Landis letter re drug use in cycling

[SpartacusRox]

Frank Serpico, the retired NYC cop who famously staged a one-man crusade against corruption in the police department never took any bribes, yet he was also an outcast and for his troubles wound up getting set up by his own partners and shot in the face during a botched sting operation.

Whether the whistleblower is a sinner or a saint, they are viewed exactly the same-as rats who spit in the soup and violated the code of omerta.

Landis' credibility or lack thereof means nothing. All that matters is whether he is speaking the truth or not.

His credibility means everything, especially in the absence of any hard proof. What you have is a guy who has lied and taken money, a lot of money, from fans over the past few years to try and uphold his now acknowledged, false claims of innocence. In any court of law or deliberation the credibility of the accuser is always at the forefront of the issue. Landis has no credibility and I would be amazed if anyone would side with him, whether he is telling the truth or not. If has has sent threatening emails to event organisers and others then he may as well jump into a black hole somewhere.

If he has hard evidence to support his claims, then fine let him bring it on. But if he hasn't then he has no foundation on which to make his claims other than his say so which will be worth squat.

Your Serpico analogy does not apply here because as you say Serpico never lied or took bribes. In Landis's case he has done both and even worse has defrauded thousands of people out of money to support him in his lies and denials. As a credible witness then there is no comparison between the two.

 

[Epicycle]

The lab that tested them was the UCI lab in Switzerland

It's not a UCI lab. The lab has been closely aligned with the UCI during it's history but it is hard to tell from reading it's history page what the relationship was like in 2001. It had attained WADA level accreditation in 2000 and is currently a WADA accredited lab.

 

[Ferminal]

His credibility means everything, especially in the absence of any hard proof. What you have is a guy who has lied and taken money, a lot of money, from fans over the past few years to try and uphold his now acknowledged, false claims of innocence. In any court of law or deliberation the credibility of the accuser is always at the forefront of the issue. Landis has no credibility and I would be amazed if anyone would side with him, whether he is telling the truth or not. If has has sent threatening emails to event organisers and others then he may as well jump into a black hole somewhere.

If he has hard evidence to support his claims, then fine let him bring it on. But if he hasn't then he has no foundation on which to make his claims other than his say so which will be worth squat.

Your Serpico analogy does not apply here because as you say Serpico never lied or took bribes. In Landis's case he has done both and even worse has defrauded thousands of people out of money to support him in his lies and denials. As a credible witness then there is no comparison between the two.

I'm not sure why you continue to focus on Landis - this is out of his hands now. The killer blow (if it comes) will come from a governing body or federal agency, be it in US, France or elsewhere.

All Landis did was alert the authorities of what he saw as a problem in cycling, he didn't even leak the e-mails.

Of course, Lance, JB and all his supporters will be in full attack mode focusing 99% of their efforts on Landis, avoiding the bigger issue.

 

[Laszlo]

I wonder how starbuck and co. at TBV think of FL now ?

 

[theswordsman]

I'm not sure why you continue to focus on Landis - this is out of his hands now. The killer blow (if it comes) will come from a governing body or federal agency, be it in US, France or elsewhere.

Amen and hallelujah. Will Dr. Kay step up and say that yes, Armstrong did call to threaten him? Will there be enough specific information in the diaries that it could lead law enforcement to people still supplying doping products or paraphernalia? It might just be about finding the right person who has ulcers from a guilty conscience, or has some other reason for stepping up.

I just verified on TV guide that the rerun of Larry King Live is in just under two hours.

http://atdhe.net/tv/watch_cnn.html

 

[woodburn]

On the video of the presser, about 7.45, q - "Are you going to tell the truth if the federal prosecutors get involved in this?" A - "absolutely" (while shaking head). You want to get a body language on that answer right there.

Watch the second part of the interview and see his response to the medical waste at last year's tour. At about 40 seconds. He can barely talk to make a denial.


http://www.bikerumor.com/2010/05/20/armstrong-bruyneel-deny-floyd-landis-doping-allegations/

 

[Oncearunner8]

I wonder how starbuck and co. at TBV think of FL now ?

TBV made a post over at the DPF today. Maybe you should hit him up and ask.

 

[Race Radio]

It's not a UCI lab. The lab has been closely aligned with the UCI during it's history but it is hard to tell from reading it's history page what the relationship was like in 2001. It had attained WADA level accreditation in 2000 and is currently a WADA accredited lab.

The UCI always refers to it as "the UCI lab", but it is independent. For the last 15 years most of their business has been from the UCI.

 

[Parrot23]

I'm not sure why you continue to focus on Landis - this is out of his hands now. The killer blow (if it comes) will come from a governing body or federal agency, be it in US, France or elsewhere.

Yes. I notice too that one poster said Lance's defence so far is an all out ad hominem attack on Landis, "because that's all he's got", or something to that effect.

But there may be another motive: if serious Fed. muscle starts to investigate this (I have no idea on what basis...yet), Lance has to very careful about perjury. Lying to a federal agent is a very serious offense (didn't Marion Jones serve 6 months for perjury/lying to a federal agent)?

It's been said that a former Balco investigator/Fed official is on the case. If true, that will certainly have garnered the Lance camp's attention.

 

[Laszlo]

TBV made a post over at the DPF today. Maybe you should hit him up and ask.

sorry, DPF ?

 

[FastMatt]

If this last ditch effort does not work out for Floyd I hope he is hospitalized before he hurts himself or others.

JB and LA are already painting a picture of FL being a resentful mad man. And FL has no crdedibility at this point.

JB was working with Contador last year, I wonder what he taught pistolero about doping? Looks like the TDF will have a lot of drama unfolding in the weeks before it.

 

[Race Radio]

TBV made a post over at the DPF today. Maybe you should hit him up and ask.

I would not waste my time looking for his babble. Lots of words, no meaning

 

[SpartacusRox]

I'm not sure why you continue to focus on Landis - this is out of his hands now. The killer blow (if it comes) will come from a governing body or federal agency, be it in US, France or elsewhere.

All Landis did was alert the authorities of what he saw as a problem in cycling, he didn't even leak the e-mails.

Of course, Lance, JB and all his supporters will be in full attack mode focusing 99% of their efforts on Landis, avoiding the bigger issue.

I was merely responding to the post, the post was referring to Landis, hence my response.

There will be no killer blow as you put it unless there is some conclusive evidence that emanates from the accusations made by Landis. As I have said this will be a storm in a teacup despite some people trying their best to turn it into Watergate. No one will side with Landis which means in any commission of enquiry you will have an acknowledged liar and fraudster on the stand as a main prosecution witness. Against that you will have the CEO of Amgen presenting threatening letters from Landis that he will blow the whistle if his team does not get a ToC invite.

The claims against JB and LA will end up as Landis's word against theirs which will be a no contest, regardless of what the actual truth is.

What you will more likely have is Landis being charged with fraudulently taking money from people who trusted him.

Look, I realise that for many of the posters on here, the Landis letter is the confirmation of what they have always believed and that they would love to see certain individuals brought down and to account.

I think the reality will be that once the smoke and bullsh!t clears, evidential proof will be scarce or non existent and none of the governing agencies will wnat to fight a long and costly legal battle. For the federal bodies this is extremely small potatoes and they don't deal with hysteria only in hard facts and if those hard facts are not there they will walk away.

 

[Laszlo]

I would not waste my time looking for his babble. Lots of words, no meaning

no, I liked TBV for presenting as many sides of the case and the intelligent commentary

 

[Ferminal]

If this last ditch effort does not work out for Floyd I hope he is hospitalized before he hurts himself or others.

JB and LA are already painting a picture of FL being a resentful mad man. And FL has no crdedibility at this point.

JB was working with Contador last year, I wonder what he taught pistolero about doping? Looks like the TDF will have a lot of drama unfolding in the weeks before it.

Pistolero no need JB no Ferrari he had Saiz and Fuentes!

 

[Oncearunner8]

I would not waste my time looking for his babble. Lots of words, no meaning

I did not say to look at his babble but someone asked and I told them where he might find the guy. Easy radio.

 

[Roadent]

Janet Macur of the NYT has a new articleup - synthesizes most of the information here, but this jumped out:

Antidoping officials are trying to corroborate the information through interviews with athletes and trainers. They will retest frozen blood and urine samples taken at the time, said people briefed on the matter who did not want to jeopardize their access to sensitive information.

Per some of the comments somewhere in the last, oh, 300 posts or so. Watch out, the first story in the Times this morning is still showing as the most viewed article in the paper - Mr. and Mrs. America is very interested, and folks that have sat through baseball will be able to connect the dots here... don't think this going away any time soon, especially with Novitzski on the case.

Interesting the last line from McQuaid's stonewallling:

Pat McQuaid, president of the International Cycling Union, said he felt sorry for Landis. “The fact is that we caught Floyd Landis and, at the end of the day, we continue to catch guys that beat the system,” he said. “It strikes me that with Landis, it’s just a last roll of a desperate man. It’s unfortunate. He’s turned on us.”

(my emphasis) - yep, cozy little operation until that pesky American didn't want to play any more....

 

[Race Radio]

No one will side with Landis which means in any commission of enquiry you will have an acknowledged liar and fraudster on the stand as a main prosecution witness.

Like most of your posts you are wrong again with this. There are others who will support what he has said.

 

[Mario Cipollini]

Thanks to all for the forum and links as events develop.

As a former cyclist and global citizen, I appreciate all of your opinions and feelings about this issue, which to me encompasses a phenomenal mix of law/science/sport/media/politics/ethics/business/life (livestrong)/religion (believers) that has a footprint covering just about every continent.

I wish Lance the best with his recovery, and with the stress of having to deal with his past. Whatever the outcome, he can never be a hero of mine for the way he has lost the sense of what it is to be a human being.

Floyd may just be to Lance what Gorbachev was to the Soviet Union, I recommend Lance go onto youtube and learn from the humility in which guys like Fedor Emelianenko, Don Bradman and other great champions deal with the public eye despite the difficulties of whatever is thrown at them.

 

[Ferminal]

I was merely responding to the post, the post was referring to Landis, hence my response.

There will be no killer blow as you put it unless there is some conclusive evidence that emanates from the accusations made by Landis. As I have said this will be a storm in a teacup despite some people trying their best to turn it into Watergate. No one will side with Landis which means in any commission of enquiry you will have an acknowledged liar and fraudster on the stand as a main prosecution witness. Against that you will have the CEO of Amgen presenting threatening letters from Landis that he will blow the whistle if his team does not get a ToC invite.

The claims against JB and LA will end up as Landis's word against theirs which will be a no contest, regardless of what the actual truth is.

What you will more likely have is Landis being charged with fraudulently taking money from people who trusted him.

Look, I realise that for many of the posters on here, the Landis letter is the confirmation of what they have always believed and that they would love to see certain individuals brought down and to account.

I think the reality will be that once the smoke and bullsh!t clears, evidential proof will be scarce or non existent and none of the governing agencies will wnat to fight a long and costly legal battle. For the federal bodies this is extremely small potatoes and they don't deal with hysteria only in hard facts and if those hard facts are not there they will walk away.

What about for WADA? The members of the UCI Biopassport Committee? AFLD?

Small potatoes for them too?

 

[theswordsman]

The claims against JB and LA will end up as Landis's word against theirs which will be a no contest, regardless of what the actual truth is.

The focus isn't that narrow. According to the one story (WSJ or ESPN), Landis named dozens of riders, plus managers and owners. This isn't just a Lance story. And not everyone has the media power of LA and JB. There are a lot of people out there with information, and who knows who might have evidence. Bill Clinton had a problem because Monica Lewinsky didn't want to get her dress cleaned. Who knows what form this will take? But it sure has Armstrong's name all over the news, and it's not about racing.

 

[Laszlo]

I was merely responding to the post, the post was referring to Landis, hence my response.

There will be no killer blow as you put it unless there is some conclusive evidence that emanates from the accusations made by Landis. As I have said this will be a storm in a teacup despite some people trying their best to turn it into Watergate. No one will side with Landis which means in any commission of enquiry you will have an acknowledged liar and fraudster on the stand as a main prosecution witness. Against that you will have the CEO of Amgen presenting threatening letters from Landis that he will blow the whistle if his team does not get a ToC invite.

The claims against JB and LA will end up as Landis's word against theirs which will be a no contest, regardless of what the actual truth is.

What you will more likely have is Landis being charged with fraudulently taking money from people who trusted him.

Look, I realise that for many of the posters on here, the Landis letter is the confirmation of what they have always believed and that they would love to see certain individuals brought down and to account.

I think the reality will be that once the smoke and bullsh!t clears, evidential proof will be scarce or non existent and none of the governing agencies will wnat to fight a long and costly legal battle. For the federal bodies this is extremely small potatoes and they don't deal with hysteria only in hard facts and if those hard facts are not there they will walk away.

Landis said he has diaries from the period that will document and support his claim. Let the evidence be brought forth.

 

[Race Radio]

I did not say to look at his babble but someone asked and I told them where he might find the guy. Easy radio.

Didn't mean it to come off like that.

The TBV guy is an idiot. He intentionally did his best to cause as much confusion as possible around the case. Without groupies like him perhaps Floyd would have come clean earlier.

 

[theswordsman]

Janet Macur of the NYT has a new articleup - synthesizes most of the information here, but this jumped out:

(my emphasis) - yep, cozy little operation until that pesky American didn't want to play any more....

Thanks for the link. I didn't make it past this yet.

Armstrong said Landis had been sending him e-mail and text messages for the past couple of years suggesting that he would go public with accusations about him, and that the messages recently reached “a fever pitch.”

Bruyneel, who was also implicated in the e-mail messages, said Landis had asked him “for money, basically a lot of money” and a job on the team in exchange for his silence.

He added Landis was looking for money to pay for legal bills that were accumulating after he tested positive at the Tour de France. “Threatened, blackmailed, whatever you want to call it,” Bruyneel said.

Knowing that both these guys are accomplished liars makes this even more compelling to watch. But Lance is lousy and sticking with a story, and he also likes to say things in a way that dares people to say he's wrong.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

A few observations from the LA/JB press conference (paraphrasing from http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle7131886.ece)

LA: "Happy to answer questions"

LA: "Not going to get into specific allegations"

(contradict yourself much)

Reporter: "why do you think he singled out you and JB as the ones who got him into doping"

LA: "He didn't single me out, not true, he accused a whole lot of people, obviously its going to be me in the headlines...."

(Happy to answer questions - BS)

grrrrrrrrr


Meanwhile, in an extraordinary coincidence, both Pat and Lance are making comments about Floyd's time-line. It's almost as if they have been working on the official line together......

And just for Oncerunner8, who obviously loves calculations.....Floyd said 2.5L of blood donated.....JV said in the IM conversation that they use 800ml at a time (not the 400 or 500 that people here assumed). So, if the athlete transfuses before the GT, then on both the rest days that would be (brace yourself for the maths oncerunner) 0.8L x 3 = 2.4L. Quite similar to 2.5L. So there's one little snippet showing the story Floyd tells now checks with the off-the-record story he told years ago.

I so hope someone comes out and backs him up in a way that lends some credibility, although it's safe to say CVV is not going to be that guy