That was the second stage - stifling hot. I remember it well.
The reality was that I had lost conditioning. I was psychologically stressed and Otto Jacome (his soigneur) kept saying that I was grey. And I was grey the whole year before. I had never taken an iron shot; I didn’t believe you needed them. I believed that you could get everything you want out of your food but my blood volume had gone down 60% (after the accident) and I had no ferritin stores. Otto was saying ‘Greg, you look like a woman menstruating – you’re grey.’ But I was not willing to take an iron shot.
Why wouldn’t you take an iron shot?
Greg: I was needle-averse. From the day I was born, I’ve had these chronic kidney infections…
You were needle-averse?
Greg: I had to go to the doctor to get antibiotic shots (for the kidney infection) as a kid. I remember I ran out of the office and my mom was chasing me through the forest and I’ve always (hated needles)…Especially a needle in the ****.
And that was right through your career?
Greg: Yeah.
No injections?
Greg: I’ve never had an IV, never believed you needed it – that’s where Köchli was really good but also I did my own research and unless you are on the verge of death and heat exhaustion, there is no reason to have an IV, zero reason.
There is a huge culture of the needle in cycling.
Greg: Well, they all took Vitamin B12 shots…I mean, who knows what else they took.
You never succumbed?
Greg: Never. I took a multi-vitamin if I remembered to take a multi-vitamin...It might be every six weeks.
And when you shared rooms with the French guys?
Greg: I didn’t see it.
You didn’t see any of them doing it?
Greg: No, never saw anybody…I remember my first year pro at the team presentation, my wife was sitting with Jonathan Boyer’s wife, and Jonathan Boyer’s wife said ‘Well now that Greg’s pro, he’s going to have to take drugs.’ And my wife’s like ‘What! He’s not going to take drugs. He’d rather quit.’ And she got up and said ‘You are so ****ing naïve…you are a stupid naïve *****.’
Kathy: Yes, I do recall that. It shocked me. I don’t remember if she called me a ***** but she did go off on me that I was ‘f’ing naïve.’ I also responded that, ‘We agreed that Greg isn’t going to use drugs. He’ll ride pro until he is 23 and if he can’t make it we’ll go home.’
So you didn’t see it with Renault?
Greg: No.
But you were aware of the culture?
Greg: Yeah, but it didn’t matter to me.
Okay, go back to the Giro and the Lavaredo?
Greg: Okay, so Yvan Van Mol, whom I had never met, was coming down to see the riders and Otto had been pushing me to go and see a doctor to get my blood levels checked. And honestly, I know that if you eat right you should be able to take iron in, and I ate a lot of red meat so I was like ‘Otto, I don’t feel like doing it.’ Part of it was that I didn’t believe that was my problem; and I don’t believe that was the only thing that changed for me there. But I believe it helped, no doubt, because my iron stores were zero. So Yvan took a blood test and said ‘Well, three shots are not going to hurt you. But it’s a treatment of three. And you need it today, three days and three days.’
Now years later, when Armstrong called you and accused you of doing EPO, he mentioned Van Mol. But I always understood that it was Otto Jacome who gave you the injection?
Greg: It was Van Mol.
Because Otto didn’t do any of that?
Greg: No, but he (Van Mol) left me with two more iron (injections) and I had to figure out how to get Otto to help me, because I could not do it myself. And even when Yvan was trying to give it to me, I walked around the room four times. But I watched everything he did and it was iron.
And you got the first injection on the night after the Lavaredo stage?
Greg: Yeah, I think it was at Lavaredo. Because I had called Kathy after Lavaredo…was the next day when it was cancelled?
No, there was the really snowy mountain stage and then the split stage and then the next day was cancelled.
Kathy: I was there for that.
Greg: But Tre Cime di Lavaredo was the day I lost 17 minutes and I called you…
Kathy: I was at home for that and then I flew over.
Greg: I was just trying to figure out when I had the iron shot.
Kathy: You got it…I was there, in the room.
Greg: So that was two days later?
Kathy: Yeah. But it is…we feel the same about the iron shot and the climate and all the questions about that. Even now, in hindsight, I can see why people ask ‘Are you sure?’ Even John Wilcockson writes about it! But people were there, (Wilcockson) was there. If you are doing something illicit, you are not going to have a journalist standing in the room.
Greg: If you’re doing something you don’t tell everybody. I just talked about it because…Why did I start feeling good? I don’t know. Maybe it was the pressure…maybe it was because I’d had some iron that I needed, because if you don’t have iron, you cannot bind oxygen. With no iron, there is nothing to bind. And then I had two days of rest which were critical.
So that would have been the cancelled stage (the 16th stage was cancelled due to a landslide on the Gavia) and the short mountain time trial?
Greg: Yeah. I mean, once you get into a three week stage race, and you’re bad, it’s really hard to get better unless you have a couple of days rest. Psychologically I imploded. I let a big pressure valve off with Kathy and already I felt better.
Kathy: The stress relief was huge. The baby was going to be okay. We decided ‘You know what? If you’re done, you’re done. It’s okay. We’ll be fine.’ Even if it meant we were going to go back and I’d work at the grocery store. I said ‘I’m okay if you stop. It’s okay, you don’t have to do this, but just make sure you gave it everything you could so you don’t have regrets.’ And I think that was good. But knowing him now, if I had put additional pressure on him, that was the end.
Greg: After Tre Cime di Lavaredo I started feeling better, and then I had two rest days. I did the (mountain) time trial with no warm-up, just did it – it was like a 30 minute time trial. And then the next stage was the first stage when I thought ‘Oh, my legs are good.’ I was riding better; instead of getting dropped I was able to stay in the front group and you can just tell when you are getting your power back but I had no clue where I stood. Typically, if you’re in a stage race like that and you’re out of it, it’s hard to push yourself in a time trial unless you are in the game. So I tried to (test myself) and José de Cauwer wanted me to do it too. He said ‘Just test where you’re at.’
This was the Giro’s final time trial in Florence?
Greg: Yeah. I know how I do time trials when I’m in good shape; I don’t want a split, I don’t want anything, I just go 100%. And I took off and I caught rider after rider and it felt good. I thought ‘I don’t know how anybody is going to beat me’ because I had a really good day and I ended up getting second (to Lech Piesecki) and I beat Fignon by about a minute and twenty-one seconds. That gave me a little hope but I had no confidence for the Tour. Zero. I mean, climbing…
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