Leg strength

[Green Tea]

Cancellara probably would have won if he was there, but then even Contador has beaten him, so size does not count.

You do make a very good point about Contador, I must admit. But whats "under the hood"?.

Wiggins also put in a great showing during the prologue (Although relatively short distance for a TT).

 

[Tapeworm]

You say Cancellara has a huge aerobic engine. Do you also realize guys who rode the Paris-Roubaix who placed outside the Top 50 had higher aerobic engines (VO2) than Cancellara?...

VO2max does not correlate to threshold power, precisely.

VO2max is the peak amount of oxygen the body can utilise. However for prolonged exercise supply of oxygen (in the form of cardiac output) is not the limiter. The body will usually be able to supply more than enough oxygen.

The body's ability to supply energy and oxygen to the muscles and deal with the byproducts, lactate, metabolites etc are limiters.

Endurance cycling is biochemical, not biomechanical.

Whether weight training may somehow aid this process, through an improved ability to deal with the above, suppling more oxygen to the muscles, improved neovascularization, hormone response etc, it is NOT clear. Otherwise a simple study would have proven this a long time ago. Knowledge of human physiology and applications of this in sport are always growing, however for the moment the answer is no.

 

[Green Tea]

Tapeworm, scroll down to page 121. I know you won't have an open mind, but have a good read anyway.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5MTcORR6lvUC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=sprinter+anterior+pelvic+tilt&source=bl&ots=39iCNov-bl&sig=AKt6Se0ukptQMdUq4my60gA-Rb8&hl=en&ei=9JnoSdSSH9LLjAe-ucGbCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=sprinter%20anterior%20pelvic%20tilt&f=false

 

[Kennf1]

Like I said, I'm sold on Deadlift's/ Rise of the Dead's/ Green Tea's argument. Leg size is clearly directly linked to speed. Actually, just talking about weight lifting will make you faster. If Contador and Zabriskie would just do squats during the month leading up to the Tour, just think how fast they would be in the time trials!

 

[buckwheat]

Like I said, I'm sold on Deadlift's/ Rise of the Dead's/ Green Tea's argument. Leg size is clearly directly linked to speed. Actually, just talking about weight lifting will make you faster. If Contador and Zabriskie would just do squats during the month leading up to the Tour, just think how fast they would be in the time trials!

True, but only if they mainlined creatine.

 

[Kennf1]

True, but only if they mainlined creatine.

Exactly. And creatine helps keep you hydrated. Or something like that.

 

[Green Tea]

Like I said, I'm sold on Deadlift's/ Rise of the Dead's/ Green Tea's argument.

Your definitely on the ball, unfortunately not in more ways than the latter.

Leg size is clearly directly linked to speed. Actually, just talking about weight lifting will make you faster. If Contador and Zabriskie would just do squats during the month leading up to the Tour, just think how fast they would be in the time trials!

Just keep an open mind thats all. I don't give a monkeys if you haven't so much carried your own shopping.

One thing I would say is. I lift.... In no way am I trying to develop the size of my legs, in fact I find that detrimental. My weight training is geared towards stimulating the CNS. And, I'm not going to get into what the CNS does, motor unit recruitment, firing muscles fibres etc...

Good point about Contador. Could he have featured in the two classics won by Cancellara this year? Beaten Cancellara in the TT Medriso?. Not sure. Contadors weight is certainly one of his big weapons over 3 weeks.

I think all the top guys "have there little secrets". Something to put under the bonnet. Nothing that relates to clinic by any means.

It could be something so simple. Hell, a gymnastic exercise, a pilates exercise, an isometric strength exercise, don't knock it. Something to give an extra boost to muscle or CNS away from the bike.

 

[ihavenolimbs]

The body's ability to supply energy and oxygen to the muscles and deal with the byproducts, lactate, metabolites etc are limiters.

I assume Green Tea is just trolling for a response, and that he doesn't actually believe the foolishness that he's typing -- either that or Green Tea has never ridden a bike, or maybe he thinks he is funny? For example, I would bet $10 that Cancellara has a far higher VO2max than Contador, if measured in terms of L/min.

Contador is probably about 5.5 L/min? Cancellara is probably about 7 L/min? Wigans would be just over 6 L/min? (LA is about 6 L/min too). And as a comparison, that British rower, Redgrave, was about 8 L/min, but he was upto 110 kg at events?

So comparing relative VO2max (i.e. divided by the athlete's mass) when evaluating flat TT performance, where the CdA is similar amongst all competitors, is the wrong parameter.

 

[SpartacusRox]

Your definitely on the ball, unfortunately not in more ways than the latter.



Just keep an open mind thats all. I don't give a monkeys if you haven't so much carried your own shopping.

One thing I would say is. I lift.... In no way am I trying to develop the size of my legs, in fact I find that detrimental. My weight training is geared towards stimulating the CNS. And, I'm not going to get into what the CNS does, motor unit recruitment, firing muscles fibres etc...

Good point about Contador. Could he have featured in the two classics won by Cancellara this year? Beaten Cancellara in the TT Medriso?. Not sure. Contadors weight is certainly one of his big weapons over 3 weeks.

I think all the top guys "have there little secrets". Something to put under the bonnet. Nothing that relates to clinic by any means.

It could be something so simple. Hell, a gymnastic exercise, a pilates exercise, an isometric strength exercise, don't knock it. Something to give an extra boost to muscle or CNS away from the bike.

Hey...nobody beats FC unless he wants them to. Especially not that little Spanish runt. Paris- Roubaix...pure power, pure class, left em crying for their mama's. Boonens chin is still quivering..

 

[brianf7]

Waights are Ok out of season but cycling strengh is made up of leg speed.
that is where you need the work not with heavy loads.

You try 100rpm on hills and feel the legs after. That is what improves Vo2 max and that is where power comes from

 

[CoachFergie]

Some people clearly have no idea what the demands of a Professional Road Time Trial are or what the demands are of the last 50km of Paris Roubaix. 400-500 watts for riders with peak powers over 1000watts so nowhere near an anaerobic effort let alone requiring any strength.

Citing a video of a rider, that you heard a rider lifts weights or what you think. Dream on.

 

[STODRR]

Some people clearly have no idea what the demands of a Professional Road Time Trial are or what the demands are of the last 50km of Paris Roubaix. 400-500 watts for riders with peak powers over 1000watts so nowhere near an anaerobic effort let alone requiring any strength.

Wether lifting will help or not is debatable, but trying to say no strength is required is the stupidest thing said in this thread. Perhaps you should look up the definition of Power.

 

[CoachFergie]

Powers and Howley (2007). Power = work / time.

 

[STODRR]

Correct, and work is force x direction.

 

[CoachFergie]

And Alex has provided the figures to show that cycling doesn't require a large amount of force to ride a bike. Compared to the force required to throw a Javelin or accelerate from the start in a 100m Track Event.

Specificity!

 

[Hmmmmm]

I don't lift weights anymore. Did in the past when I was a teen and early 20s. In my 40s now, don't lift, ride 100 to 150 miles a week, oh, and I don't have a hamstring muscle in my right leg and I'm still faster than some guys who have both hamstrings, lift weights, and ride a lot. When I ride alone I focus on intervals, and have a very high pain threshold. I'm 5'9" and weigh 145 to 150lbs. I would think that some moderate weight lifting to increase strength certainly would not hurt, but it's really about training/riding, cadence, increasing endurance, focusing on breathing. In a nutshell - smart training. Having said that, some people just have more natural ability than others. That's just something that is humbling and has to be sucked up.

 

[stephens]

The reason why studies are so great is that IF weights clearly aided aerobic performance then it would clearly demonstratable. As it stands, it has not been.

Have you read Brooks' Exercise Physiology?Apparently it is a good text on this sort of thing.

Let me explain how I see it, in short: there is a certain percentage of one's max power that they can sustain for, say, 1hr. Increase that person's max power, and you increase the amount they can sustain for that 1hr since the percentage doesn't really change.

This is basically one reason why men have an advantage over women in nearly any physical activity, even those that don't require heavy lifting: even if only 5 lbs. of force is required, and clearly even the weakest individuals can do that much, a stronger individual is using a lower percentage of his strength to complete that task and therefore has more energy left over for all the other things he needs to do (metabolism, balance, thinking, whatever).

Anyhow, since it is possible to get stronger without getting heavier/bulkier, most modern coaches and physiologists believe there is benefits to endurance athletes like cyclists and runners, from lifting "heavy". (e.g., doing squats of 1 to 4 reps).

 

[CoachFergie]

Let me explain how I see it, in short: there is a certain percentage of one's max power that they can sustain for, say, 1hr. Increase that person's max power, and you increase the amount they can sustain for that 1hr since the percentage doesn't really change.

Then Chris Hoy would be the best all round rider in the World. The Aussie sprinters chased peak power, speed and strength and while they had the high peaks they didn't have the results. A high peak had no relation to the ability to ride 15-61sec at a maximal pace. Would also mean that I should be a better pursuit and Hour record rider than Chris Boardman who allegedly failed to crack 900watts while my peak is 1330.

Anyhow, since it is possible to get stronger without getting heavier/bulkier, most modern coaches and physiologists believe there is benefits to endurance athletes like cyclists and runners, from lifting "heavy". (e.g., doing squats of 1 to 4 reps).

Only if they fail to understand how specific strength is. Building a big leg press will not do anything for your maximal squat. So how do you expect a squat to help the cycling movement?

The way to get better on the bike is to find the power for your event and do specific intervals to build the power you can deliver for that duration.

 

[stephens]

You are trying to compare one guy to the next, whereas my post just mentions the change that will take place in an individual himself if he increases his own strength (while maintaining his fitness).

 

[CoachFergie]

You are trying to compare one guy to the next, whereas my post just mentions the change that will take place in an individual himself if he increases his own strength (while maintaining his fitness).

The Aussie Sprint Team made themselves faster, stronger and more powerful and their ability to perform decreased against athletes who targeted race specific fitness.

 

[stephens]

Anecdotes aren't evidence. Do you have even a theory as to how lifting weights can make someone slower? Maybe they screwed up somewhere else in their training plan. Clearly athletes need to maintain their endurance training while adding weights to that. It's not a substitute, it's an additional methods athletes can use.

 

[zealot66]

I dont think cancellara could do what he does without his weightlifting. I also dont believe Contador would improve as a climber by lifting. I think really its impossible to give a definitive answer because each person is different and how they perform is different.

I definately know that in an untrained individual, supplementing the main exercise they are in will be aided by weight lifting.

 

[CoachFergie]

So you have some studies that show that increasing maximum power in an unrelated movement (squats or deadlift) has an influence on average power in another movement.

It's not an anecdote when one has collected valid and reliable data. The Aussies collected SRM data and data from the gym. You would have thought they may have noticed that for all their "gains" they were going going backwards in the real competitions.

I have power data from the last 5 years. What is going to improve my 40km TT more...

Increase my maximum power from 1330 watts to 1340 watts.
Build my maximum squat from 100kg to 110kg
Increase my FTP from 280 to 290watts.

 

[stephens]

I'd say that if you think you could do each of those without accomplishing the others, then you are, as they say on the internet, "doing it wrong."

 

[CoachFergie]

The cover all your bases approach. Yes good luck with that. I choose option 3 as that is the one that shows real gains in performance related to the goal of riding the bike at higher power outputs.