing it.

Sport is NOT fair. The most talented guys have an edge, a big one. If that guy trains and lives like LA or AC, only bad luck and forgetting to eat can beat them. If they also take smart additives, the competition ends up "forced" to dope. There is no winning otherwise, at that level anyway.

No-one ever speaks of additives. They are not on the "list". But I guarantee you, the one guy will make a greater effort at getting their intake right that the other.
If they raid a team bus and find D-Ribose or Calcium Pyruvaat, it will not make the news. It's a race secret, I suppose, what riders really "eat".

From whom did you get this information?
The Easter Bunny or the tooth fairy?

 

[red_explosions]

BigB - You want to tell me again you're not Mustardjunkie? I honestly don't care that much, as long as you behave here. I actually found it amusing at times the way you (presuming it's you) would blindside these poor YouTube surfers who would naively post something about Lance. Then, WHAMMO! Along comes Mustardjunkie, full voltage shock therapy!

LOL great link Alpe. Almost fell off my chair laughing at that one. Has to be BB.

I quote:

'IN Summary: Saline is administered as soon as the team manager is informed strait non corrupt testers are coming, These drugs used:
steroids, cortisone, amphetamines, chemo boosters RSR-13, Interleukins, insulin, peptide hormones, thyriod drugs, asthma, and blood boosting, cow blood, insulin, hGH, eGH, IGF, most corticoids, female hormones and estrogen blockers, heamopure, oxyglobin, etc. etc.'

Just pure BB lol

 

[Cloxxki]

From whom did you get this information?
The Easter Bunny or the tooth fairy?

I said "theory", smart behind. And I shared my own experiences which are in line with well performing athletes passing doping tests.

Additionally, about that big engine.
It's not ONLY about who's got the biggest. Men often like to think though.
It's what you do with it.

If a guy with 5% more power to weight takes on Lance on a final hill, other detemining factors come into action. Endurance after 200km, saving efforts along those, smart body-specific nutricion, and pedaling efficiency.
If the stronger guys has been pedaling the big gear for 200km, and then continues to do so for the last 20km uphill, it's going to be hard win over the "lesser" rider. I didn't even mention tactics yet.
Isn't that what's interesting about sports? If Vo2Max were the only determination, we could do away with closing streets for cycling. Everyone would get an ergotrainer test in the morning for 3 weeks on end, results would be posted on Cyclingnews, and accumulated to an overall GC. Those interested in stage wins would additionally do a max output test. that's easy enough.
Tour d'Ergo?

I'm not the most talented guy out there, and I'm rather lazy when it comes to training. I've been able to make that up with smarter race tactics, efficient bike handling, a custom bike build specific for a race (parts especially), smooth pedaling, and also to some extent nutricion. That's SPORTS for you.
Oh, and I'm 83kg when fi, yet I can climb with the best of them, while I lose out bigtime on flat headwind stretches.
Performance is what you make of your restraints

BTW, in rowing there is an ergotrainer racing scene. Biggest engine wins, pretty much.

 

[poupou]

Lance never showed that kind of abilities before meeting Ferrari. Suddenly after 12or 16 months away of cyling, he got a 20-30% improvements !

Should we believe in miracles?

How long it takes to improve by 2% capacity for a already well trained athletes?

 

[Cloxxki]

Sure? Know about the level of triathlon competition?
About Lances stupid solo road racing, attacking from the start?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I'm not going to defend Lance, but I will say two things if someone wants to credit him:

He met Ferrari in late 1995. Lance still didn't race well in 1996. It really wasn't until the cancer was out of his system and he came back that he started to perform better. I do think Ferrari had something to do with that as well, of course.

Lance is one of, if not the most driven athletes in the world. He reminds me of Lenny Dykstra, former MLB player for the Mets and Phillies, who would just refuse to lose down to the last possible swing of the bat in every game, and was focused to the absolute core. Lenny's nickname was "Nails", as in tough as... Had nowhere near the natural talent of someone like Ken Griffey Jr. but made everything out of his body and mind from what God gave him, and willed two teams to the World Series, and almost another. Oh, and a lot of people thought the guy was an *** too.

Compare Lance and his focus to the riders like Jan, or Marco, or even Tyler or Kloden for that matter. Those guys were great, and did train, and had expert help. But they just were not driven to the core and uber confident the way Lance is. If this is part of his "engine" then, sure.

 

[x0etrem]

Dykstra was an ironic choice

I'm not going to defend Lance, but I will say two things if someone wants to credit him:

He met Ferrari in late 1995. Lance still didn't race well in 1996. It really wasn't until the cancer was out of his system and he came back that he started to perform better. I do think Ferrari had something to do with that as well, of course.

Lance is one of, if not the most driven athletes in the world. He reminds me of Lenny Dykstra, former MLB player for the Mets and Phillies, who would just refuse to lose down to the last possible swing of the bat in every game, and was focused to the absolute core. Lenny's nickname was "Nails", as in tough as... Had nowhere near the natural talent of someone like Ken Griffey Jr. but made everything out of his body and mind from what God gave him, and willed two teams to the World Series, and almost another. Oh, and a lot of people thought the guy was an *** too.

Compare Lance and his focus to the riders like Jan, or Marco, or even Tyler or Kloden for that matter. Those guys were great, and did train, and had expert help. But they just were not driven to the core and uber confident the way Lance is. If this is part of his "engine" then, sure.

According to the Mitchell report, along with being tough as nails, Lenny was a well known steroid user.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

According to the Mitchell report, along with being tough as nails, Lenny was a well known steroid user.

And just like cycling, in MLB he was in the vast majority, IMO.

 

[mikeNphilly]

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwn

 

[boalio]

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwn

Thank you for your mature, intelligent contribution to this discussion. It has really helped.

 

[BigBoat]

Lance never showed that kind of abilities before meeting Ferrari. Suddenly after 12or 16 months away of cyling, he got a 20-30% improvements !

Should we believe in miracles?

How long it takes to improve by 2% capacity for a already well trained athletes?

Yeah and Lance did perform better that yearr until his cancer. His La Flèche Wallonne win is proof of that.

 

[BigBoat]

I'm not going to defend Lance, but I will say two things if someone wants to credit him:

He met Ferrari in late 1995. Lance still didn't race well in 1996. It really wasn't until the cancer was out of his system and he came back that he started to perform better. I do think Ferrari had something to do with that as well, of course.

Lance is one of, if not the most driven athletes in the world. He reminds me of Lenny Dykstra, former MLB player for the Mets and Phillies, who would just refuse to lose down to the last possible swing of the bat in every game, and was focused to the absolute core. Lenny's nickname was "Nails", as in tough as... Had nowhere near the natural talent of someone like Ken Griffey Jr. but made everything out of his body and mind from what God gave him, and willed two teams to the World Series, and almost another. Oh, and a lot of people thought the guy was an *** too.

Compare Lance and his focus to the riders like Jan, or Marco, or even Tyler or Kloden for that matter. Those guys were great, and did train, and had expert help. But they just were not driven to the core and uber confident the way Lance is. If this is part of his "engine" then, sure.

Lance was very driven but he was a great responder to drug therapy and he had Dr. Ferrari whom Tyler Hamilton, Sevilla, Ullrich, Basso, Mancebo, etc did not have. Ferrari has tricks and combos other doctors do not get. All the pros are VERY driven. Lance typically came into the season at 170 pounds and dropped down to his Tour weight of 160. He raced minimally to avoid having to dope for lesser races.

Many riders like Valverde worked much harder than Lance has in my opinion... Valverde raced a full calander and never gains weight in the the winter. He did not win the Tour. Basso, Ullrich, Hamilton, Mancebo, Heras, F-all, etc had higher undoped V02 maxes then Lance. They never won even a single Tour apart from Ullrich's win in 1997. $hit even Frankie Andreau had a higher winter V02 max then Lance. He never even got a top 50.

And yet Lance beats and beat all these doped riders with higher undoped talent than him totally clean! According to the general media, Sastre is also "Mr. Clean" and Lance's winning with a lower V02 max then ALL his competitors is due to "lactic buffering" and "scraping mud of his shoes".

Of course thats just my pointing out some irregularities in the "perfect" world of Pro sports. LOL, you can take it whichever way I guess. But I dont think Lance has worked any harder than any other top rider.