Lance Pharmstrong (Cow blood spinners, autologous blood, androgens, HGH) (SERIOUS)

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BigBoat said:
Yeah and Lance did perform better that yearr until his cancer. His La Flèche Wallonne win is proof of that.
Does any such remark have meaning, knowing the guy was World Champion long before this, riding Indurain out of his wheel, and they doing a lap solo?
Lance was seniors WC in the same year Ullrich took the -23's. Just, Lance was also -23 but chose to take on the big guns. Now don't tell us Ullrich only started doping later in life to win the TdF. He would have been one lonely outcast in the East German cycling scene.

Lance either doped already as a minor, or never needed it to win at any level.
Lance got through mountains decently when he was pretty much a blown up swimmer. He lost the weight, he flew up mountains. Ask Wiggens about the effect of a lean body on climbing performance when you're a proven high-power flyer.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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Serious

did you not see the beginning of this post? at first i thought big boat might be joking but then....i saw it. yes, the word serious in all caps!!! surely this is enough. do we need to continue to debate whether Pharmstrong took doping products any longer????
 
Mar 19, 2009
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eigenvalu2 said:
did you not see the beginning of this post? at first i thought big boat might be joking but then....i saw it. yes, the word serious in all caps!!! surely this is enough. do we need to continue to debate whether Pharmstrong took doping products any longer????
I was using the irony of another thread on the forum. ;)

Does any such remark have meaning, knowing the guy was World Champion long before this, riding Indurain out of his wheel, and they doing a lap solo?
Lance was seniors WC in the same year Ullrich took the -23's. Just, Lance was also -23 but chose to take on the big guns. Now don't tell us Ullrich only started doping later in life to win the TdF. He would have been one lonely outcast in the East German cycling scene.

Lance either doped already as a minor, or never needed it to win at any level.
Lance got through mountains decently when he was pretty much a blown up swimmer. He lost the weight, he flew up mountains. Ask Wiggens about the effect of a lean body on climbing performance when you're a proven high-power flyer.
No doubt Lance has talent and his worlds win was impressive but epo was candy by that point and lance was certainly jacked for that race. Even at this point Lance was never Grand Tour rider and he DNF'd his first Tours. When he really tried hard he was 36 th. The 93-96 Tours when Lance "stayed in" for those first mountains you saw Lance's V02 max talent (oxygen assimilation per Kilo). Lance was on EPO for that race and he was loosing large chunks of time 20-30 minutes.

Lance also weighed pretty much the same pre and post cancer/ Dr. Ferrari consultation. Lance "looked" leaner post Dr. Ferrari consultation but his weight was 165 for his worlds win as a 22 year old, and according to him now, 165 for this TDF. So you cant really say Lance has had a "swimmers build" during his Pro Cycling career. Lances FTP shot through the roof on the Dr. Ferrari drug program. His sustainable power output increased and his lean muscle mass increased. He now looks "skinnier" because his lean muscle mass is higher than what he had pre-Ferrari.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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irony

and i was using the irony of the irony to point out that you are 100% correct and further debate on this point is useless. ;) anyone who doesnt believe that pharmstrong is correctly named is seriously under-informed or living with peter in never-never land. even don quixote knows better to argue this one and he tilts against windmills
 
Jun 16, 2009
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BigBoat said:
Cow blood (synthetic), autologous, HGH, or IGF-1, slin, acto, androgens, vasilodators, stimulants, lets see...what else has their been?

Welcome back to the forum. Good to see that you've started off with a bang!
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Cloxxki said:
Does any such remark have meaning, knowing the guy was World Champion long before this, riding Indurain out of his wheel, and they doing a lap solo?
Lance was seniors WC in the same year Ullrich took the -23's. Just, Lance was also -23 but chose to take on the big guns. Now don't tell us Ullrich only started doping later in life to win the TdF. He would have been one lonely outcast in the East German cycling scene.

Lance either doped already as a minor, or never needed it to win at any level.
Lance got through mountains decently when he was pretty much a blown up swimmer. He lost the weight, he flew up mountains. Ask Wiggens about the effect of a lean body on climbing performance when you're a proven high-power flyer.
Surely your joking:eek:.
He started before cycling. Jim Ochowicz was his coach in his early career which leads me to believe he's in on it, like kohl, he was doping as a nineteen yr old which means before pro cycling as kohl was involved in the army.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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BigBoat said:
Lance was very driven but he was a great responder to drug therapy and he had Dr. Ferrari whom Tyler Hamilton, Sevilla, Ullrich, Basso, Mancebo, etc did not have. Ferrari has tricks and combos other doctors do not get. All the pros are VERY driven. Lance typically came into the season at 170 pounds and dropped down to his Tour weight of 160. He raced minimally to avoid having to dope for lesser races.

Many riders like Valverde worked much harder than Lance has in my opinion... Valverde raced a full calander and never gains weight in the the winter. He did not win the Tour. Basso, Ullrich, Hamilton, Mancebo, Heras, F-all, etc had higher undoped V02 maxes then Lance. They never won even a single Tour apart from Ullrich's win in 1997. $hit even Frankie Andreau had a higher winter V02 max then Lance. He never even got a top 50.

And yet Lance beats and beat all these doped riders with higher undoped talent than him totally clean! According to the general media, Sastre is also "Mr. Clean" and Lance's winning with a lower V02 max then ALL his competitors is due to "lactic buffering" and "scraping mud of his shoes".

Of course thats just my pointing out some irregularities in the "perfect" world of Pro sports. LOL, you can take it whichever way I guess. But I dont think Lance has worked any harder than any other top rider.

And you base all this on what? :confused: Cause everything I've read, is completely contrary to the above: http://www.edb.utexas.edu/coyle/armstrong.php

Anyway, in the world of sports, nothing really surprises me anymore.Thus, since it is a business first and foremost, what those guys do to get and keep "that edge", isn't really shocking anymore once they've been uncovered/revealed. Hence, insofar as Lance using, it really wouldn't shock me, but what is a more likely scenerio is: he may be doing/done gene therapy Vs. a doping regime. Thus, I remember when he was cured/in remission of cancer, and he was doing those Bristol-Myers-Squibb commercials.In essence, the gist was after their drugs helped cure him, in the future, it would be a simple regime of gene therapy instead of the radiation/chemotherapy. BYMMV :)

Consequently, Lance's only deficiency was muscle efficiency,but with hard trainging and a realized 5+ kilo weight loss,that made the difference according to Dr. Coyle's documentations.Again, without ever testing positive, a gene therapy regime seems a more likely probability than a doping regime for such gains-as nothing has ever come to light.

Lastly, like Lance or dislike Lance, I can't prove she-it nor can anyone else for now or ever. And, truth be told, I actually like Lance,but in today's world, I am also a realist as well. ;)
 
Sep 10, 2009
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Mellow Velo said:

Actually Mellow, the Coyle Paper was a mere example,but thanks for helping my belief that it isn't a doping regime, but rather gene therapy-if anything at all.Also, I can go back to the web find more articles supporting Coyle like results,but why bother? Cause your "research" points out since he's sans one nut he should be less efficient.But again,YMMV. :D
 
Sep 11, 2009
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Most of these studies are done with obvious bias.

I am a chiropractor who has actually worked with Armstrong. None of you know what your talking about.

His blood values at Livestrong are proof that he is not doing any doping.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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HombredeSubaru said:
Most of these studies are done with obvious bias.

I am a chiropractor who has actually worked with Armstrong. None of you know what your talking about.

His blood values at Livestrong are proof that he is not doing any doping.
you talk BS, if you worked with Armstrong, that means you are significantly compromised, and not independent in any way.

projecting Hombre, projecting.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Cloxxki said:
Lance got through mountains decently when he was pretty much a blown up swimmer. He lost the weight, he flew up mountains. Ask Wiggens about the effect of a lean body on climbing performance when you're a proven high-power flyer.

Lance never lost weight. A myth started by incorrect interpretation of the Coyle paper and perpetuated by the Lance PR machine. Here are the only recorded weights of Armstrong pre and post-cancer, published in Coyle's paper in Table 2:

Picture1-1.png


No weight loss.

While weight loss was obviously a factor in Wiggins's performance in this year's TdF, when a reported asked Wiggins about his success he stated that it was not the weight loss (in direct contradiction to your statement) but I belief in his abilities on the road, one which he had not had before.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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DevoidoFacts said:
And you base all this on what? :confused: Cause everything I've read, is completely contrary to the above: http://www.edb.utexas.edu/coyle/armstrong.php

Consequently, Lance's only deficiency was muscle efficiency,but with hard trainging and a realized 5+ kilo weight loss,that made the difference according to Dr. Coyle's documentations.Again, without ever testing positive, a gene therapy regime seems a more likely probability than a doping regime for such gains-as nothing has ever come to light.

Lastly, like Lance or dislike Lance, I can't prove she-it nor can anyone else for now or ever. And, truth be told, I actually like Lance,but in today's world, I am also a realist as well. ;)

There are other threads discussing the Coyle paper in excruciating detail. While Armstrong improved his efficiency, this has also subsequently been shown to the same or greater degrees in other professional cyclists. So the improvement in Lance's efficiency with time, regardless of whether the methodology was correct, is not so remarkable. Coyle's other two conclusions are wrong. Lance did not lose body weight and his fat percentage was not measured post-cancer in Coyle's paper and hence this is unknown. His improvement in power-to-weight ratio is based on flawed data. When using the appropriate data the improvement in his power-to-weight ratio is 7.0% compared to 1992 and 1.6% compared to 1993. All of this is summarized in or can be calculated from the data presented in Table 2 of Coyle's paper:

Picture1-1.png


So your argument is incorrect - improved efficiency is common in professional cyclists and there never was any weight loss. As for proof, EPO in 1999 and cortisone with the magical retrospective TUE. That is the factual proof, but there is plenty more circumstantial evidence that builds like a bonfire.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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HombredeSubaru said:
His blood values at Livestrong are proof that he is not doing any doping.

There is another thread on this as well. His blood values from Livestrong do the opposite to what you claim. They are very strong evidence that he did actually dope (autologous transfusions most likely) on both rest days. Increased hematocrits do not happen during a stage race and this is supported in the scientific literature. In addition, hematocrits do not increase with low reticulocyte counts. The latter occur when suppressed by autologous transfusions.
 
Sep 11, 2009
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blackcat said:
you talk BS, if you worked with Armstrong, that means you are significantly compromised, and not independent in any way.

projecting Hombre, projecting.

Hay, blackcat. I know hombre from DPF and he is illigitimate. what he says is the truth!

what does spinal ajustment have to do with cow blood? In a experiment i ate cowblood pudding like brits for 1 week and filmed me climbing high overpass near my lab. after review of special VAM calculating vcr tape, VAM peaked at 1900, when normal is 1400. i may choose to eat cowblood pudding and enter/win lbl next year.
 
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Anonymous

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Okay...(snickering):p What did you guys do to get BPC stirred up?
 
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Anonymous

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Lance Armstrong used blood transfusions in the 2009 Tour de France. It really is THAT simple.
 
Sep 11, 2009
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elapid said:
There is another thread on this as well. His blood values from Livestrong do the opposite to what you claim. They are very strong evidence that he did actually dope (autologous transfusions most likely) on both rest days. Increased hematocrits do not happen during a stage race and this is supported in the scientific literature. In addition, hematocrits do not increase with low reticulocyte counts. The latter occur when suppressed by autologous transfusions.

Hay elepid. Back in the day before goo there was lepin. is that watt you are are named after? who is the guy in you're avatar that looks like his foot is stuck in a bear trap?

did you see the prolog in monty carlo? I did, and project Lance to peak at Ventoux and cover the attacks of doped up schlek bros. VAM 2300 on ventoux. You come in here and spew hate while Lance is out to give strength to millions.

come to piece with yourself and release the hate.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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logical cranium said:
Hay elepid. Back in the day before goo there was lepin. is that watt you are are named after? who is the guy in you're avatar that looks like his foot is stuck in a bear trap?

did you see the prolog in monty carlo? I did, and project Lance to peak at Ventoux and cover the attacks of doped up schlek bros. VAM 2300 on ventoux. You come in here and spew hate while Lance is out to give strength to millions.

come to piece with yourself and release the hate.

Ha. Nice try. Not biting other than to put you on my ignore list. Bye bye.
 
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Anonymous

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Lance Armstrong not only used blood transfusions at this year's Tour de France, but he cheated his way to every win in the race. People who don't understand this fact are just plain stupid.