Lance's crash yesterday

[S2Sturges]

As Jean-Francois Bernard reminds us in today's Equipe, luck - good or bad - really has nothing to do with it. Staying upright is a question of concentration, placement and bike handling skills all of which seemed to desert Armstrong on Sunday. Excuses include saddle sore/banged up hip/bonking but definitely not pressure of being under federal investigation.

Isn't that where your team comes in, keeping the leader safe and guiding him up the road. It confirms that RS is a fragmented team and even riding as a team, are not in sync. I believe LA knew RS wasn't as strong as he would have liked, hence the pressure to take risks as he wasn't protected well. And as you suggested, his mind wasn't exactly focused on the job at hand.

 

[MacRoadie]

If the WSJ was a for real newspaper they would shut up and let the authorities do their job.

35 Pulitzer Prizes. Definitely not a real newspaper.

Wall Street Journal Pulitzer Prizes

 

[Anonymous]

Hey, it took me awhile to learn the lingo. I'm not actually American born.

... Canadian?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

... Canadian?

Eastern Europe.

 

[Anonymous]

"Hey Paco, lets go laugh at Lance!"

Lance said, “We came into that round-about before the Col de la Ramaz. I clipped a pedal and then my tire rolled off and the next thing I was rolling along the ground at 60-65kph.”

I think he knew he wasn't going to finish in the top group. To him that would have been an embarrassment. I think he figured it was better to finish way, way back "due to a crash" than it would have been to be 18th on the stage and lose 3 minutes because he couldn't climb as well as the others.

And what's up with that "Lance crashed three times!" garbage that they keep spewing. He went around the first crash in the grass. The second crash was real (and due to a bad gluing job). The third time he locked up his brakes and bumped into someone who really did crash. That does not qualify as three crashes in my book.

AMEN! If unclipping and putting a foot down is a "crash" I should be dead by now.

Also agreed that loosing so much time was a deliberate choice. Except I think he knew he would have to work like the devil to maybe eek out a top ten by the end of the Tour. That would be embarassing for any Tour winner, but for the Texas sized Ego, not an option so he gave up.

 

[riobonito92]

Was there an element of panic? Why didn't Armstrong tell his minders to pace him up the climb at a steady tempo instead of going flat out to catch back up and then sprinting up the outside to be at the front of the bunch? At worst, the losses would have been limited to a minute or two at the top of Ramaz, which, having not gone into the red, with Horner and Brajkavic and Popovitch and Kloden for company, could have been pegged back up to Morzine.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

There are plenty of examples in this race and previous versions of guys getting well busted up in crashes and finishing stages with determination. Did you not watch stage 2 where Hansen broke his collarbone and then came back to the front to drive the train for Cavendish? Gerrans finished the stage yesterday with a broken arm, Van de Velde rolled home on stage 3 with busted ribs...

I was frankly astonished to see Armstrong pack it in and ride to Avoriaz like it was a cafe run. It wasn't his "a$$" that got busted in that crash - it was his head.

Soft.

Hansen crashed while the peloton was maintaining a normal pace, not racing full gas as they were when Armstrong crashed. Huge difference. The difference is whether and how much you need to go into the red to catch up. It's one thing to catch up when they're tooling along at 50-75% of max effort, it's quite another when they're at 90%.

 

[131313]

Was there an element of panic? Why didn't Armstrong tell his minders to pace him up the climb at a steady tempo instead of going flat out to catch back up and then sprinting up the outside to be at the front of the bunch? At worst, the losses would have been limited to a minute or two at the top of Ramaz, which, having not gone into the red, with Horner and Brajkavic and Popovitch and Kloden for company, could have been pegged back up to Morzine.

Well, hindsight is definitely 20/20.

In retrospect, your suggestion is probably what they should have done, but it goes against your intuition on the road. They may have just overestimated the pace which would be set on the Ramaz.

The flip side is that you really don't want to be making contact with the group at the foot of the final climb of the day. I guess it becomes a question of do you kill it, and try to recover, or ride hard tempo with less recovery time. They opted for the former, and obviously it didn't work out too well.

 

[Lajeretta4Ever]

What Pedals is Lance using these days? In the good old days, it was the Shimano DuraAce Look pedals (BTW, I have a pair to sell if anybody is interested)? I wonder if the cornering clearance is not as good as his old DuraAce pedals.

 

[richwagmn]

What Pedals is Lance using these days? In the good old days, it was the Shimano DuraAce Look pedals (BTW, I have a pair to sell if anybody is interested)? I wonder if the cornering clearance is not as good as his old DuraAce pedals.

Look KEOs. Should have been using Speedplays ;-)

 

[riobonito92]

Well, hindsight is definitely 20/20.

In retrospect, your suggestion is probably what they should have done, but it goes against your intuition on the road. They may have just overestimated the pace which would be set on the Ramaz.

I know that when I crash and can continue I have a huge adrenelin surge and want to sprint back as fast as I can - but I also have learnt that at times it is important to control that urge - and at times it the team manager needs to yell at me to calm down. Was there a failure of leadership from the DS here?

 

[ozymandias]

I'm wondering if the non-racing pressures have LA distracted. He's been on the deck this year more than I can remember. Flandis drops his bomb and LA crashes out of ToC. The following investigation starts to pick up steam along with the WSJ articles and LA clips a curb?

I don't recall aything even remotely close to this going on during his run. Is it just bad luck or is his mind elsewhere?

Yes, in this Tour, Lance has spent more time on the ground than Cristiano Ronaldo. (soccer/football fans will understand )

 

[the vagabond]

Was there a failure of leadership from the DS here?

Bruyneel had to make the call about where to position his various riders, which he got right for the most part. Even when they were riding through the team cars, before Horner dropped back, Lance appeared the most lethargic moving up. Once Horner took up the work, it was obvious that he wanted to go faster and Lance wanted to go slower.

Bottom line - the strategy was fine, assuming a less injured/more motivated Lance, which judging from the historical record would be expected. So, no failure of leadership from management, IMO.

 

[basque1]

35 Pulitzer Prizes. Definitely not a real newspaper.

Wall Street Journal Pulitzer Prizes

FYI, those Pulitzers were all awarded before Rupert Murdoch bought the paper.

**** Rupert Murdoch. He's like the emporor from Star Wars.

 

[stephens]

It's funny how all this stuff gets blown so out of proportion. Even with the crash and then basically sitting up, he still finished around 60th, even with Chavanel and way ahead of many other really good riders. And I don't mean just sprinters - I mean all around guys. So it's not like he totally phoned it in and dropped to the laughing group.

 

[Anonymous]

so is lance going to crash everytime he cant keep up?

 

[pedaling squares]

maybe next year he can ride the TdF for Euskaltel...

Yes, the new leader of team Youskidwell.

 

[rata de sentina]

Yesterday, there was about a minute gap to make up in about 5 to 7K's. The peloton was in full throttle thanks to Team Delusional...err...Team Sky. Then Astana hits the front when the climb starts. There was no chance. I doubt that Armstrong in his absolute prime would have fared any differently. These were pretty much impossible circumstances.

Maybe. Personally I think there are a few factors involved. To give LA his due he isn't making all the excuses here and has owned up that he was at fault in the crash. It's the fanboys who are making up all these extra 'crashes' which probably had a psycological rather than physical effect. Furthermore I am not so convinced that they were doing 60-65kph through that roundabout and everyone seems to have swallowed that as gospel. As for blaming the mechanic as someone (not LA) has suggested, that is pretty pathetic. There are all sorts of forces during a crash which could account for the tire rolling which was the reason he had to swap to another bike not for the crash.

Anyway LA was dropped pretty early on the climb while sky were still on the front and I don't believe their pace setting was super hot, there were still 35+ riders in the group at the time. Astana went to the front afterwards. My inclination is that the crash alone doesn't completely explain such an early implosion.

 

[Cerberus]

Actually, I have been in that exact scenario, including having two teammates drop back to pace me back up. That's why I find so many of the comments here so ludicrous. The result was the same, by the way.

Yesterday, there was about a minute gap to make up in about 5 to 7K's. The peloton was in full throttle thanks to Team Delusional...err...Team Sky. Then Astana hits the front when the climb starts. There was no chance. I doubt that Armstrong in his absolute prime would have fared any differently. These were pretty much impossible circumstances.

Comparing it to Evan's crash 6K's into the race is just silly. Completely different circumstances, and you can't judge someone's injuries by looking at them.

Well if you could it would certainly make AS victory yesterday so much more impressive given the collarbone he broke on stage 2 as per my snapshot judgement.

 

[killermeter]

Just curious, has anyone here ever busted their a$$ at 60-65kph, gotten back on their bike and just kept hauling it to catch the next group then to be dropped once you got back on cause maybe the fall took out of you more than you thought?

Yeah, me neither.

Pics from the back of him showed a pretty beat up jersey I am going to guess his back was pretty jacked up. Most of those guys have zero padding in the form of muscle on their backs when they arrive at the tour. It is pretty tough to put power to the pedals on a climb for any length of time with your back bruised and battered

 

[ustabe]

Lance got on the podium in 2009 because of his superb conditioning for a man of 37, his exceptional determination, the support of a strong team, and a healthy dose of good luck. Every resource he could muster, except Contador's cooperation, worked for him.

Lance crawled up Morzine-Avoriaz yesterday because while he's still in superb condition for a man of 38, he's a year older, he has a few more distractions in his life, his team is a year older, and he had one stroke of bad luck that snowballed. The first resource you lose with age is the ability to recover quickly. That is what he needed and that is what is gone.

What is left to do? Have a supernatural recovery and pull himself back into contention a la Floyd Landis? With all those implications? Be a team player and continue the Tour in support of Levi and, perhaps, Kloden? Go for a stage win during the last week after the leaders are certain he's no longer a GC threat? Quite possibly. Or pack up and go home? He's done that before, too.

I do see him finishing, though. Team RadioShack was put together for his ride in this Tour and I have a hard time seeing him walk away from it.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

It's funny how all this stuff gets blown so out of proportion. Even with the crash and then basically sitting up, he still finished around 60th, even with Chavanel and way ahead of many other really good riders. And I don't mean just sprinters - I mean all around guys. So it's not like he totally phoned it in and dropped to the laughing group.

How many of those other riders who finished behind him have an ENTIRE team dedicated to supporting them and their GC hopes? That's right, NONE.

 

[pedaling squares]

Lance got on the podium in 2009 because of his superb conditioning for a man of 37, his exceptional determination, the support of a strong team, and a healthy dose of good luck.

... and soft pedaling... and a pretty easy route... and the TTT...

Lance crawled up Morzine-Avoriaz yesterday because while he's still in superb condition for a man of 38, he's a year older, he has a few more distractions in his life, his team is a year older, and he had one stroke of bad luck that snowballed.

Yeah his teammates looked like crap, riding so slowly to keep from dropping him that they barely kept their bikes upright. Especially that old Horner guy, he sucked!

 

[tifosa]

In your dreams Tifosa. Is that singular fem. for tifosi. He crashed because he was probably tired. Floyd and the WSJ article are not a factor. Simply tabloid journalism. If the WSJ was a for real newspaper they would shut up and let the authorities do their job.

If you were posing a question, and I'm make a huge assumption here, there would have been a question mark at the end of your second sentence.

Moving on.

It's not just the Wall Street Journal that is reporting about the far reaching issues of systemic doping in cycling - and that may or may not have anything to do with Armstrong - the New York Times, and Sports Illustrated have also weighed in. Too tabloid for you? What about bloggers? What about the guy down the street? The guy down the street from me, a cancer survivor, is now wondering about Armstrong. And that guy could give a f>ck about cycling. He does however, care about his personal heros.

It's the way in which Armstrong protests that is most telling. He's either greatly bothered by Landis' accusations, and therefore telling the truth, or he's greatly bothered by Landis' accusations and lying by omission.

My gut tells me Armstrong and his entourage are protesting too much. Read into that what you will. It's not as if any of us have been called as jurors - yet.

I mean, the government isn't thinking of making a Federal case out of this for nothing.

 

[buckwheat]

A post like this is like a breath of fresh air.
Whats a lot more worthy of discussion is Schlecks form, and what appeared to be ACs inability to deal with his attack for the stage win.
I'm thinking, and I'll go out on a limb here, that the AC era has come and gone. Its going to be fun.

AC's era has as much to do with dope as LA's. The same for Schlecks "form." With the revelation of LA's bs, the sport will become a lot cleaner and the racing will be more wide open.