Landis letter re drug use in cycling

[Martin318is]

After re-reading the article though I question the sequence of how this all went down. Would it be possible that Lance has been in the feds' cross hairs for a period of time and that they managed to get Landis to come on their side in order to further their case?

If the feds are involved then the approach won't be fishing with a line and using Floyd simply as bait, the nets will be cast and there will be some serious trawling. But that is merely stating the obvious.

For the record, I believe the majority of the Landis claims (and the remainder I haven't seen enough detail to decide either way but will give him the benefit of doubt)

However, the first thing I thought of when it all came out was the Matt damon movie "The Informant". It just all seemed to have that feel about it.

really REALLY hope that it doesn't follow that plotline!

 

[Blakeslee]

Landis clearly would have had a lot more credibility if he had made these statements at the time he got caught instead of four years later after what was some dishonest and unethical behavior. That being said I'm inclined to believe he is telling the truth. Unfortunately by his previous actions he has made it very easy for the people whom he made allegations against to dismiss what he said, as we already saw today in the statements by Armstrong where he focused almost entirely on Landis's credibility without having to address any of the specifics of what Landis said.

There needs to be an investigation into what went on with the U.S. Postal team similar to the one we saw with the Telekom team of the same era, conducted by the cycling federations, the anti doping agencies, the press or some combination of all three. Since Landis does not have the credibility himself it is going to be up to others to try to use whatever leads they can garner from Landis to keep the pressure on the riders and management that were involved with the U.S. Postal team.

 

[La Vie Claire]

It is all fine and good that Lemond is going after Armstrong and anyone else that ****es him off but why doesn't he just come out and say that he doped. Back then I think it was mandatory for them. He should just come clean and get on with it.

Guy is just a jackass.

If Lemond doped, it must have been with the $hitty stuff. How else would he get dropped by Roche's water boy 'Cappuccino' Chiapucci?

 

[CycloErgoSum]

Morning all. You seen this yet? Video from the RS car after the crash with Lance whining before retiring:

BICYCLING MAGAZINE EXCLUSIVE: Lance Crashes, Drops Out of TOC: http://bit.ly/9mchfL

Well that shatters a few myths. Who knew Lance was prone to negative thinking and doubt like the rest of us? He's human!

JB's compassionate, the real man of steel behind the man of steel. He didn't seem to care too much about Checho Rubiera, though.

PR and marketing are the evil civilization has to rid itself of!

What a day. It's awful and exhilirating and it's just happened.

 

[VeloFidelis]

they have obviously been preparing for this for some time

You are about to witness a textbook media dismantling of Floyd Landis. Unfortunately it doesn't matter if what Floyd has stated is true or not... and it probably is. If he truly does want to come clean for the sake of his own conscience, tactically he could not have done a worse job making a case. He is going to be marginalized as a nutjob substance abuser, with anger management issues, and a vengeful agenda.

If you think he looked confused in the media spotlight after testing positive at the TDF, you ain't seen nothin yet. This is going to be painful to watch!

 

[CycloErgoSum]

Landis clearly would have had a lot more credibility if he had made these statements at the time he got caught instead of four years later after what was some dishonest and unethical behavior. That being said I'm inclined to believe he is telling the truth. Unfortunately by his previous actions he has made it very easy for the people whom he made allegations against to dismiss what he said, as we already saw today in the statements by Armstrong where he focused almost entirely on Landis's credibility without having to address any of the specifics of what Landis said.

There needs to be an investigation into what went on with the U.S. Postal team similar to the one we saw with the Telekom team of the same era, conducted by the cycling federations, the anti doping agencies, the press or some combination of all three. Since Landis does not have the credibility himself it is going to be up to others to try to use whatever leads they can garner from Landis to keep the pressure on the riders and management that were involved with the U.S. Postal team.

+1
You're dead right on everything. Nobody complained about unfair it was for Telekom to be investigated. It's only bike racing, but massive sums are involved and reputations are at stake. Let's end the sniping by exposing all to Justice (or just shoot em and let god decide? just kidding)

 

[CycloErgoSum]

You are about to witness a textbook media dismantling of Floyd Landis. Unfortunately it doesn't matter if what Floyd has stated is true or not... and it probably is. If he truly does want to come clean for the sake of his own conscience, tactically he could not have done a worse job making a case. He is going to be marginalized as a nutjob substance abuser, with anger management issues, and a vengeful agenda.

If you think he looked confused in the media spotlight after testing positive at the TDF, you ain't seen nothin yet. This is going to be painful to watch!

Yeah, playing the man is the LA axis MO. This time, it seems, some higher agencies are getting involved, which can only be a good thing. If there's a chance to get the truth out in the open, then this is it. Whomever is lying, we need to know. Call me optimistic...

 

[La Vie Claire]

I hope Tyler steps up.
Floyd is deeply flawed yet has little to gain by doing what he's done (imo).
I tend to think he's telling the truth. What does he stand to gain aside from 15 more minutes of fame (at this late date)?

Thing is, in pretty much EVERY grand tour for the last 20 years, there's been some or another form of doping.

Revamping the podium(s) is useless.
Basically, they ALL doped.

Would it be fun to see the LA brand eat doodoo?
Yes.

Is Lance the MOST EVIL DOPER of the modern era?

No.
He's one guy amidst hundreds of elite pro's.
Floyd too.

They All doped. Look at the podium/top 10 of all LA's TDF's.

Dopers, thru and thru. Most busted or deeply implicated.

And who rode the fastest average KPH tour in history?

Lemond.

did he dope?
did Hinault or Eddie do speed?

Probably yes.

bummer. It's all a bummer.

Ok, I'll state the obvious. Different people respond differently to dope. Plus, more money or better connections means better dope. It's not a level playing field. I mean, Basso and Ulrich were using a gynecologist for their prep!

Regarding Lemond's time trial, have you ever heard of this obscure force called GRAVITY? You should try riding your bike downhill sometime. I was able to hit 60mph once and I'm totally clean!

 

[CycloErgoSum]

If the feds are involved then the approach won't be fishing with a line and using Floyd simply as bait, the nets will be cast and there will be some serious trawling. But that is merely stating the obvious.

I like this extended metaphor.

 

[mftorso]

Regarding Lemond's time trial, have you ever heard of this obscure force called GRAVITY? You should try riding your bike downhill sometime. I was able to hit 60mph once and I'm totally clean![/QUOTE]

Wasn't that tour was one of the top KPH average speed, for the 3 weeks, ever?

Not just the amazing TT Lemond did to win it, but the whole 3 weeks.

 

[Ferminal]

I'm a bit puzzled by this repeated RAHRAHRAH! Is a single accusation enough to get several judicial systems in action?

Wasn't OP ignited by an admission?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Thirty more posts to 2000! Who will be the lucky winner?

I too am sure the wolves will go after Floyd, which is why I suggest he shut the phone off and find somewhere quiet to go. I recommend here:

That was not a joke. Very serious. I'm hoping he does not have a press conference, or if he does, it's very brief, with no questions. He has said all he needs to say. He needs to get away from this and let the inertia take it's own path, especially if it is being federally investigated now. He needs to get away. Home is where one is always welcome.

Fascinating video. Didn't think Lance was whining at all. He looked surprisingly down, negative, human.

 

[fruit bars with eyes]

this constant reference to 'credibility' is getting tiresome: landis won the tour during the era in question, he rode for the team(s) in question, he is describing events he witnessed first hand. sounds like a credible witness to me. except he lied before. so the argument seems to go:

lie in the past then come clean = not credible
lie in the past them keep lying = credible
bad press = not credible
sycophantic media in your employ = credible
get caught by the UCI = not credible
bribe the UCI= credible
name names= not credible
talk like a politician without denying anything directly= credible

not for me i'm afraid- i'm siding with the guys who finally reach into their souls and talk in straight lines

 

[trompe le monde]

Detroit Free Press article- Latest accusation makes it hard to believe Armstrong.
Article is decent in scope. Maybe one of the most telling quotes comes at the end, "But people who identify drug users are often other drug users."

There is a quote from Betsy Andreu at the end where Armstrong chided Frankie for being cheap and not buying into a comprehensive program. Might be an old quote for some, but I did not know this.

 

[rhubroma]

From today's la Gazzetta dello Sport:

Landis: "In 2003 I went to Girona twice: half a liter of blood was drawn from me in Armstrong's apartment. There was a small fridge with Hinacapie's and Armstrong's blood in it. When Lance went out for a training ride he had me watch the fridge to make sure the power didn't go out. Then, during the Tour, the blood was put back in."

In an e-mail sent to Stephen Johnson, resident of USACycling, Landis tells that Johan Bruyneel had introduced him to testosterone, blood-transfusion and human growth hormone (GH) in his first two years at Postal. "In 2002 he taught me how to use GH at the Dauphine Libere. At the end of the race I was flown in helicopter with Armstrong to St. Moritz. There Dr. Ferrari extracted a half liter of blood, which was to be subsequently used at the Tour. Lance explained to me the evolution of anti-doping testing for EPO and of the necessity to return to hemotransfusions.

Against Verbruggen:

Landis sustains that Armstrong confided to him the positive for EPO he had gotten at the Tour of Swizerland in 2002 (though it was 2001). Then Dr. Ferrari had warned Lance about the risks of continued EPO use given the new tests, but he still continued to take it. So when he was found positive, Armstrong and Bruyneel went to the UCI president, Hein Verbruggen, and settled upon a sum to ot make the positive revealed.

Landis said Bruyneel taught him how to take EPO in 2003, then recounts a veritable team doping at the 2004 Tour: "On our return to the hotel after the stage the team driver faked a mechanical problem, so we went down this back mountain road for an hour and so each rider was able to get his refill, a half liter of treated blood. It was the only time the entire team took doping together and not one by one. The team inculded myself, Armstrong and Hinacapie, the only Americans."

"Twice," Landis said "I got transfusions with Levi Leipheimer at the 2005 Tour," even if the two were on different teams then.

He confessed to have asked his Phonak DS, Andy Rihs, for money to continue his doping. John Lelangue, now team manager of BMC of Cadel Evans, was also informed of his request, the former then consulted with Jim Ochowitz for the ok....

It's such a great performance.

 

[python]

wow. i stay out for 20 hours and 1500 posts pile up… catching up, read only several last pages

i see a federal investigator is getting involved. good news !

im guessing he’ll be investigating illegal suppliers and enablers of the accused american riders: armstrong, dz, leipheimer…

Can someone shed more light on what exactly the federal case might involve ?

 

[issoisso]

Wasn't that tour was one of the top KPH average speed, for the 3 weeks, ever?

Not just the amazing TT Lemond did to win it, but the whole 3 weeks.

No. It wasn't. At all. It was significantly slower. As was the one LeMond won next year.

1988 - 38.909 km/h
1989 - 37.818 km/h
1990 - 37.818 km/h (that's not a typo. It was exactly the same as the previous year)
1991 - 38.747 km/h
1992 - 39.504 km/h

As for the final TT, it wasn't just downhilll. It had a tailwind 3/4 of the way.

 

[D Avoid]

You guys are like a pack of feeding frenzy parahanas.

Lance spoke today and set the record straight his reputation is much more credible than Landis. Vaughters denied it too and UCI guy slammed him. It is all just his word against theirs now so there is nothing here. Move along you worthless bottom feeder.

UCIess!!.........................

 

[craig1985]

I'm really don't know what to make out of all of this. It's a good that Floyd has finally come out, but he's now ****ed himself, and now he is a liar and a fraudster, and I'm not sure what to believe what he says that riders like Michael Barry, and Matthew White were taking PEDs (perhaps they were, I have NFI). He wasn't telling the truth in 2006, what makes me think I should forget about it and now suddenly believe him?

It's taking me a while to take this all in, and take what to believe from all parties. FTR I don't necessarily believe people like Armstrong, Bruyneel, Rihs etc., of course they're going to deny what Floyd said.

What a ****ing mess.

 

[kiwirider]

Regarding Lemond's time trial, have you ever heard of this obscure force called GRAVITY? You should try riding your bike downhill sometime. I was able to hit 60mph once and I'm totally clean!

Wasn't that tour was one of the top KPH average speed, for the 3 weeks, ever?

Not just the amazing TT Lemond did to win it, but the whole 3 weeks.

Just to set you right ...
According to letour.fr:
The average speed in '89 (when Lemond beat Fignon by 8 seconds) was 37.49km/h.

(In case you're wondering - when he won in '86, the average was 37.02km/h and in '90 it was 38.62km/h).

Funnily enough, on the palmarès page, the times and distances for most of Armstrong's victories has been zeroed out ... don't know if that means anything or not ...

Anyhow, the following is from Matt Rendell's book on the Tour:
Armstrong's Tours were all won with averages between 40.56km/h and 43.78km/h - the latter (which was 2003) is the fastest on record ...

Oh, and as for the fastest average speeds - Lemond's final stage TT from '89 has been eclipsed well and truly ... again, check out the official Tour site:
http://www.letour.fr/2010/TDF/HISTO/fr/index.html ... go to "recherche" and check out the link for "les etapes les plus rapides" ...

 

[craig1985]

wow. i stay out for 20 hours and 1500 posts pile up… catching up, read only several last pages

i see a federal investigator is getting involved. good news !

im guessing he’ll be investigating illegal suppliers and enablers of the accused american riders: armstrong, dz, leipheimer…

Can someone shed more light on what exactly the federal case might involve ?

Me too! I was online for maybe 45 minutes last night, and I didn't get to read much of the forum or the news on the front page. I'm not going to read the vast majority of the threads as I don't have the time.

 

[Roland Rat]

Not sure if this has been posted yet either, Michael Barry denies drugs use:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/artic...ist-michael-barry-denies-claims-he-used-drugs

Barry, reached by the Star after competing Thursday for Team Sky in Stage 12 of the Giro d’Italia, flatly denied he’s ever used drugs in his cycling career.

“For me ever since I was young, cycling is about the journey,” said Barry, whose father Michael Sr. ran a bike store and instilled his love of the sport. “It’s what you get out of the ride, whether it’s a bike race or a long training ride.

“That’s something my father taught me when I was a young kid. That’s always been the most important thing to me. I’ve always made my own finish line. It’s about the feeling of elation when I finish a race and to be able to sleep well at night.”

Barry said he will sleep well despite Landis’ allegations.

“I’ve always raced clean and that was the goal since I was a kid,” said the three-time Olympian. “My mother put those values into me and my mother made me promise I would go back to school the minute I felt I wasn’t progressing. Having their support has been crucial in all this.”

 

[Franklin]

Wasn't OP ignited by an admission?

OP was a different kettle of fish all together. A bigger group of people, a stationary lab. And even then AC jumped the gun.

In this case it's very different:
- A smaller group of people who have nothing to gain from openness
- No evidence in the form of bloodbags (it's a few years ago, the physical evidence is gone).
- La is a very important person.

A few more remarks:

1. If Tyler opens his mouth, does that make it any better? The guy with a ghost twin? The little credibility of that combo will be trampled. Please let someone else than Tyler chime in... anyone but him!
2. What is the source confirming the FDA investigation? I only read it here.
3. The Hog: Accusations are not evidence. If I have a history of being a troublemaker and I accuse my neighbour of being a meth dealer most likely the police will dismiss it. To be clear about this: this is a good thing.

I hope the FDA is going to research it... but like 99% of the stories: It's a lot of wishful thinking and little substance. Human-plasma, Betsy, The phone conversation, Valv, AC/OP, usually it's a huge disappointment. Considering this is a US athlete my hopes are even lower. He is a white republican hero, he will be protected.

 

[craig1985]

But wouldn't Tyler just keep his mouth shut until 2012/2013 and they can't touch his Gold medal?

 

[craig1985]

Not sure if this has been posted yet either, Michael Barry denies drugs use:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/artic...ist-michael-barry-denies-claims-he-used-drugs

Barry, reached by the Star after competing Thursday for Team Sky in Stage 12 of the Giro d’Italia, flatly denied he’s ever used drugs in his cycling career.

“For me ever since I was young, cycling is about the journey,” said Barry, whose father Michael Sr. ran a bike store and instilled his love of the sport. “It’s what you get out of the ride, whether it’s a bike race or a long training ride.

“That’s something my father taught me when I was a young kid. That’s always been the most important thing to me. I’ve always made my own finish line. It’s about the feeling of elation when I finish a race and to be able to sleep well at night.”

Barry said he will sleep well despite Landis’ allegations.

“I’ve always raced clean and that was the goal since I was a kid,” said the three-time Olympian. “My mother put those values into me and my mother made me promise I would go back to school the minute I felt I wasn’t progressing. Having their support has been crucial in all this.”

Call me naive but I tend to believe Barry there.