LeMond I

[Netserk]

It is French.

No it's not, and I'd guess you know it, since you're Dutch

 

[pmcg76]

So there was no blooddoping according to you on PDM in the 1988 Tour team?

[PDM had a not normal year, to say the least]

All long ago but for me Parra was the winner of that Tour, with Bauer and Boyer next to him on the podium.It is French.

Well that's the catch really. If they were blood-doping as we know it, they should have been finishing a lot further ahead of a guy like Bauer who was another rider who was considered clean and spent a large part of his career riding for Kochli teams.

I would like to say here that Kochli and his team are the reason I believe LeMond may have been clean. Everything I have ever heard about Kochli indicated that he was very anti-doping and this was a fundamental element of his Weinmann/Helvetia team. I look at the riders who followed Kochli from Toshiba to his Swiss team(Bauer, Ruttimann, Winterberg, LeClercq) and think those guys were sticking with him for a reason. Thus if a Kochli rider could get 4th in the Tour doing it cleanly, why couldn't a clean rider win it???

Whilst I wouldn't deny the possibility of blood doping, without further information its hard to say what PDM were doing exactly. The bag's of blood appear on one page of the notebook but not the other page. I would imagine if they were blood doping, it was very rudimentary.

Looking at this logically, if they were blood doping in 88 and it was effective, surely the practice would have spread like EPO did. Why would PDM be the only team doing a practice that is undetectable and efficient. These are athletes whose mindset would be that they would try anything if it made them go faster. Obviously there was the storage problems etc but if it worked for PDM at the Tour, why stop???

I doubt Panasonic was a haven of cleanliness when 'the twins' moved there in 1990 so would they really have drawn the line on types of doping.

 

[Race Radio]

So there was no blooddoping according to you on PDM in the 1988 Tour team?

[PDM had a not normal year, to say the least]

All long ago but for me Parra was the winner of that Tour, with Bauer and Boyer next to him on the podium.It is French.

Given that the only "evidence" is some 25 year old notes by a massage therapist I doubt it.

PDM's doping program has been exposed for decades. Riders, doctors, court cases. Plenty of people directly involved have told their story. None say they used, or knew of the use, of transfusions. It seems odd that Rooks wrote a book that detailed his drug use, including EPO, but says he never took a transfusion

 

[ChrisE]

But it's not working.
The bandwidth is free, he can waste as much as possible on their meaningless 'facts'.

He is attempting to say that there is some standard for others that is not being applied to LeMond. So, they should not be discouraged from posting but in fact encouraged to do so. The only one getting riled is themselves.

Fact: GL beat dopers
Fact: Champions have been doping in the sport forever, supposed not just for **** and giggles
Fact: Other than obscure interview about PDM AFTER he won the tour in 89, GL was mostly quiet about doping until 2001
Fact: No OOC testing occurred during the 80's
Fact: GL has changed his tune over the years many times, from losing because of a disease until the current incarnation about losing because of EPO
Fact: media and social media especially did not exist in the 80's like it does now, exposing dopers and doping and pressuring MSM
Fact: GL is the enemy of LA, ergo the above facts fly away like a fart in the wind for the clinic cult
Fact: According to the clinic, GL aka Superman! overcame rubes doping (for apparently for no benefit) on powerbars, water, and iron shots
Fact: GL was LA supporter until 2001, while supposedly the cycling media rolled their eyes in 99 TdF press room

Here is our hero in happier times, when life was so much simpler.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Fact: GL beat dopers
Fact: Champions have been doping in the sport forever, supposed not just for **** and giggles
Fact: Other than obscure interview about PDM AFTER he won the tour in 89, GL was mostly quiet about doping until 2001
Fact: No OOC testing occurred during the 80's
Fact: GL has changed his tune over the years many times, from losing because of a disease until the current incarnation about losing because of EPO
Fact: media and social media especially did not exist in the 80's like it does now, exposing dopers and doping and pressuring MSM
Fact: GL is the enemy of LA, ergo the above facts fly away like a fart in the wind for the clinic cult
Fact: According to the clinic, GL aka Superman! overcame rubes doping (for apparently for no benefit) on powerbars, water, and iron shots
Fact: GL was LA supporter until 2001, while supposedly the cycling media rolled their eyes in 99 TdF press room

Here is our hero in happier times, when life was so much simpler.

A lot of 'facts' there Chris, although very few have anything to do with LeMond unless it is his fault for not building twitter

To the ones that he has something to do with:
Here is an interview from right before Festina in 98 where he discusses doping. So again your hangup on 2001 is wrong.

As for Greg being a supporter of LA while the press room laughed, well Greg wasn't at that Tour, nor in the press room.
And of course being a clean winner means that he could assume that Lance did it clean. Until he found out that LA was working with Ferrari, in 2001.

So, the only fact is that your foto above has a multiple Tour winner and a disgraced fraud.

 

[hiero2]

You intervened in your capacity as mod to suggest that people were making too much of the needle discrepancy. . . .

I make an effort to point out my status when I am posting as mod. I think whatever you are referring to is a post by me as a poster. Take a look. Did I say I was posting as mod? I haven't had an issue with misunderstandings yet, but if they occur, I can always add something like this to my sig: "All my posts as mod will be in RED", or blue, maybe. Less drama in blue.

The comments were placed in this forum. Not sure why that's difficult for you to grasp. Similarly, the interview was posted to this forum . . .

I would suggest you re-read the exchange, starting with the guy I was responding to. I've already said this once - this IS a forum, the INTERVIEW was not. That has not changed.

--and even if it weren't, once a public figure allows their words--willingly--into the public domain, they're subject to scrutiny. I have no idea why you're sticking so hard on this.

I'll repeat myself again - no, on 2nd thought, I won't. Please reread the exchange to discover what you either misread or are misinterpreting.

Equally, if you didn't see a polemic in RR's introduction of the interview that he posted than I can't help you.

With this statement, I think it becomes very clear that you did not read the full text that was written.

Moreover, the "numbingly simple" remark was directed at BroDeal, who waded in to stir *** and nothing else. If he, RR, or you for that matter--instead of wandering around in your circuitous "aw shucks" prose style, which you've recently dropped in favor of something more direct and incisive--were unclear on the meaning, then you or they could have asked for clarification. No one did--because it frankly wasn't an issue until you gave license. So don't be coy in the first instance and indignant and self aware in the second.

Aw, shucks, dude - haven't you ever heard of writing for the audience? I write here for fun - so I use several styles. Aw, shucks could be one. Colloquialisms can be quite useful. I've used Scots, northern midwest (US/Canada), midsouth (US), and beach community (US, both coasts) dialects here. New England doesn't translate into written form. I've come by all of those honestly.

They tend to be understood better by general audiences than the more obscure, literary style of, say, Conrad. If I could remember the names of the 2 authors I've read who actually USED the word cachinnation, I'd drop their names as an example of someone using a fancy word when simple ones would do the job better. But, in all my years, I've only ever seen the word used twice, as I said. Once was annoying, the 2nd pretentious.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I see that GL and the great hospital room stenographer are in Austin next week to spread some whine on some cheese. Maybe I will run over there and check this out in person so I too can taste the koolaid.

I think you should go on down, in fact I wish I could go with you, if only to see you get your a$$ handed to you by a woman. You should probably give up on the side of this thing that you have somehow bought into arguing from, because it is weak and getting weaker.
It really is OK to admit when you are wrong.
And I say this with all due respect.

 

[aphronesis]

I make an effort to point out my status when I am posting as mod. I think whatever you are referring to is a post by me as a poster. Take a look. Did I say I was posting as mod? I haven't had an issue with misunderstandings yet, but if they occur, I can always add something like this to my sig: "All my posts as mod will be in RED", or blue, maybe. Less drama in blue.



I would suggest you re-read the exchange, starting with the guy I was responding to. I've already said this once - this IS a forum, the INTERVIEW was not. That has not changed.

I'll repeat myself again - no, on 2nd thought, I won't. Please reread the exchange to discover what you either misread or are misinterpreting.

With this statement, I think it becomes very clear that you did not read the full text that was written.



Aw, shucks, dude - haven't you ever heard of writing for the audience? I write here for fun - so I use several styles. Aw, shucks could be one. Colloquialisms can be quite useful. I've used Scots, northern midwest (US/Canada), midsouth (US), and beach community (US, both coasts) dialects here. New England doesn't translate into written form. I've come by all of those honestly.

They tend to be understood better by general audiences than the more obscure, literary style of, say, Conrad. If I could remember the names of the 2 authors I've read who actually USED the word cachinnation, I'd drop their names as an example of someone using a fancy word when simple ones would do the job better. But, in all my years, I've only ever seen the word used twice, as I said. Once was annoying, the 2nd pretentious.

You're making this about you-- whether poster or mod--when it's a thread about LeMond. Waste of time. Your reading tastes and writing proclivities are of zero interest to me. Similarly, the fact that we disagree doesn't mean I didn't read something; it means we disagree. All caps, repetitions and personal digressions won't change that.

 

[andy1234]

How do you know? you've alluded to it many many times here, yet have still not posted any of the "facts" you keep going on about that you have.



Once again, you're misinformed. I didn't "forget" anything, I said earlier(which you again failed to comprehend), that i didn't consider him to havr raced in '88, since he didn't ride the Tour , the Roubaix, and other races. Only a handful, and it wasn't "throughout the season", it was a handful of races, scattered throughout that he mostly DNF'd because of what reason? the gunshot wound. I'm well aware of EVERY team he's ever ridden for, and the years.






Ah, but you have in a "wink wink, nudge nudge" sort of way, then you said you didn't, then you say you did, and now you say you didn't again.


.


Well, you DID say you were a "Lemond Expert" did you not? you've gone on and on so much about how he "kinda sorta doped", alluded to it many times, then when folks called you out on it, you ran for the hills. You don't know much about LeMond, despite your contradictory opinion. if you did know about LeMond, you'd know that he isn't a doper, and you'd know all of this other stuff w/o having any of us having to point it out to you several times. You have no "level of experience" with anything, since you've refused to post anything of relevance, or to back up your fallacy/claims that LeMond somehow should be:

A) Scrutinized(when folks have asked you what about, you disappeared)

B) When LeMond supposedly doped(see response to answer A)

Read the posts back, you will see this is true.



Well, what proof either way do you nhave to back up this statement, since it's so "obvious"?




What " actual events" involving LeMond have you commented on? We've asked you ad nauseum to post your "facts", yet you've still failed to do so.




Nor is it our problem that you're clearly and "obviously" misinformed on all things related to LeMond, and you know less about much here, then you claim to.



Yes, of which you still don't understand.

There are so many things wrong with your post, I cant even be bothered to respond. It's just an angry rant.
But to help you out, when you use quote marks "" it's to quote something someone actually said, not what you thought they said, or wished they had said.
I'll let you continue your imaginary argument, against imaginary points though, if it keeps you quiet.

 

[andy1234]

Given that the only "evidence" is some 25 year old notes by a massage therapist I doubt it.

PDM's doping program has been exposed for decades. Riders, doctors, court cases. Plenty of people directly involved have told their story. None say they used, or knew of the use, of transfusions. It seems odd that Rooks wrote a book that detailed his drug use, including EPO, but says he never took a transfusion

Indeed, evidence from a lowly massage therapist. A massage therapist supplying testosterone, cortisone and blood bags.....

It is odd that riders don't confess to everything, even when busted. Does Riis mention tranfusions in his book?

"Blood bag" might have meant something else, but it would be a strange phrase to use for anything other than,well, a blood bag.
As you said, it could have been saline, but that brings up the question of why no one else has that entry next to their name, when it was such a common practice. Saline is also a common word in both Dutch and English, Writing saline would much make more sense than "blood bag"

I agree to your point that a plasma infusion might be referred to as a blood bag, but I also don't recall plasma infusions being in practice in the 80s, maybe you know different?

 

[rata de sentina]

koolaid.

Well we would have to bow to the acknowledged expertise of a long standing connoisseur such as yourself.

 

[ChrisE]

I think you should go on down, in fact I wish I could go with you, if only to see you get your a$$ handed to you by a woman. You should probably give up on the side of this thing that you have somehow bought into arguing from, because it is weak and getting weaker.
It really is OK to admit when you are wrong.
And I say this with all due respect.

What was I wrong about???

"A$$ handed to me by a woman". How sexist of you, my liberal friend. I remember the jackass movie with the skit "a$$ kicked by a woman" when Ryan Dunn got beat up by the chick kickboxer. Somehow I doubt it would be that traumatic to me.

On second thought, I think I will save the gas money and stay home. I am sure I can hear the screeching, mixed in with some 'blah blah' from GL, 200 miles away.

 

[Race Radio]

I agree to your point that a plasma infusion might be referred to as a blood bag, but I also don't recall plasma infusions being in practice in the 80s, maybe you know different?

Yes, they were used. Especially during the Tour. A good friend on his first season with 7-11 told me a story of walking into the wrong hotel room at a race to see another teams riders hooked up to drips.

 

[andy1234]

Yes, they were used. Especially during the Tour. A good friend on his first season with 7-11 told me a story of walking into the wrong hotel room at a race to see another teams riders hooked up to drips.

Saline drips yes, but plasma drips?
It's not something I recall, but who knows.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Well that's the catch really. If they were blood-doping as we know it, they should have been finishing a lot further ahead of a guy like Bauer who was another rider who was considered clean and spent a large part of his career riding for Kochli teams.

Well, I think you cant compare the high tech blood programs we know of by now with the practices of the eighties. But, to me, and a lot of others, it is clear that PDM were on the forefront of doping practices.

What the 'bag of blood' exactly is whe cant be sure of, havent seen an interview with the man, dont even know if he is still alive. He has stated he didnt want to mess with epo, some 10 years ago, so, messing with blood would seem strange. But, hey, in cycling you never know.

I would like to say here that Kochli and his team are the reason I believe LeMond may have been clean. Everything I have ever heard about Kochli indicated that he was very anti-doping and this was a fundamental element of his Weinmann/Helvetia team. I look at the riders who followed Kochli from Toshiba to his Swiss team(Bauer, Ruttimann, Winterberg, LeClercq) and think those guys were sticking with him for a reason. Thus if a Kochli rider could get 4th in the Tour doing it cleanly, why couldn't a clean rider win it???

Well, there was a certain Kim Anderson on la Vie Claire

Winterberg tested positive in 1992.
Jeff Bernard was not afraid of cortisone according to Peter Winnen:
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...him-relating-to-his-time-with-Lotto-team.aspx

''According to NRC, Jean Francoise Bernard also suffered from the effects of cortisone usage during the 1987 Tour de France. It quotes former pro Peter Winnen, who explained the circumstances.

“In 1987 there was a time trial on the Mont Ventoux. Stephen Roche against Jeff Bernard. The soigneurs of their teams spoke to each other. The soigneur of Roche lied: ‘We're going to completely pump full with cortisone.’” Winnen explained. “And so Bernard’s soigneurs made him fully loaded with it. Bernard won the time trial, but the next day was blocked. That's the way with cortisone: you ride a hard day and then you're ****ed up. Roche attacked while Bernard was blocked and won the Tour. Hahahaha.”

But I agree on Kochli, he certainly was not pro - doping. Forced out of the sport, just like Guimard, Post.

Looking at this logically, if they were blood doping in 88 and it was effective, surely the practice would have spread like EPO did. Why would PDM be the only team doing a practice that is undetectable and efficient. These are athletes whose mindset would be that they would try anything if it made them go faster. Obviously there was the storage problems etc but if it worked for PDM at the Tour, why stop???

Who says other teams werent doing it in 1988? Dottore Ferrari for instance, was practising at Chateau d'Ax already, where were other alchemists in those days? We know Indurain was working with Conconi from 1987 onwards, was he not working with Perico? Fuentes was working at Caja Rural - Orbea, a small fish back then.

I doubt Panasonic was a haven of cleanliness when 'the twins' moved there in 1990 so would they really have drawn the line on types of doping.

I do believe, if I am wrong I will be glad to admit, Panasonic and the Raas team were 'backwards' with regards to doping. Oldschool stuff. On the other hand, Peter Janssen, doc at PDM, moved to Panasonic in 1990, he was/is a known man for balancing hormones and hematocrits, to keep a rider healthy. Where does one draw the line?

Yes, they were used. Especially during the Tour. A good friend on his first season with 7-11 told me a story of walking into the wrong hotel room at a race to see another teams riders hooked up to drips.

What exactly is a plasma infusion?

 

[andy1234]

Apologies if this has been posted before. Its a NYT article from 1991.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/u...to-athletes-deaths.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm


"I began hearing about EPO two to three years ago through the grapevine in running circles," said John Treacy, a silver medalist in the 1984 Olympic marathon. "The story was there was this new drug that would take over from blood doping, and that it was much better."

Len Pettyjohn, coach of the Coors Light cycling team, which is competing in the 11-day Tour Du Pont in the Middle Atlantic States this week, said: "We've all heard about EPO. I could only speculate on its use now, but it wouldn't surprise me. I don't think any Americans are using it, but anybody doing something like that is certainly not going to talk about it." Education Program Started

Jan Gisbers of the Netherlands, coach of the PDM team, which is also competing in the race, said he had not heard of anyone in cycling using the drug. Any rider on his team who used any medical substance without the approval of the team's doctors would be dropped from the team, he said.

 

[GJB123]

Apologies if this has been posted before. Its a NYT article from 1991.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/u...to-athletes-deaths.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm


"I began hearing about EPO two to three years ago through the grapevine in running circles," said John Treacy, a silver medalist in the 1984 Olympic marathon. "The story was there was this new drug that would take over from blood doping, and that it was much better."

Len Pettyjohn, coach of the Coors Light cycling team, which is competing in the 11-day Tour Du Pont in the Middle Atlantic States this week, said: "We've all heard about EPO. I could only speculate on its use now, but it wouldn't surprise me. I don't think any Americans are using it, but anybody doing something like that is certainly not going to talk about it." Education Program Started

Jan Gisbers of the Netherlands, coach of the PDM team, which is also competing in the race, said he had not heard of anyone in cycling using the drug. Any rider on his team who used any medical substance without the approval of the team's doctors would be dropped from the team, he said.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this one has also been done to death. Look it up either in this thread or in the thread about when EPO hit the peloton.

 

[D-Queued]

What was I wrong about???

<Fiction and demeaning statements>

Everything.

Including the fact that Betsy said to Lance, 'we should leave'.

He told them to stay.

So, yes, she would have preferred to have not been in the room. And, even suggested that they not be in the room.

But, you are the one who really wishes things had turned out that way.

Because, of course, nobody else would have exposed Lance for the greatest fraud in sport that he is.

BTW - this is a thread about LeMond.

Dave.

 

[pmcg76]

Well, I think you cant compare the high tech blood programs we know of by now with the practices of the eighties. But, to me, and a lot of others, it is clear that PDM were on the forefront of doping practices.

What the 'bag of blood' exactly is whe cant be sure of, havent seen an interview with the man, dont even know if he is still alive. He has stated he didnt want to mess with epo, some 10 years ago, so, messing with blood would seem strange. But, hey, in cycling you never know.

Well, there was a certain Kim Anderson on la Vie Claire

Winterberg tested positive in 1992.
Jeff Bernard was not afraid of cortisone according to Peter Winnen:
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...him-relating-to-his-time-with-Lotto-team.aspx

''According to NRC, Jean Francoise Bernard also suffered from the effects of cortisone usage during the 1987 Tour de France. It quotes former pro Peter Winnen, who explained the circumstances.

“In 1987 there was a time trial on the Mont Ventoux. Stephen Roche against Jeff Bernard. The soigneurs of their teams spoke to each other. The soigneur of Roche lied: ‘We're going to completely pump full with cortisone.’” Winnen explained. “And so Bernard’s soigneurs made him fully loaded with it. Bernard won the time trial, but the next day was blocked. That's the way with cortisone: you ride a hard day and then you're ****ed up. Roche attacked while Bernard was blocked and won the Tour. Hahahaha.”

But I agree on Kochli, he certainly was not pro - doping. Forced out of the sport, just like Guimard, Post.

Who says other teams werent doing it in 1988? Dottore Ferrari for instance, was practising at Chateau d'Ax already, where were other alchemists in those days? We know Indurain was working with Conconi from 1987 onwards, was he not working with Perico? Fuentes was working at Caja Rural - Orbea, a small fish back then.

I do believe, if I am wrong I will be glad to admit, Panasonic and the Raas team were 'backwards' with regards to doping. Oldschool stuff. On the other hand, Peter Janssen, doc at PDM, moved to Panasonic in 1990, he was/is a known man for balancing hormones and hematocrits, to keep a rider healthy. Where does one draw the line?What exactly is a plasma infusion?

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression but La Vie Claire/Toshiba was not a Kochli team, he was DS there but it was not his team the way Weinmann/Helvetia were. He is on record as saying that La Vie Claire was already created when he arrived so he didn't have total control over everything there including the riders and that is why he wanted to have control of this own team, hence Weinmann. That is what I meant when I said those guys followed Kochli to "his" team as it was clear what they were getting.

On La Vie Claire, owner/crook Bernard Tapie once said the only riders on the team he could be assured that didn't dope was LeMond and Hampsten. Considering who Tapie was, that statement might we worth nothing in context.

 

[andy1234]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this one has also been done to death. Look it up either in this thread or in the thread about when EPO hit the peloton.

I'm not sure what bubble has been burst exactly....
However, thanks for the update

 

[GJB123]

I'm not sure what bubble has been burst exactly....
However, thanks for the update

The first question would be why you bring this up in a thread about LeMond. Do you have indication he sued EPO? Are you trying to suggest he might or could have used EPO by providing a timeline? And don't tell me you were not trying to invent some more dots to connect LeMond to PED-abuse, because your intentions are crystal clear for anybody with half a working brain. Now do some searching and you will see this has been debunked and consequently this little bubble yours has been well and truly popped.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression but La Vie Claire/Toshiba was not a Kochli team, he was DS there but it was not his team the way Weinmann/Helvetia were. He is on record as saying that La Vie Claire was already created when he arrived so he didn't have total control over everything there including the riders and that is why he wanted to have control of this own team, hence Weinmann. That is what I meant when I said those guys followed Kochli to "his" team as it was clear what they were getting.

On La Vie Claire, owner/crook Bernard Tapie once said the only riders on the team he could be assured that didn't dope was LeMond and Hampsten. Considering who Tapie was, that statement might we worth nothing in context.

I am not disputing Kochli, maybe I did not make that clear. His role, thanks to Tapie, in 1995 was not so nice, but hey, Hinault needed that fifth.

The first question would be why you bring this up in a thread about LeMond.

Because peeps give him a podium...

Ignore the troll posts, investigate the things that are to invesigate, but that should be in the PDM topic, not here.

 

[andy1234]

The first question would be why you bring this up in a thread about LeMond. Do you have indication he sued EPO? Are you trying to suggest he might or could have used EPO by providing a timeline? And don't tell me you were not trying to invent some more dots to connect LeMond to PED-abuse, because your intentions are crystal clear for anybody with half a working brain. Now do some searching and you will see this has been debunked and consequently this little bubble yours has been well and truly popped.

You are right, its probably in the wrong thread.
It was more of a follow up, to the PDM blood bag discussion.

If I were to suggest anything, it would be that LeMond, more than likely, beat riders using blood bags or EPO in 89 and 90.
That would mean his wins are all the more impressive or suspect, depending on whether you believe clean riders can compete with blood doped riders...

I'm on record already, with what I believe.

Now, wind your neck in

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

You are right, its probably in the wrong thread.
It was more of a follow up, to the PDM blood bag discussion.

I'll meet you there then?

 

[andy1234]

I'll meet you there then?

Lead the way....