LeMond I

[D-Queued]

Sorry, maybe cause it's late at night here or something, but I don't see the link to what you mean.

As I understand the assertion.

In days of old, when men were bold we couldn't communicate with one another. Because you had to resort to telegraph to transfer information when LeMond was riding, information about doping didn't go very far.

Now that we have the tools to converse, like the internet, we have broken Omerta. Now, if someone is doping, everyone knows about it. Instantly.

I think that was what Andy1234's 'point' was.

Hallelujah. The Interwebs have broken Omerta. By inference, if LeMond was riding today everyone would know he was doping. Even if he wasn't, I suppose.

Dave.

 

[D-Queued]

...to put a finer point on it, and finish the Limerick:

... and toilets weren't invented
... they left their load
... in the middle of the road
... and walked away contented.

In other words, the proposition that the information about LeMond just hasn't got out yet is a pile of sh*t.

But, keep shoveling.

Dave.

 

[hiero2]

Glad to see y'all are keeping the jabs under control, more or less. It's getting a bit heated, tho - let's turn on the A/C and keep it cool.

 

[hiero2]

Funny also that Greg told Paul that he was "needle adverse".
I thought I remembered Lemond saying he drew a syringe of his
own blood. . . .

He was "needle adverse" yet in 1993 he had the syringe,
the ability and knowledge to draw his own blood? Nurses
and doctors have difficulty drawing patients blood on
many occasions even though they are trained, yet a
"needle adverse" athlete draws his own blood no problem
the first time? Are we to assume it was the first time, or
had he been doing it often since, let's say, 1984 when his
coach and life long friend Eddy B. started other American
cyclists on that path? Note: I am not accusing Lemond of
blood doping, perhaps he just forgot to tell Kimmage that
even though he was "needle adverse" he was able to take
his own blood samples. Greg Lemond I know you must
read this forum, please clear this up before someone
jumps to the wrong conclusion.

Well, you've had other good answers to your questions - but I have a problem with your logic that has not been mentioned. 1st - a minor rhetorical point - why bring up "first time"? That looks like a misdirection, since it was pulled out of thin air. But that brings me to this: why is drawing one's own blood inconsistent with needle aversion? Just because something is distasteful, even to the point of nearly obsessive, does not mean that one can not do it. I hate cockroaches, but if it were a matter of survival, I think I would manage to find a way to eat them. [Gag me, but hey, when the rubber meets the road, a person can do a lot of things they did not think possible]. I see no inconsistency here, and since I see no inconsistency, it seems to me that your argument is simple dramatics to make an emotional grab.

 

[Race Radio]

Are we to assume it was the first time, or
had he been doing it often since, let's say, 1984 when his
coach and life long friend Eddy B.

You mean the guy he hardly talked to for 10 years....

Eddie was not Greg's coach. Greg turned Pro in 1980 and moved to Europe. He had a couple coaches in his Pro career, none of them were Eddie. Greg had nothing to do with the 1984 blood doping, in fact Eddie had little to do with it. The program was run by Ed Burke and Falsetti.

 

[andy1234]

As I understand the assertion.

In days of old, when men were bold we couldn't communicate with one another. Because you had to resort to telegraph to transfer information when LeMond was riding, information about doping didn't go very far.

Now that we have the tools to converse, like the internet, we have broken Omerta. Now, if someone is doping, everyone knows about it. Instantly.

I think that was what Andy1234's 'point' was.

Hallelujah. The Interwebs have broken Omerta. By inference, if LeMond was riding today everyone would know he was doping. Even if he wasn't, I suppose.

Dave.

You have hit the nail on the head, even if you we're being sarcastic...

If LeMond was riding in the days of the Interweb, his actions, would have received waaaay more negative attention.
Every morsel of data, from every incident, would have been analysed, until there were enough dots joined, to draw the Sistine chapel.

His clean reputation would NOT have been permitted to grow. Simple association to the whispering that would have taken place, would have seen to that.
Injection....doping doctor....rapid increase in form.......?..?.?..?

The legitimacy of the claims are almost irrelevant. The clinic would have had its way, regardless.

Today's riders do not have the relative personal anonymity that riders in the 80s were afforded, so comparing the amount of negative information available for LeMond vs someone like Wiggins, is nonsense.

Of course, both could have won the tour clean. Fancy that.....

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Stick that on a T-shirt. Its catchy.

Stick it in your treatment plan. It's important.

 

[andy1234]

Stick it in your treatment plan. It's important.

Good one.....

 

[ChewbaccaD]

You have hit the nail on the head, even if you we're being sarcastic...

If LeMond was riding in the days of the Interweb, his actions, would have received waaaay more negative attention.
Every morsel of data, from every incident, would have been analysed, until there were enough dots joined, to draw the Sistine chapel.

His clean reputation would NOT have been permitted to grow. Simple association to the whispering that would have taken place, would have seen to that.
Injection....doping doctor....rapid increase in form.......?..?.?..?

The legitimacy of the claims are almost irrelevant. The clinic would have had its way, regardless.

Today's riders do not have the relative personal anonymity that riders in the 80s were afforded, so comparing the amount of negative information available for LeMond vs someone like Wiggins, is nonsense.

Of course, both could have won the tour clean. Fancy that.....

What is missing from your assessment is the explosion in sophistication and prevalence of doping during the 90's. If you read the accounts, once riders began to use EPO, the speed increased so significantly that those who didn't dope didn't remain pros. That was not the case in Lemond's era as the effect the drugs of that era had on cycling speeds was not in any way similar.

Your premise continues to show the butthurt you are experiencing for having drank the Armstrong myth for so long. Honestly, I almost feel pity for you as it's pathetic.

As for Wigans, Froome, and the complete farce that is Prote...where there's smoke...

Lemond was born with more physical talent in one leg than any of those jokes have in both.

 

[andy1234]

What is missing from your assessment is the explosion in sophistication and prevalence of doping during the 90's. If you read the accounts, once riders began to use EPO, the speed increased so significantly that those who didn't dope didn't remain pros. That was not the case in Lemond's era as the effect the drugs of that era had on cycling speeds was not in any way similar.

Your premise continues to show the butthurt you are experiencing for having drank the Armstrong myth for so long. Honestly, I almost feel pity for you as it's pathetic.

As for Wigans, Froome, and the complete farce that is Prote...where there's smoke...

Lemond was born with more physical talent in one leg than any of those jokes have in both.

Wow, someone else who cannot get over Armstrong.
Every sentence seems to turn back to him.
I'm sure you will come to terms with it eventually.

Until then, keep tilting at those windmills.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Wow, someone else who cannot get over Armstrong.
Every sentence seems to turn back to him.
I'm sure you will come to terms with it eventually.

Until then, keep tilting at those windmills.

Illiteracy and mental issues. Man aren't you "Mr. Right?"

 

[andy1234]

Illiteracy and mental issues. Man aren't you "Mr. Right?"

Wow, you got me there, clever clogs.
Let's gets back to discussing "Prote"....

 

[ChewbaccaD]

BTW, I can go on for days like this. You are fighting a battle you cannot win. Here, snatch the pebble from my hand:

 

[andy1234]

We will, right after you learn the contraction of "it is," and how to use a proper ellipsis...

Don't worry, no one will suspect how insecure you are about your own intelligence. Keep diverting attention, that will do the trick.

Its nice to use dots ......... and miss out a few commas.
Try it. Not everyone is a supercilious pedant.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Don't worry, no one will suspect how insecure you are about your own intelligence. Keep diverting attention, that will do the trick.

Its nice to use dots ......... and miss out a few commas.
Try it. Not everyone is a supercilious pedant.

Googling big words I see...what was that you said about insecurity?

Here, I will help you again with your mental issues: A friend of mine once said the highest truth in the world is the spiritual axiom "Spot it, got it."

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Don't worry, no one will suspect how insecure you are about your own intelligence. Keep diverting attention, that will do the trick.

Its nice to use dots ......... and miss out a few commas.
Try it. Not everyone is a supercilious pedant.

Of course, none of this will help with the fact that you swallowed the viscous, lumpy liquid that was the Armstrong myth, and are now doing the same for Wigans.

Here's a suggestion, the next guy who transforms into a GT winner having shown no real aptitude for it previously, yea, don't believe that guy. Three strikes and all...

You haven't posted in the Froome or Porte thread yet, have you?

You're welcome.

 

[andy1234]

Googling big words I see...what was that you said about insecurity?

Here, I will help you again with your mental issues: A friend of mine once said the highest truth in the world is the spiritual axiom "Spot it, got it."

You have friends as well? And they taught you about projection?
Just wait until you are in your big boy pants.....
Nothing will stop you.

Now, on your way son.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

You have friends as well? And they taught you about projection?
Just wait until you are in your big boy pants.....
Nothing will stop you.

Now, on your way son.

Unfortunately, your's didn't...frowny face.

Aaaannnnnyyyyway, I hear you can gargle that taste out of your mouth. Please do so because we are all starting to lose our patience with your continued need to cover for your previous stupidities<-plural

 

[andy1234]

Unfortunately, your's didn't...frowny face.

Aaaannnnnyyyyway, I hear you can gargle that taste out of your mouth. Please do so because we are all starting to lose our patience with your continued need to cover for your previous stupidities<-plural

Did the gargling tip come from your Mom?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Did the gargling tip come from your Mom?

No, yours...thanks for leading with the chin.

 

[andy1234]

No, yours...

Come on master Kan, you can do better than that.
I know your Mom certainly can.....

EDIT-nice to see you updated. First response was a disappointment.
Again...like your Mom.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Well, the mods say we have to quit, and I want to be able to post on the Roubaix thread tomorrow. Thanks for the sparring.

Lemond remains the only US Tour de France champion, and he did it clean. Cross your fingers that there will still be a winner from the UK in 5 or 6 years. Good luck with that.

 

[oldcrank]

why is drawing one's own blood inconsistent with needle aversion? Just because something is distasteful, even to the point of nearly obsessive, does not mean that one can not do it. I hate cockroaches, but if it were a matter of survival, I think I would manage to find a way to eat them.

Maybe the real question isn't if Greg has a needle aversion,
or if you have a cockroach aversion, or if D-Mas has a
dentist aversion. Maybe the real question is how, why,
when, where Greg learned to draw his own blood? Let's
for a moment think what the uproar would be if say Dear
Wiggo found out BMW was taking his own blood samples
in Tenerife (and to my knowledge Sir Brad has not claimed
to be needle adverse). The Clinic would jump to all sorts of
conclusions and want to know how long he has been taking
his own blood samples and who taught him to take those
samples and why did he learn how to take those samples.

It is common knowledge that Greg's father-in-law Dr. David
Morris accompanied Greg and his family at some races
and perhaps he taught Greg to take his own blood
samples to monitor his health and fitness in a totally
ethical and legal manner. However, if this was the case,
it would be most honest and transparent to mention it in
an interview where Greg's aversion to needles was
discussed. It would also make sense to mention it so
no one would try and make a connection to other
American cyclists and coaches that employed blood
doping and intravenous administration of steroids.

 

[andy1234]

Well, the mods say we have to quit, and I want to be able to post on the Roubaix thread tomorrow. Thanks for the sparring.

Lemond remains the only US Tour de France champion, and he did it clean. Cross your fingers that there will still be a winner from the UK in 5 or 6 years. Good luck with that.

Right you are, squire.
We can continue this, the next time you wash my car.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Come on master Kan, you can do better than that.
I know your Mom certainly can.....

EDIT-nice to see you updated. First response was a disappointment.
Again...like your Mom.

I don't really know how to go any further with the "mom" jokes. I'll go ask my 10 year old and get back to you.

Past that, please provide proof Lemond doped.