Last clean Grand Tour winner?

[petethedrummer]

EPO can give a season Pro a 13% jump in output. Do you honestly thing Cortisone and Testosterone can do that?

I think you could type that 1,000,000 times and he still wouldn't get it.

 

[petethedrummer]

I am not or never was a big fan of LeMond, yes after the 89 Tour, I liked him but he came to the Tour of Ireland either in 89 or 90 and dropped out despite receiving an appearence fee. Echoes of Lance last year. Difference was he received a huge amount of flak in Ireland for that and he went down bigtime in my estimation.

Lemond has been back in Ireland since then for charity cycles. Hope he comes back this year, missed out on doing it in 2009.

http://getbackchallenge.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/world-champions-for-09-event/

 

[patricknd]

EPO can give a season Pro a 13% jump in output. Do you honestly thing Cortisone and Testosterone can do that?

I will go with Andy Hampsten on this, EPO changed the sport. It took doping from a choice to an obligation.

i'm not talking about output, i'm talking about recovery, and not just recovery during a stage race but during training as well.

the whole point is that it's still cheating.

i guess if you just got a bj you weren't really cheating on your wife.

 

[red_flanders]

the whole point is that it's still cheating.

That may be the whole point for you, and I would certainly agree it's a very important point. For me it's not the whole point. The change in the sport is that cheating used to be a choice. In the 90's it became a requirement.

That's a pretty important point if your initial point is that cheating is cheating. Not having a choice but to cheat is major.

 

[patricknd]

That may be the whole point for you, and I would certainly agree it's a very important point. For me it's not the whole point. The change in the sport is that cheating used to be a choice. In the 90's it became a requirement.

That's a pretty important point if your initial point is that cheating is cheating. Not having a choice but to cheat is major.

you're right about that, but the intent of the cheater is no different.

 

[Race Radio]

i'm not talking about output, i'm talking about recovery, and not just recovery during a stage race but during training as well.

the whole point is that it's still cheating.

i guess if you just got a bj you weren't really cheating on your wife.

It appears you misunderstand the topic that is being discussed.

Of course it is all cheating, I have not seen anyone deny that. The question was if all the riders are doping how does a undoped rider win? There were plenty of clean riders in the 80's as the substances available did not provide insurmountable increase in output. EPO changed this as the advantage given by EPO was so large.

 

[patricknd]

Prior to EPO Great GT riders did well in their first Tour's, they did not drop out. Indurain suddenly becoming dominate at 27 does not make sense.

Merckx, Lemond, Fignon, Hinault,Anquetil all were on the podium or won the race by 23. Prior to EPO 27 was the start of the downside of a career not the beginning of a 5 year run.

One point I would make on EPO is it took a few years before riders, and Doctors, figured out how to use it and how to develop a complete program around it. In the early years I think the biggest asset was simple recovery. Being fresh in the third week of a GT is huge and can be the difference between 1st and 10th

It appears you misunderstand the topic that is being discussed.

Of course it is all cheating, I have not seen anyone deny that. The question was if all the riders are doping how does a undoped rider win? There were plenty of clean riders in the 80's as the substances available did not provide insurmountable increase in output. EPO changed this as the advantage given by EPO was so large.

read your words above, and then my responses afterwards about steroids.

and by the way, isn't the topic actually the last clean grand tour winner?

 

[red_flanders]

you're right about that, but the intent of the cheater is no different.

Not sure I agree, and that's in fact the difference. In a situation where cheating is pretty normal but not required, you choose to do it to win.

In the situation where there's no choice, your only intent might well be to keep up and keep your income.

That's a really different moral equation to me.

 

[patricknd]

Not sure I agree, and that's in fact the difference. In a situation where cheating is pretty normal but not required, you choose to do it to win.

In the situation where there's no choice, your only intent might well be to keep up and keep your income.

That's a really different moral equation to me.

fair enough point. i work where i do because i don't have to compromise my ethics, and that's something i value greatly. but then if that changed i'd just do something else.

 

[red_flanders]

fair enough point. i work where i do because i don't have to compromise my ethics, and that's something i value greatly. but then if that changed i'd just do something else.

And many have, choosing not to race, or race elsewhere than the european big leagues. That however doesn't do anything to solve the problem, and is a sad choice to have to make.

It points squarely to the failure of those running the sport to run in legitimately.

 

[Race Radio]

and by the way, isn't the topic actually the last clean grand tour winner?

Yes, and if it was possible to actually win clean is a key part to this topic. Most do not believe it was possible to win the Tour clean once EPO took hold of the sport.

 

[Hugh Januss]

fair enough point. i work where i do because i don't have to compromise my ethics, and that's something i value greatly. but then if that changed i'd just do something else.

There is a world of difference between leaving a job for ethical reasons and having to give up an entire profession because of it.

 

[patricknd]

There is a world of difference between leaving a job for ethical reasons and having to give up an entire profession because of it.

leaving my job would be every bit as much sacrifice.

 

[red_flanders]

leaving my job would be every bit as much sacrifice.

If you mean leaving your profession, I'd agree. Leaving a job is like leaving a team. Quitting cycling is quitting your profession.

Glad I don't have to make that choice after all the work I put into my career.

 

[ChrisE]

If you mean leaving your profession, I'd agree. Leaving a job is like leaving a team. Quitting cycling is quitting your profession.

Glad I don't have to make that choice after all the work I put into my career.

Yeah, but that's not really how it works in cycling. They know very early in their careers, or even before they choose to race professionally, that they must dope to be competitive. What we do when faced with a sudden ethical dilemma at work is not the same IMO.

And, I think most don't have a problem with it. If that is the case, other than a clean cyclist can't compete (but, one who knew what they were getting into) what are we so ****ed about? Watch it for what it's worth.

 

[red_flanders]

Yeah, but that's not really how it works in cycling. They know very early in their careers, or even before they choose to race professionally, that they must dope to be competitive. What we do when faced with a sudden ethical dilemma at work is not the same IMO.

Agreed, good point.

And, I think most don't have a problem with it. If that is the case, other than a clean cyclist can't compete (but, one who knew what they were getting into) what are we so ****ed about? Watch it for what it's worth.

Yes, always have watched it for what it's worth, with a very jaundiced eye. I think you're right again that most don't have a problem with it...and that's the problem. You can't even get into the sport without being willing to compromise yourself on this issue, so the sport is riddled with mostly people who are willing or even happy to cheat.

While cheating has always gone on, the fact that you can't compete without it (or certainly couldn't 5 years ago) totally changed the game. The opportunity for young riders who are clean and love the sport is gone. That's what sickens people who have been involved with the sport for decades, from before the 90's are so bothered by.

I watched Tyler Ferrar ride everyone into the Redmond velodrome dirt back when he was a teenager--has he been compromised? What choices was he faced with. Nothing good, I'm sure of that.

 

[Cerberus]

EPO can give a season Pro a 13% jump in output.

Do you have a link to whatever study you're getting that from? I've read other studies that give similar results, but not one on professional cyclist.

 

[Oldman]

Agreed, good point.



Yes, always have watched it for what it's worth, with a very jaundiced eye. I think you're right again that most don't have a problem with it...and that's the problem. You can't even get into the sport without being willing to compromise yourself on this issue, so the sport is riddled with mostly people who are willing or even happy to cheat.

While cheating has always gone on, the fact that you can't compete without it (or certainly couldn't 5 years ago) totally changed the game. The opportunity for young riders who are clean and love the sport is gone. That's what sickens people who have been involved with the sport for decades, from before the 90's are so bothered by.

I watched Tyler Ferrar ride everyone into the Redmond velodrome dirt back when he was a teenager--has he been compromised? What choices was he faced with. Nothing good, I'm sure of that.

Tyler Farrar was very good but had other juniors around him that were as fast or faster to push him. Most lacked the professional desire Tyler showed even as a junior. He learned serious criterium and road race tactics locally as well.
The vagaries of doping were discussed with him early on as he was offered choices to move to the "bigger" leagues. He knew who to avoid and who was not clean at an early enough age. Guess what? He still beat riders that were known jackers.
I haven't seen him accomplish anything that wasn't in his pedigree and, to put an counter point to his skills...we have local riders that can still beat him in a road sprint. He has learned how to race on a bigger venue. After all of that background I still couldn't tell you what Garmin's real scene is, however.

 

[ChrisE]

Yes, always have watched it for what it's worth, with a very jaundiced eye. I think you're right again that most don't have a problem with it...and that's the problem. You can't even get into the sport without being willing to compromise yourself on this issue, so the sport is riddled with mostly people who are willing or even happy to cheat.

While cheating has always gone on, the fact that you can't compete without it (or certainly couldn't 5 years ago) totally changed the game. The opportunity for young riders who are clean and love the sport is gone. That's what sickens people who have been involved with the sport for decades, from before the 90's are so bothered by.

I watched Tyler Ferrar ride everyone into the Redmond velodrome dirt back when he was a teenager--has he been compromised? What choices was he faced with. Nothing good, I'm sure of that.

Agreed but what if the general public accepts it as entertainment, along with the participants accepting the practice of doping? Nobody believes the movie Avatar is real either yet it is a draw. I guarantee a large portion of the players in the superbowl yesterday aren't clean, yet look at the ratings. You and others that know the truth, and have a problem with it, are probably in the minority.

But, it is against the rules as you say. At some point there may be a case to be made that doping to an extent should be legal. I was always totally against this in the past but now I am not so sure. Should it really be considered doping to "maintain" normal physical values? If hct diminishes 15% over a 3 week GT is it doping to administer EPO to maintain your normal value? When GL got the B12 shots after the Giro in 89 to bring him back to normal levels is that any different? I realize there will always be those that exceed the permissable values no matter where you draw the line, and that an excess of B12 does not have the effect of an excess of EPO, but up to the point of maintaining normal values what is the difference?

My position was exactly like yours in the past; people should not be compelled to cheat or put drugs in their body if they wish to work in a particular trade. But, people have a choice and sometimes we can't do exactly what we want to do. Riders coming into the sport totally know the deal with doping so they have a choice to make. Anything after that is their choice as well.

 

[patricknd]

Agreed but what if the general public accepts it as entertainment, along with the participants accepting the practice of doping? Nobody believes the movie Avatar is real either yet it is a draw. I guarantee a large portion of the players in the superbowl yesterday aren't clean, yet look at the ratings. You and others that know the truth, and have a problem with it, are probably in the minority.

But, it is against the rules as you say. At some point there may be a case to be made that doping to an extent should be legal. I was always totally against this in the past but now I am not so sure. Should it really be considered doping to "maintain" normal physical values? If hct diminishes 15% over a 3 week GT is it doping to administer EPO to maintain your normal value? When GL got the B12 shots after the Giro in 89 to bring him back to normal levels is that any different? I realize there will always be those that exceed the permissable values no matter where you draw the line, and that an excess of B12 does not have the effect of an excess of EPO, but up to the point of maintaining normal values what is the difference?

My position was exactly like yours in the past; people should not be compelled to cheat or put drugs in their body if they wish to work in a particular trade. But, people have a choice and sometimes we can't do exactly what we want to do. Riders coming into the sport totally know the deal with doping so they have a choice to make. Anything after that is their choice as well.

the bad part is the catch-22 aspect. peds help to compete and have a career, but they're illegal so if we catch you we take away your career.

 

[petethedrummer]

If hct diminishes 15% over a 3 week GT is it doping to administer EPO to maintain your normal value?

Yes, that's pretty much a fundamental example of doping.

 

[pmcg76]

I have been looking for this for a while now, should be of interest to the current debates ongoing in the Clinic. I am not saying this is my view also, just putting it out there as another angle on doping, make of it what you will.

This is part of an interview with former Dutch rider Peter Winnen taken from Cycle Sport Feb 2005. Winnen finished in the Top 5 at the Tour de France 3 times in the early 80s and was best young rider in 81. He retired in 1990 having rode for Capri-Sonne/Panasonic. He is very forthright on the subject of doping, his own doping, what he considers doping and when it truly changed.

On doping in the 80s:

"There was a list of things that were forbidden, and there was nothing on it that would have been a help to performance. There were medicants on this list. Was it the idea that the cyclist cannot be ill? So I developed quite a liberal view on things, It was only at the end of the 80s when we saw a product come in that really was dope, EPO"

On the practice of Hormonal equilibrium in which hormones were taken to replace those depleted by competition:

"No it was common sense. I did not see it as an immoral thing. The business is so hard that you should get treatment when you are depleted."

On the benefits of amphetamines:

"Amphetamines do not make you better, they just make you thing you are better."

Why he draws the line at doping with EPO:

"Because EPO does work, and with that you are losing the spirit of the sport. Everything before that either didnt work or was a medicine. After EPO, races became beween doctors, not cyclists."

"The myth disappeared in cycling with the arrival of EPO. Only then did doping really exist. It turned the game into something else."

On when he realised EPO had arrived:

"At the end of the 80s, I was racing in Italy and was in good shape, but even in the mountains the biggest arsehole was getting away from me and I thought whats going on."

Asked if he ever took EPO:

"No, never, I was 30 by then and my youngest kid was just born, os I thought this is it. I stopped racing and in my mind, I was turning away from cycling because it had lost its innocence."

 

[pmcg76]

Andy Hampsten interview, Cycle Sport, Feb 2005:

On the changes he witnessed in the early 90s with the introduction of EPO

"Yeah, it was discouraging because I was testing at as good or better level than I ever had in my life and training better and harder, but slowly the results were going away. I was lucky though, my doctor simpl explained to me the exact math of blood doping and how much it would help. The difference was amazing on paper, you could see that I still had the power, but since I was no longer on equal footing, I could not delive enough oxygen. I had already established myself as a rider much earlier, so there wasnt much point in doping at 32, so I decided Ito just do the best I could."


"I felt sorry for riders in the 90s as they had much tougher choices than we had in my generation. Drugs have always been around cycling, but I believe that before EPO was introduced in the early 90s, a talented rider like myself could be competitive without them."

 

[pmcg76]

Taken from Fall from Grace, the biography of Freddy Maertens with Manu Adriaens. In this section, Maertens is reflecting on a string of positive tests in the 1974 season.

"If you are taking strange things every day, then you will never finish the Tour de France. But anyone who says they can do it naturally is a liar. You have to be medically treated so you dont do something stupid of your own back. It is also true that drugs are partly a psychological matter, and in that respect every cyclist is like a small child."

"The list of banned products in cycling is hypocritical. There are products on the list that are much less harmful than others that aren't on it. It is all so confusing, it must inevitably lead to confusion"

 

[pmcg76]

Quote from former Tour de France KOM winner, 87 Vuelta winner, Luis Herrera who is still considered one of the greatest climbers of all-time. Speaking on the arrival of EPO in the peloton, he said:

"I realised things had changed when guys with fat asses were able to drop me in the mountians"