Landis Attacks Vaughters

[hrotha]

why not? Hesjedal as on phonak with Landis and CVV, JV, Zabriskie and Creed all on USPS with Landis. why would he not stay friends?

he didn't **** in their soup as they want a clean sport

It wasn't a rhetorical question, I was asking for any info that may have surfaced about that these last few years. I don't think it's a given that they would, or wouldn't, share that kind of info with him after 2006.

(By the way, do people keep forgetting Hesjedal also rode for USPS and Discovery? )

 

[MacRoadie]

I don't hope for anything, I simply don't care one way or the other.
Simply stating a fact. Landis is exposing himself to scrutiny over his motives with Wiggins and, by Proxy, Armstrong.

And I'm saying a great many successful organized crime RICO cases (as an example only) prosecuted by the feds were/are acheived by means of testimony by some SERIOUSLY shady characters. Rapists, murderers, and all manner of violent criminals who's sole motivation is/was to avoid further prosecution, jail time, or possible death at the hands of their associates. Guys who are in REAL positions to say whatever they need to, to weasel out of trouble.

Juries are regularly capable of looking past the witness to the weight of the evidence.

Altruism, morals, motivation, all take a back seat to the validity of the evidence. If the details of Floyd's testimony (has he even been called because I don't think there's been any discussion of it) are corroberated by other sources, Floyd can say he hates Armstrong's guts and wishes he rots away in jail til it's time to go to hell and it won't matter.

 

[Elagabalus]

I agree that it seems premature for Landis to be taking shots at JV in the press if he can't offer the sort of specificity he has offered regarding the USPS/Lance allegations.

However, ignoring the particular Landis allegations for a moment, I do think this incident with Matt White and Trent Lowe must, at the very least, make people question JV's now standard operating procedure of creating the ultimate "clean team" out of guys who spent formative years of their careers at big doping programs. Even if JV is 100% committed to the clean life, does he really believe that none of his chosen riders and staff will slip up? I am not suggesting simply "once a doper, always a doper;" rather, my point is simply that I expect JV to take an increasing amount of heat for his team composition as this story unfolds. Here's an incomplete list of the building blocks of Slipstream:

Current Riders and Management
Zabriskie (USPS; CSC)
CVV (USPS; CSC; Liberty Seguros)
Millar (Convicted Doper; Cofidis; Re-born at Suanier Duval)
Hesjedal (Phonak)
JV himself (USPS; as close as you can get to confessing to doping without actually confessing)

Former Riders
Hunter (Phonak)
Creed (USPS; confessed doper)

Failures at Slipstream
Lowe
White (as DS)
Zirbel (demonstrates failure in Slipstream's pre-signature research of riders)

This proves nothing; but there may well be some explaining to do if JV wants fans to continue to believe in Slipstream.

In fairness to JV, I believe I did read an article from last year(?) where he did state that it was possible that some members of Garmin were doping. Did anybody else see that article?

 

[Sanitiser]

So it seems Lands took exception to Wiggins talking smack and JV using White as a scapegoat.

 

[Altitude]

He's pointing out the hypocrisy but maybe that was lost on you.

The hypocrisy lies within Floyd's inane ranting.

 

[D-Queued]

I agree that it seems premature for Landis to be taking shots at JV in the press if he can't offer the sort of specificity he has offered regarding the USPS/Lance allegations.

However, ignoring the particular Landis allegations for a moment, I do think this incident with Matt White and Trent Lowe must, at the very least, make people question JV's now standard operating procedure of creating the ultimate "clean team" out of guys who spent formative years of their careers at big doping programs. Even if JV is 100% committed to the clean life, does he really believe that none of his chosen riders and staff will slip up? I am not suggesting simply "once a doper, always a doper;" rather, my point is simply that I expect JV to take an increasing amount of heat for his team composition as this story unfolds. Here's an incomplete list of the building blocks of Slipstream:

Current Riders and Management
Zabriskie (USPS; CSC)
CVV (USPS; CSC; Liberty Seguros)
Millar (Convicted Doper; Cofidis; Re-born at Suanier Duval)
Hesjedal (USPS, Phonak)
JV himself (USPS; as close as you can get to confessing to doping without actually confessing)

Former Riders
Hunter (Phonak)
Creed (USPS; confessed doper)

Failures at Slipstream
Lowe
White (as DS)
Zirbel (demonstrates failure in Slipstream's pre-signature research of riders)

This proves nothing; but there may well be some explaining to do if JV wants fans to continue to believe in Slipstream.

Fixed that for you.

---

In direct conversation, JV was candid about knowing about reputations/rumors/evidence of past practices. He stated that he was very up front about this with the rider(s) in question.

Now, even if JV is scrupulous, the premise that old habits die hard is compelling.

One interesting CT-based study of 2,500 patients at four hospitals over a 6 month period yielded a recidivism rate of 18%. Those most likely to have a recidivist episode included those who consumed both opiates and alcohol. (the ultimate recidivism statistics are likely much higher than the six-month period of this test).

"recidivism rates are not found to differ among subgroups based on language, race, and sex"

Note that this is the 'hospitalized' group. Those who presumably have the greatest experiential incentive to clean up. In this case, there is no financial benefit and compounding motivation for recidivism as there is in cycling.

This was not a study of cyclists, or athletes, and cannot be directly applied to professional cycling in more than an inferential basis.

Given that opiates (Pot Belge) are long favored among cyclists (it was the JD and beer), suggests that such a group of substance abusers may also be prone to a recidivist episode.

This does not take into account:
1. Pervasive culture within the sport
2. Prisoner's dilemma
3. Livelihood tied to performance

But, it would seem logical that at least some of the previous dopers on the team would have a high likelihood to go back to their old ways.

Dave.

 

[andy1234]

And I'm saying a great many successful organized crime RICO cases (as an example only) prosecuted by the feds were/are acheived by means of testimony by some SERIOUSLY shady characters. Rapists, murderers, and all manner of violent criminals who's sole motivation is/was to avoid further prosecution, jail time, or possible death at the hands of their associates. Guys who are in REAL positions to say whatever they need to, to weasel out of trouble.

Juries are regularly capable of looking past the witness to the weight of the evidence.

Altruism, morals, motivation, all take a back seat to the validity of the evidence. If the details of Floyd's testimony (has he even been called because I don't think there's been any discussion of it) are corroberated by other sources, Floyd can say he hates Armstrong's guts and wishes he rots away in jail til it's time to go to hell and it won't matter.

Good points, but If Landis fires doping accusations out every time he reads a negetive comment about himself, it brings the validity of all his statements into question.

 

[roundabout]

I would make a guess that White knew del Moral from his USPS days so it's not a likelihood but a certainty.

 

[Sanitiser]

Good points, but If Landis fires doping accusations out every time he reads a negetive comment about himself, it brings the validity of all his statements into question.

Not really. He is not defending his actions just pointing out hypocrisy in a clumsy, angry way.

 

[D-Queued]

...
(By the way, do people keep forgetting Hesjedal also rode for USPS and Discovery? )

Nope.

Current Riders and Management
Zabriskie (USPS; CSC)
CVV (USPS; CSC; Liberty Seguros)
Millar (Convicted Doper; Cofidis; Re-born at Suanier Duval)
Hesjedal (USPS/Disco, Phonak)

Fixed that for you.

....

Dave.

 

[Digger]

The hypocrisy lies within Floyd's inane ranting.

Has Floyd not owned up?
Has Floyd served a ban and been stripped of his win?
Has Floyd not broken th Omerta?

None of the above has Vaughters done.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Added some further dates/associations: the connections are clear - USPS 2.0

Current Riders and Management
Zabriskie (USPS; CSC)
CVV (USPS; CSC; Liberty Seguros (Via Heras))
Millar (Convicted Doper; Cofidis; Re-born at Suanier Duval)
Hesjedal (Phonak) (USPS- 2004)
JV himself (USPS; as close as you can get to confessing to doping without actually confessing)
Danielson (Alluded to doping - Discovery Channel)
Roger Hammond (Discovery Channel)
Julian Dean (USPS, CSC)

Former Riders
Hunter (Phonak)
Creed (USPS; confessed doper)

Failures at Slipstream
Lowe (Discovery 07-08)
White (USPS/Discovery Channel, at Garmin as DS)
Zirbel (demonstrates failure in Slipstream's pre-signature research of riders)

This proves nothing; but there may well be some explaining to do if JV wants fans to continue to believe in Slipstream.[/QUOTE]

With JV so wishy-washy on his own doping, it is high time he address it point blank.

The tangled web he's woven, only he can untangle it.

 

[Benotti69]

Good points, but If Landis fires doping accusations out every time he reads a negetive comment about himself, it brings the validity of all his statements into question.

if you blinded your eyes and fired a doping accusation at the peloton you are more likely gonna hit something than miss, its whether you have evidence or not, but the sport hasn't cleaned up, only according to McQuaid, so why not believe Landis.

 

[andy1234]

Not really. He is not defending his actions just pointing out hypocrisy in a clumsy, angry way.

He's only highlighting hypocrisy if what he says is true.
If not, its just foolish.

 

[Sanitiser]

Yep, so we'll see if there's anything behind this.

 

[Roland Rat]

With JV so wishy-washy on his own doping, it is high time he address it point blank.

The tangled web he's woven, only he can untangle it.

+1.

The sheet-storm is coming and JV can't keep sticking his head in the sand. Time to man-up, JV.

 

[andy1234]

if you blinded your eyes and fired a doping accusation at the peloton you are more likely gonna hit something than miss, its whether you have evidence or not, but the sport hasn't cleaned up, only according to McQuaid, so why not believe Landis.

Because thats what an intellgent enlightened society does.
If I can freely accuse you of being a rapist just because you live next door to one would you be OK with that?
I will believe everything Landis can PROVE, nothing else.

 

[roundabout]

It seems that whatever Floyd had to say about USPS was valid enough to get an investigation started.

 

[Maxiton]

me i'd go back to watching pre epo era stuff and forget about everything after that.

Yeah, that does look like the better option.

 

[Sanitiser]

FLandis is like Batman. Not the hero cycling wants but the one it deserves

 

[ergmonkey]

FLandis is like Batman. Not the hero cycling wants but the one it deserves

Excellent. Thanks for that.

 

[Anonymous]

Current Riders and Management
Zabriskie (USPS; CSC)
CVV (USPS; CSC; Liberty Seguros)
Millar (Convicted Doper; Cofidis; Re-born at Suanier Duval)
Hesjedal (Phonak)
JV himself (USPS; as close as you can get to confessing to doping without actually confessing)

Former Riders
Hunter (Phonak)
Creed (USPS; confessed doper)
.

To be fair you can do that for pretty much any team.

 

[ergmonkey]

To be fair you can do that for pretty much any team.

To some extent, yes. Then again, Slipstream teams aren't supposed to be like other teams.

 

[roundabout]

It would be pretty hypocritical for Vaughters to not sign ex-USPS riders or other ex-dopers.

 

[Siriuscat]

There have been questions about Brad since 2009 about his blood levels through the tour, WE KNOW THE STORY, just no-one will admit to it. We pretty much know JV's history as well so why the shock and horror about what Floyd's said.

I get the distinct impression that Floyd is now looking at anyone who can corroborate his story but has yet to actually, truthfully say anything. I'd still back Floyd, rambling yes probably but his crusade is not over!